Sky HighBU's

Howdy,
So I've recently ventured off on my own, creating my own recipes and have been pretty successful making some dang good beer! One thing I can't understand is that after I plug all the info into BeerSmith I'm getting IBU's that are beyond what the palate can even handle. My last IPA was 157 IBU's but it did not even come close to a bottle I get from the liquor store that say's 90 IBU's!?!

The hop socks I add to the boil are loosely tied (a few times I didn't give them enough room to expand and i was like a baseball afterwards).

My normal schedule is: 1 liter water per pnd of grain for strike, mash, sparge enough to get about 12.5-13 gal. to boil so I yield about 10 gal after all is said and done.

am I not keeping a good enough track on water amount throughout the brew sesh? I'm sure its something simple because I'm definitely a rook. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Casey

I just listened to a basic brewing podcast in which a two part "hop ceiling" episode was discussed and an extremely hoppy beer was sampled and there was a discussion about how the beer got so hoppy. What was established was that no matter how much hops are used in a 60 minute boil the IBU ceiling will end up around 50. They explained that designing a recipe that included more than 50 IBU's at the 60 minute boil is a waste. The conclusion was that adding hops later in the boil (5-10 minutes before flame out) was much more efficient as far as increasing the IBU's goes.

Did they recommend changes for 90+ minute boils?

Edit: I realize I could just listen to the podcast, but how did they determine a 50 ibu limit?

TacoBrew said:

Edit: I realize I could just listen to the podcast, but how did they determine a 50 ibu limit?

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they leaned slightly forward, reached behind and pulled.
IBU is just arbitrary # assigned to relative bitterness flavor.

amandabab said:

IBU is just arbitrary # assigned to relative bitterness flavor.

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+1

IBU to me has so much more to do with ABV and the FG ( as in how many sugars are left).

For your problem, I would try doing the exact same beer again but without the hop sock and maybe try figuring out if you may have any water issues.

ylpaul2000 said:

I just listened to a basic brewing podcast in which a two part "hop ceiling" episode was discussed and an extremely hoppy beer was sampled and there was a discussion about how the beer got so hoppy. What was established was that no matter how much hops are used in a 60 minute boil the IBU ceiling will end up around 50. They explained that designing a recipe that included more than 50 IBU's at the 60 minute boil is a waste. The conclusion was that adding hops later in the boil (5-10 minutes before flame out) was much more efficient as far as increasing the IBU's goes.

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I listened to this one to and frankly, I'm surprised a little that the information learned from it hasn't set the homebrew hop crowd on its a**. I was floored by it and started thinking about my last ipa recipe that I got from Nate Smith where it called for 18ibu 60" and another 18" ibu at 30 and then 3oz of flameout hops which I let steep for 30 min in the hot wort (his recipe didn't say to specifically do that, it's just something I find to work incredibly well for massive hop flavor and aroma).

That beer (Dankness IPA) was so bitter, it actually approached some of the commercial examples of IIPA, which I'm not in it for straight bitterness but it surprised me). I think BBR was on to something noting that only 50ibu is possible from any size or AA hop addition amount at 60 min, but clearly additional IBU can be picked up later in the boil. The CYBI clone recipe of FW Union Jack also follows a similiar method but it's bittering charge is at 90", which the podcast didn't address, but the bittering charge is still just south of 50IBU if my memory serves me right.

Basically I've learned that trying to shove IBU's greater than 50 at 60" is pointless, and has since saved my Warrior hop stash. Great podcast, especially the section with the hopbursted ipa with a massive (and only addition) amount of hops at 5 min that came out with some measured 80+ IBU. Neat stuff that I've actually (at least I think anyway) experienced.

I've always known the ceiling to be 100 IBU's.

All the testing was conduced in a laboratory setting by Dr. Brad Sturgeon of Monmouth College using the beer 23 assay. His tests were valid and as much as many would argue there is empirical, repeatable data that substantiates his claims.

amandabab said:

IBU is just arbitrary # assigned to relative bitterness flavor.

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you could argue that perceived bitterness is arbitrary, but ibus are lab testable. Nothing arbitrary about measured ibus. The theoretical ibus estimated by software is another topic entirely.

genes said:

I've always known the ceiling to be 100 IBU's.

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That's not what was addressed in the podcast. The results were completely based around a single 60min addition of hops. That's it.... So the results showed that no matter what, 50ibu was all they get into a single 60 minute charge. Anything after that, is just vegetable matter in the kettle ---- but only for 60 min additions. More ibu will and can be picked up later in the boil, but from 60 min, 50ibu was it.

Makes sense, there's more to bittering than just extracting AA, put a hop pinch between your cheek and gum and you will see that it is plenty bitter with no boiling what-so-ever.

I have heard this same information out of the Brewing Science guys at UC Davis....the brewing software will continue to compound the AA numbers in the recipe but it doesn't seem to correct for what is observed through lab analysis.

The commercial guys can crank up the IBU's with hop extract, and since they have labs handy they can do it in a controlled, precise manner.

Get a water report and check your sulfate levels. High levels of sulfate will help to increase perceived bitterness at moderate to high IBU levels, whatever the actual measured value is. You can add gypsum to the boil to achieve this.

ylpaul2000 said:

I just listened to a basic brewing podcast in which a two part "hop ceiling" episode was discussed and an extremely hoppy beer was sampled and there was a discussion about how the beer got so hoppy. What was established was that no matter how much hops are used in a 60 minute boil the IBU ceiling will end up around 50. They explained that designing a recipe that included more than 50 IBU's at the 60 minute boil is a waste. The conclusion was that adding hops later in the boil (5-10 minutes before flame out) was much more efficient as far as increasing the IBU's goes.

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You just made me discover Basicbrewing.com. Thanks man! What a great website. I also found the "Hop Ceiling" podcast and it was pretty interesting. It also helped me confirm that I know very little about calculating IBU's. So the consensus is that most people are miss-labeling IBU's on their bottles. I suppose I'll just keep doing what I'm doing and deal with the fact that I still dont understand IBU's.....

I wouldn't say mis-labeling. I would say it is entirely possible that a brewery measures IBU coming out of a holding/aging tank and at that point the IBU's are quite possibly correct as per the labeling. However the Alpha Acids will stick to everything and not end up in the beer. The IBU's could be effected by everything from the distance to the bottling line to ( in a home brew
sense) the linear amount of copper one uses in their IC. Plus the AA's do degrade quickly.

You might want to check out adding hops to first wort (if you haven't already). If you don't think you're getting enough bitterness that should help. I recently replaced half of my aroma hops with first wort hops and the bitterness went off the scale.

Or maybe I'm talking out me arse. I have been indulging in HB.

First time I heard about this I am very intrigued by it. When I first started brewing I didn't made an IPA but didn't have enough water during the boil to extract all of the bitterness and I have since been of the thinking that most IBU problems are a result of water level. I am going to have to read up on this a little more.

I highly suggest going to the basic brewer website and listening to the IBU ceiling episodes and then the hop bursting episode. The info given there really changed my thoughts on hop usage.

wow, what an interesting podcast! thanks for the heads up on this :cheers:

So the 50 IBU celing is from hop usage only? Any idea if there is a 'ceiling' w/ using hop extract, ie: hopshot from northern brewer?

That is a totally different beast. Many breweries such as Russian river, Avery, Lagunitas, etc. Use hop extract to bitter their beers. I've used the hop shot products with great success. The nice aspect is that there is no hop mass to deal with at all! I can really boost the IBU's and not lose a gallon of wort to vegetation.

I enjoy some of the hop extract beers, lagunitas hop stoopid in particular, but personally I don't feel the taste is quite the same. It's bitter, but less flavorful in my humble opinion.

What about boil not being vigorous enough? That could bring your actual ibus to lower than calculated, right?