Irish Stout Ode To Arthur, Irish Stout (Guinness Clone)

400d said:

I have some questions:

1. Can I use 0.5 tsp of baking soda in mash?
2. Can I roast my own barley and get a decent ingredient for this brew?
3. Should I crush flaked barley?

thanks

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1. Why?
2. No. You'd end up with a very burnt product. Roasted barley is a unique breed.
3. No need. But make sure to use rice hulls to help prevent a stuck sparge.

BierMuncher said:

1. Why?
2. No. You'd end up with a very burnt product. Roasted barley is a unique breed.
3. No need. But make sure to use rice hulls to help prevent a stuck sparge.

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hm, I've seen some recipes for stout with baking soda, not sure what it is for, probably has to do something with water adjustment...

I've read about home made roasted barley, some people did it, so I thought why not give it a try. If this is true, what you're saying, than I have to make this stout without roasted barley.... is it going to affect the final product enough to make me give up brewing this beer at all?

400d said:

what you're saying, than I have to make this stout without roasted barley.... is it going to affect the final product enough to make me give up brewing this beer at all?

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Stout requires roasted barley, whether it's purchased or you are able to recreate it by roasting yourself.

If you feel confident in roasting it yourself based on other people's experiences...I'd go that route. Omitting roasted barley is not really an option for stout.

BierMuncher said:

Stout requires roasted barley, whether it's purchased or you are able to recreate it by roasting yourself.

If you feel confident in roasting it yourself based on other people's experiences...I'd go that route. Omitting roasted barley is not really an option for stout.

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thank you very much for help.

there is some barley already in my oven

oh, one more question - this roasted barley, do I have to crush it as well?

400d said:

thank you very much for help.

there is some barley already in my oven

oh, one more question - this roasted barley, do I have to crush it as well?

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Yes. Treat it like your other grains. (Except the flaked barley )

I didn't see a mash temp on this one. Am I blind, or did you not list one?

I'm assuming something in the 154-156 range?

edit: Nvm, after a third re-read I found the mash discussion on Page 2. I'll likely go with 154 just for a touch more body.

after one week from brewing a beer based on this recipe I have a report.

the only thing I changed is the yeast (I used S-04) and I used home made roasted barley...

it's been a week and I just took the sample for gravity reading. it tastes soooooooooooo good. home made roasted barley was not a mistake at all. it gives a wonderful coffee note to a beer...

I'm a bit worried about my gravity. S-04 is very fast yeast, and after one week I have 1.014 FG

OG was 1.052...

do you think it should go lower than 1.014?

400d said:

...
OG was 1.052...

do you think it should go lower than 1.014?

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Nope. '04 attenuates a bit less so it's suited for English and Irish ales. Sounds like it's hit terminal gravity...but of course your beer will thank you if you leave it be another 10-14 days.

BierMuncher said:

Nope. '04 attenuates a bit less so it's suited for English and Irish ales. Sounds like it's hit terminal gravity...but of course your beer will thank you if you leave it be another 10-14 days.

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I'm a bit afraid of leaving it in a plastic bucket for so long. Unfortunately, my carboys are all occupied

Doog_Si_Reeb said:

I'm brewing this one today (mashing right now). I'm looking forward to having this one on tap next to my Irish Red for St. Patty's day. I changed the grain ration to reduce the Roasted Barley a little bit. I'm also using UK Phoenix hops in place of Goldings.

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I was going through this thread again and ran across my post from last year. I'm brewing this recipe today, exactly one year to the day! 1/25/09 and now 1/25/10. Again, I'm brewing it up for a St. Patty's party... I am certainly a creature of habit.

Today I am going for a whole pound of roasted barley versus the .75 pound I used last year. Last year's tasted wonderful but I'd like it to have a little more roast flavor this year. I've also been souring a bottle of Guinness 250 for 6 days to add at the end of the boil. Thanks again for a great recipe!

Doog_Si_Reeb said:

I was going through this thread again and ran across my post from last year. I'm brewing this recipe today, exactly one year to the day! 1/25/09 and now 1/25/10. Again, I'm brewing it up for a St. Patty's party... I am certainly a creature of habit.

Today I am going for a whole pound of roasted barley versus the .75 pound I used last year. Last year's tasted wonderful but I'd like it to have a little more roast flavor this year. I've also been souring a bottle of Guinness 350 for 6 days to add at the end of the boil. Thanks again for a great recipe!

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what's this souring of guinness all about?

400d said:

what's this souring of guinness all about?

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Supposedly, to get the sour note, Guinness sours some of their beer and adds that to the batch. Some threads on HBT talk about putting some Guinness in a bowl and leaving it out to sour for a week. Then the soured Guinness needs to be pasteurized before adding it to the brew. Instead of separately pasteurizing the sour Guinness, I'm going to add it to the boil kettle with 10 minutes remaining. This is a first for me so I don't have a lot of helpful info, but try the link below for some HBT threads.

[ame]http://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1GGLS_enUS332US332&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=sour+guinness+site:https://www.homebrewtalk.com/[/ame]

Well just to report back, I brewed this one Friday, and it was my first ever flawless brew day, the very essence of RDWHAHB. No boilovers, no temp issues, no crazy gravity readings, no eternal cooling (thanks super cold groundwater), 70% efficiency with my new ugly-corona grain mill (time to tighten that sucker up). I believe I even ended up with the exact same 1.044 OG that Beirmuncher did. Very excited about this brew.

The only minor issue I had was I estimated all my volumes/boiloff rates exactly, but then got distracted preparing my sparge water (had friends over working on car stereos) and prepped enough for my pre-boil volume w/o compensating for grain aborbtion/mashtun deadspace, so only ended up with 4.75g instead of 5.5g post boil; however, this mistake doesn't count as a flaw in the brewday b/c it was directly my own distracted fault and 100% preventable, and it DID confirm my 1.5g/hr boiloff rate with my new pot.

Sorry for the rambling, I just had to share my brewday/excitement over this brew with people that would understand/appreciate it.

I am with you - now the waiting! I brewed this right after XMas... been in the bottle for 1wk... cracked one open to try it, even though it was undercarb'ed - it was YUMMY! Used the rest of the bottle for a nice big pot of homemade Chili!!!!

Checked my gravity at 1.015 tonight. Hoping it drops a few more points of the next two days, about to raise the temp in the brew closet to around 70* and hold it there. Then (if the weather stays cool) I'll crash chill it in the garage for a few days.

The flat hydrometer sample is already the best damn beer I've ever brewed. Can't wait for it to hit the keg. Thanks BierMuncher.

BierMuncher said:

You can't carbonate with beer gas. Nitrogen doesn't abosrb into the beer. Beer gas is used for pushing the beer.

In a lot of older pubs, the distance the beer has to travel from casks to the taps is quite a long distance and requires substantial pressure. To apply that much pressure using CO2 only would over carbonate the beer...hence...beer gas mix. It can be set at a higher pressure to push beer over long distance, without absorbing, and over carbing the beer.

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I have had success force carbonating with both popular beer gas mixes (all beer gas is a mix unless you specify pure nitrogen-- which i use to push wine on tap.
Either the 75% nitogen/25% CO2 beer gas mix (typically this mix has a female regulator attachment), or the 70% nitrogen/30% CO2 (typically or at sometimes has the male regulator attachment-- just like any CO2 tank) work fine.
No priming of the keg is necessary. Just hook the kegs with flat bright beer in them to the beer gas and set the regulator between 35 and 40 PSI for a few days. As the beer cools in the kegerator and absorbs the gases pour a pint every day-- out of a stout faucet of course-- until you get your desired carbonation/head. Then dial the regulator back to 30 to 35PSI. This is the serving pressure and can be adjusted within that range or there abouts to control the head of your beer.

If you over carbonate by accident just turn off the gas and bleed the relief valve and leave the keg for a day. Pour a beer-- if still over carbonated repeat... This of course is based on the beer being 38F and using 5 to 6 ft of 3/16" beer line. Your regulator pressure will need to be increased if you serve the beer warmer.

As a side note-- the beer gas tanks-- at least the one with a female regulator attachment are different then CO2 tanks. They have stem mechanism that helps mix the gases properly when released.

However IME the gases do settle and probably stratify (layer). IME as the tanks empty the force carbonating takes longer-- sometimes I shoot some straight CO2 in the keg to speed the process up. I assume this is because most of CO2 has been push out already (CO2 is heavier then nitrogen and the tanks draw at least partially from the bottom of the tank)

What i have found helps a great deal is-- if can remember to--- carefully pickup, flip up side down, and shake the beer gas tank periodically... I do it very time i clean the beer lines and it has really helped when carbonating a nitro beer when the tank gets low.

Getting both the nitro and C02 to absorb into the beer is important in getting the right head out of your faucet. The nitrogen does dissolve into the beer-- it just takes 30 PSI to do it-- and it is whats responsible for that beautiful cascading effect of gas leisurely leaving the pint and forming a beautiful head. The CO2 is important as well as it gives the beer mild carbonation that lasts as you drink--- b/c as soon as that cascading effect is over after the pour-- all the nitrogen has left the beer-- and without the CO2 dissolved in the beer -- the beer would taste extremely flat.

Nitrogen is wonderful because it creates the fine, frothy, silky, and goddess like bubbles, in the head of a guinness or proper guinness clone as the case may be... Unlike CO2 ---which is 4 molecules in 10,000 in our atmosphere, and explodes from the beer like on frantic jail break looking for freedom and creating large frothy bubbles and escape holes (great for standard pint but not for an irish stout)--- Nitrogen is 70% of our atmosphere and is in no rush to join its fellow friends outside the beer-- so it leisurely floats up and leaves the beer ever so gently, leaving behind barely noticeable and petite little bubbles-- which are just the perfect compliment to a well crafted pint of irish stout!

P.S. The 10% roasted barley, 25% flaked barley, and the rest pale malt is the great recipe for a guinness clone... A great variation is to substitute some roasted barley for chocolate malt or darker carafa. The hops don't matter-- 25 to 40 IBUS to taste. You only needed a boiling addition (60-90 minutes). I often just rinse the yeast off and reuse dry hops from a previous IPA. Works great and saves cash. My favorite yeasts are either the irish or american. The british is does not compliment a dry stout and often the final gravity remains high enough so that floating the stout on pales or lagers doesn't work. the american clears much more quickly is good, and avoid me from having to have multiple strains on hand. The irish adds diacetyl flavor that actually balances the harshness of the roasted barley nicely. If you plan on black and tans make sure to keep you OG below 1.045 so that the final gravity will be lower then anything you plan to float the beer on. If it ain't it won't float!

Cheers!


Drew

I'll be brewing this one this weekend. Hopefully I can getr' done for St. Patricks day! Looking forward to this one... Any results on adding the soured Guinness?

HopheadNJ said:

I'll be brewing this one this weekend. Hopefully I can getr' done for St. Patricks day! Looking forward to this one... Any results on adding the soured Guinness?

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Tried this a few times with some results. The two ways I have done this are by transferring a little over quart (40 ounces) or so of the finished stout into a growler and then adding a couple tablespoons of pale malt directly to it and leaving for a week or two around 65 - 70F. Then re rake the sample into stainless cooking pot (i covered it with tin foil), and gently pasteurize at 160-70F for 20 minutes to keep the concoction from spoiling your whole keg! You can go higher in temperature but the ethanol evaporates around 172F so you'll for sure be removing your booz from that small sample.

Pale malt or any malt i suppose is covered in lactic acid bacteria-- that's how it works... And is also the reason you shouldn't leave a mash going too long (4+ hours)...

The other way is to buy a few favorite stouts and sour them the same way.

Be careful to transfew your soured beer quietly-- no splashing/pouring--- so that is does not oxygenate and add off--cardboard tasting like flavors...

I was pretty anal about that and used a small CO2 cartridge to shoot the gas into the growler and stainless pot before racking-- CO2 is much heavier then air and won't go anywhere so long as you don't have breeze going...

Probably not necessary though...

Once you have your soured beer made, pasteurized and cooled--- pour a pint (16oz) of your guinness clone which most likely on tap now and add an single ounce of soured beer and taste...

That's what adding 40 ounces of the soured mix to the entire 5 gallon batch will taste like more or less. 5 gallons = 640 ounces or 40 pints... (40 ounces is 1/16th of your entire 5 gallon batch)... Same as what is in your pint samplier-- 1 ounce sour mix and 16 ounces stout.

If you like that flavor add-- dump the whole thing in keg... If too strong than dial it back to half an ounce or whatever...

Cheers,

Drew

droopy said:

Tried this a few times with some results. The two ways I have done this are by transferring a little over quart (40 ounces) or so of the finished stout into a growler and then adding a couple tablespoons of pale malt directly to it and leaving for a week or two around 65 - 70F. Then re rake the sample into stainless cooking pot (i covered it with tin foil), and gently pasteurize at 160-70F for 20 minutes to keep the concoction from spoiling your whole keg! You can go higher in temperature but the ethanol evaporates around 172F so you'll for sure be removing your booz from that small sample.

Pale malt or any malt i suppose is covered in lactic acid bacteria-- that's how it works... And is also the reason you shouldn't leave a mash going too long (4+ hours)...

The other way is to buy a few favorite stouts and sour them the same way.

Be careful to transfew your soured beer quietly-- no splashing/pouring--- so that is does not oxygenate and add off--cardboard tasting like flavors...

I was pretty anal about that and used a small CO2 cartridge to shoot the gas into the growler and stainless pot before racking-- CO2 is much heavier then air and won't go anywhere so long as you don't have breeze going...

Probably not necessary though...

Once you have your soured beer made, pasteurized and cooled--- pour a pint (16oz) of your guinness clone which most likely on tap now and add an single ounce of soured beer and taste...

That's what adding 40 ounces of the soured mix to the entire 5 gallon batch will taste like more or less. 5 gallons = 640 ounces or 40 pints... (40 ounces is 1/16th of your entire 5 gallon batch)... Same as what is in your pint samplier-- 1 ounce sour mix and 16 ounces stout.

If you like that flavor add-- dump the whole thing in keg... If too strong than dial it back to half an ounce or whatever...

Cheers,

Drew

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Great Post.

I got to do anything but work right now

Fully conditioned and clear guinness on the quick----

---use an american yeast, 1056 of safale 05 is what i use. The irish -- wyeast anyways is not very flocculant, although it does match guinness much better. Either way will work-- use a touch more isinglass if going irish:
- original gravity 1.038 to 1.044
- ferment out primary 70F (5 days)
- transfer into secondary 5 days or until fermentation is totally done (american yeast is faster then irish IME),
- transfer again (i like using a keg as i can purge with CO2 and prevent oxygenation) and add dry isinglass (1/8 teaspoon partially dissolved in a Budweiser for 20 minutes) and polyclar mixture (like a teaspoon), then add the whole kitten kaboodle into the keg as transferring. Purge airspace at top of keg with C02. Agitate beer WELL! (shake!)
- wait 48 hours to clarify, then transfer into serving keg, put in kegerator 38F (if doing a keg to keg transfer and drawing from the bottom via keg dipstick-- discard the first pint or so as it will be a thick yeast/isinglass/polyclar slurry-- once beer flows clear put it in the serving keg!)
- set C02 tank at 40 PSI and leave for 12-18 hours
- Disconnect from CO2 tank and hook up to beer gas at 40PSI

Should be pouring frothy, cascading, guinness with a few days from then. Once it is dial beer gas to 30-35 PSI.

if still not fizzy enough to get the stout faucett cranking the way you like after a three days or so-- disconnect the beer gas--pull the relief valve, and charge the keg with 40 PSI CO2, then re attach the beer gas. check the next day.

This carbonation process is all variable but that is the general idea to get it done quickly without man handling (shaking) kegs.

You can also agitate the kegs while cold and the gas is hooked up and on-- that will do it in a matter of minutes but is way more temperamental. If experimenting or rushed and tackling carbonation that way-- do the CO2 first for mild carbonation then the beer gas--- On both accounts agitate a couple minutes. check carbonation. repeat until where you want it.

You can ferment the beer quicker (turbo yeast would be one way and/or more aggressive finings, or cold crashing and cutting fermentation times down) but you'll sacrifice quality.

some motivation
http://www.flickr.com/photos/47460190@N08/4343587511/

PS-- As I devour a bratwurst with home made sauerkraut and drink a black and tan on a random Tuesday drunk--- If you want a very strong lactic acid bacteria and easily accessible starter culture for souring a portion of beer quickly--- a little home made sauerkraut juice is probably the best...

Never done it so don't know --- but guessing it would like a charm and faster then pale malt starter method

I just wanted to say that this is my best brew by now. It is fantastic!

Recommend it to everyone....

would Toasted Barley "TORRIFIED" work as a substitue to Flaked Barley?

torrified barley-- don't think i have seen it... but sounds like it would work fine. you want to mill torrified stuff to expose the starch...

torrified is basically the same as flakes--- cooked (gelatinized) and dried (toasted). Flakes are just rolled flat before drying.

NotALamer said:

Yeah you want unmalted black/roasted barley not black/roasted malt. I'm sure you can find something to use it in, there are lots of recipes to try. Look around at the stout, porter, and dark ale recipes for something that uses it, or just make something up.

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I used what my LHBS had labeled as Roasted Malt? Could this be Black Patent instead of Roasted Barley? I did a search but couldn't come up with much.

Anybody ever seen either labeled Roasted Malt?

We also talked about how the grain turned very dusty and crushed very fine compared to other grains. Something about the husks. Maybe this will help decipher what I used?

I brewed this last weekend and I'm really fighting the urge to crack it open as soon as I get home and drink it all in the name of St. Patrick.

On the serious note, I'm still starting out and scaled down the recipe to 1gallon. Does anyone have any advice for me on things they would do differently for a smaller batch of stout like this?

I wasn't planning to rack to a secondary either -- my primary is a glass bottle and I was planning to rack to a pot with priming sugar and bottle straight from there. Any input on that?

Thank you for the recipe and the feedback.

I brewed this last october... I'm blowing the last case with some buddies tonight in celebration of my freckles. Took a while to mellow out, but this became a very smooth stout.

Would some folks please comment on their experiences with the taste of this brew after fermenting for three weeks (if anyone has snuck a taste before conditioning ). I was checking gravity yesterday before bottling and although I'm sure there was probably some starsan in the mix and the flatness affected the taste, it seemed a little thin and diluted to me. I could detect a good base flavor in there and I'm hoping there things I noticed are just because it's not finished.

I went with the modified ratio recommendation with less roasted barley mentioned after the original post and hit the OG right on -- I think my mash temp was a little low for medium body so that could be part of it. On the advice of my LHBS I only pitched half the vial of Irish Ale yeast into my 1 gallon batch. Comparing the color to some of the pictures in the thread it seemed a little light as well (probably because of the lower roasted barley quantity), but that could also be a factor of looking at it in the test jar vs. a proper pint.

Thanks for the feedback!

Krrazy said:

Would some folks please comment on their experiences with the taste of this brew after fermenting for three weeks (if anyone has snuck a taste before conditioning ). I was checking gravity yesterday before bottling and although I'm sure there was probably some starsan in the mix and the flatness affected the taste, it seemed a little thin and diluted to me. I could detect a good base flavor in there and I'm hoping there things I noticed are just because it's not finished.

I went with the modified ratio recommendation with less roasted barley mentioned after the original post and hit the OG right on -- I think my mash temp was a little low for medium body so that could be part of it. On the advice of my LHBS I only pitched half the vial of Irish Ale yeast into my 1 gallon batch. Comparing the color to some of the pictures in the thread it seemed a little light as well (probably because of the lower roasted barley quantity), but that could also be a factor of looking at it in the test jar vs. a proper pint.

Thanks for the feedback!

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It will be lots lighter in a test jar versus a pint. Mine came out a touch thinner than expected also, due to my mashing temperature (for a while there, all of my beers were coming out a bit thin since my temps were off).

Carbonation does add quite a bit of mouth feel, so just don't worry. I'm sure that it will be quite good.

I am usually one to read all the pages in a post, but I just do not have the time right now. So I hope I am not re asking questions.

I have been toying with making this for a bit now and I am finally ready and I have space in my pipeline.

I am thinking of souring some store bought Guinness to add at the end of the boil.
First, if I do this I do not need the Acid malt then, right?
Second, I have also read instead of souring store bought Guinness, I could pull 24 oz of the finished wort before adding the yeast, toss some malt in it and let it set until the fermentation is over then boil the bit that has been souring and add it to the finished beer. Does this sound better or worse? Will it work? What would you do? I know add Acid Malt, but I would like to try to do it the "authentic" way.

Second I have a bunch of Nugget hops in the freezer. The hops additions are all at the 60 min mark so the different flavors of hops really do not come through. So as long as I am adding an amount to hit the ~30 IBU of Guinness this should be ok also? Maybe it wouldn't be exact but it would be cheaper?

I know it is strange thinking on one hand "authentic" souring, but then not caring about correct hops. But just ignore my irrationalities.

TIA,
Mitch

I don't think you need to add grain for the souring, just let it sit out and sour, then boil it and add it to the finished beer. You might get more consistent results by adding a lactobacillus culture to the wort that you want to sour. I've heard that Guinness uses about 10% soured wort, but I don't know if that's accurate or not. You could also just add some lactic acid to the finished product, homebrew stores sell it for wine I think. If you search this thread, we have talked about it.

Some of the hop flavor could still come through, but it will die off over time after you've bottled it anyway.

Thanks for the tips, I had just read somewhere that adding a small amount of grain will help introduce the bugs needed to sour the wort faster.

I will be kegging and using beer gas, so it won't be bottled. But I think I will give the nugget a try and just be conservative with them. If it doesn't come out just like Guinness because of that, I bet it still comes out tasty.

Ah well however you store it, the hop flavor and aroma will diminish considerably over time.

Myrdhyn said:

Checked my gravity at 1.015 tonight. Hoping it drops a few more points of the next two days, about to raise the temp in the brew closet to around 70* and hold it there. Then (if the weather stays cool) I'll crash chill it in the garage for a few days.

The flat hydrometer sample is already the best damn beer I've ever brewed. Can't wait for it to hit the keg. Thanks BierMuncher.

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Well, I just sampled this again the other day after a few months of aging and about a month on gas, HOLY WOW, is this good. It's also the first beer I've brewed that someone else has tasted and said to me, "YOU brewed this????" Since I've got several friends that like stout, I'm thinking this will be constantly in rotation (with full credit to da Muncher), possibly with a bit more roasted barley.

Interestingly on top of the usual roasty stout goodness, there are some definite vanilla notes developing in the middle of the palate. I'm loving it, every drop is glorious.

edit: Beirmuncher, if you were going to give this just a hint more sourness and a bit more roastiness without going overboard, how much more of each grain would you add to a 10g batch?

Myrdhyn said:

Well, I just sampled this again the other day after a few months of aging and about a month on gas, HOLY WOW, is this good. It's also the first beer I've brewed that someone else has tasted and said to me, "YOU brewed this????" Since I've got several friends that like stout, I'm thinking this will be constantly in rotation (with full credit to da Muncher), possibly with a bit more roasted barley.

Interestingly on top of the usual roasty stout goodness, there are some definite vanilla notes developing in the middle of the palate. I'm loving it, every drop is glorious.

edit: Beirmuncher, if you were going to give this just a hint more sourness and a bit more roastiness without going overboard, how much more of each grain would you add to a 10g batch?

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Instead of increasing any one particular grain, I'd be more tempted to take some of your current batch and bottle it (or buy a commercial bottle or two) and then about a week before you brew another batch, allow the beer to sour. I haven't done it, but that is a pretty standard practice for trying to get that unique souring from beers like Guinness.

That's interesting. I hadn't thought about going that route. My only issue with it is I have no idea how to go about souring it in an appropriate way. It seems like if you just left it open, it would oxidize in a major kind of way.

just tasted my sample at 1.011.

My Goodness....My Guinness!

Need a "for knowledge" clarification. I read through all of this in the autumn and glanced over it now, is this a recipe for the Guinness Extra Stout or the Guinness Draught? I ordered it from Brewmasters warehouse and they describe it as the draught. just wondering, I like both either way.
Ben

It is for the draught.

brew hoperator
Thank you