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CvilleKevin,

Thanks for the info.

Fermentation has been going for four days at this point, and I have to admit I got caught off guard at how quick it went...1.058 to 1.012. Although it went a little further than I would have liked, I'm still in a range I feel I can work with.

Unfortunately, the cider is still cloudy despite the addition of peptic enzyme. Also, the presence of a sulfur is lingering and making me nervous. The apple character is in the back ground with a decent balance of acid, but I'm picking up a bitter characteristic as well.

Moving forward, and taking in to account that this is my first attempt at cider, I'm going to rack in to my secondary fermentation tank, back sweeten to around 1.015 and put it in to cold storage for 48 hours (hoping cold storage slows down fermentation), prime, bottle carb and pasteurize.

My thought is I hope it will clear a bit and lose some of that sulfur character and mellow a bit. I'm a firm believer in the benefits of two weeks of secondary, but can't quite seem to wrap my head around the process of how to accomplish secondary, maintain my desired gravity without back sweetening, bottle carb and pasteurize.

When you said "but most likely enough yeast will survive to bottle condition", do you mean it would survive through 2-3 days of cold crashing, or will it survive longer if I rack again after 48 hours and hold for two weeks around 40-45 F?

Thanks!
 
Unfortunately, the cider is still cloudy despite the addition of peptic enzyme.

Pectic enzyme doesnt make the cider any more clear while it is fermenting. The yeast stir everything up. They also affect the taste. I would not backsweeten until after the crash. The cider should clear and will taste a lot better after the crash and you will have a better sense of final sweetness.

As far as the smell goes, high temps and a fast ferment stress the yeast. Next time, it will smell a lot better if you ferment it cooler.

When you said "but most likely enough yeast will survive to bottle condition", do you mean it would survive through 2-3 days of cold crashing, or will it survive longer if I rack again after 48 hours and hold for two weeks around 40-45 F?

I'd expect enough yeast to survive in either case. If you want to make sure you have enough yeast you can always pick up a little bit intentionally when you siphon on the rack following the crash.

When I cold crash, it is to completely eliminate the yeast and Notty is good for that because it drops out of suspension nearly completely when crashed (although addition of enzyme and nutrient make complete elimination of the yeast less likely). If you want to bottle pasteurize and use cold crashing for clearing, it is better to use a lager yeast like S23 that does not all drop out when you crash it.
 
When I cold crash, it is to completely eliminate the yeast and Notty is good for that because it drops out of suspension nearly completely when crashed (although addition of enzyme and nutrient make complete elimination of the yeast less likely). If you want to bottle pasteurize and use cold crashing for clearing, it is better to use a lager yeast like S23 that does not all drop out when you crash it.

I wouldn't count on cold crashing to eliminate all the yeast in a brew. That could be very unsafe. My first batch I thought this was the case and I syphoned off the lees, I even left a good inch of clear cider behind. After sitting 3 days in the warm air I didn't see any activity, so I bottled. A few days after bottling I opened my first bottle and has a drink. It was carbonated. The next day I started losing bottles.

The moral of the story... Never assume the yeast are gone, unless you kill them off with sufficient heat or with chemicals.
 
I wouldn't count on cold crashing to eliminate all the yeast in a brew. That could be very unsafe.

True - I have been stopping cider via cold crashing for well over a decade, but I still never assume that the crash worked 100% until the cider has been sitting still in the secondary and is stable for at least a month.

After sitting 3 days in the warm air I didn't see any activity, so I bottled.

Yeah, that would be risky. The only yeast that I would bottle 3 days after crashing is Wy3333, which I've used to successfully bottle condition about a half dozen batches - but that was after experimenting with a lot of different yeasts and crash times. So far I've never had one of these burst, but I keep them in bottle crates with separators between each bottle and a pan underneath, just in case.

Keep in mind that the general mechanism of using of cold crashing to stop the cider is to artificially induce a stuck fermentation. This is the same general process (although different method) that JK Scrumpy and some old school European cider makers like Etienne Dupont use to get a bottle fermented sweet cider. Getting a fermentation to reliably stick takes a bit of practice. You need to eliminate nutrients as well as yeast. I have been doing it for years but still only about 85 percent of mine stop on the first crash. Cold crashing works best if you have a consistent source of low nitrogen juice - or if you have kegs that you can carb and keep cold after the crash.
 
I was bored yesterday so i attempted a 1 gallon batch of cider. I've been brewing beer for a little while and have wanted to give cider a shot so I went for it. I used a gallon of 100% pure pressed apple cider that had been pasteurized at the factory, 3/4 cup cane sugar, and 1/2 tsp of muntons dry active yeast that I had on hand. Fermentation is going good so far. I did a gravity reading at the start and it was 1.068. I had read in this thread that 1.060-1.065 was a good number so it wouldn't loose a lot of apple flavor when it finished. The question I had was about yeast, how much would be the proper amount for a 1 gallon batch? I weighed out the packet of yeast and divided it by 4 thinking that since its enough for a 5 gallon batch I'd divide by 4 to give it a little extra. Also what's the average turn around on drinking time? I plan to sweeten it with some brown sugar and molasses once the fermentation is done. I'll bottle it in glass along with one plastic bottle so I can keep an eye on carbonation levels and then attempt to stove top pasteurize it. I figured a one gallon batch would be good to practice things like this without having to risk ruining a full 5 gallons. Thanks in advance. Hopefully this will work out ok, the juice I used was really tasty so hopefully that will provide a decent final product. I'll definitely. Be trying a larger batch with some better yeast in the future.
 
The question I had was about yeast, how much would be the proper amount for a 1 gallon batch?

A quarter packet is fine in a gallon. When I do individual gallons, I use anywhere from 1/2 to 1/5 packet

what's the average turn around on drinking time?

It depends on yeast and temps. Muntons is a fast fermenter and can ferment out a gallon in a few days at room temp. The cooler you can keep it, the slower it will ferment and the more control you will have over the final taste
 
CvilleKevin said:
A quarter packet is fine in a gallon. When I do individual gallons, I use anywhere from 1/2 to 1/5 packet

It depends on yeast and temps. Muntons is a fast fermenter and can ferment out a gallon in a few days at room temp. The cooler you can keep it, the slower it will ferment and the more control you will have over the final taste

Cool thanks, it's at between 68-70 right now. I'll check it again in a few days and go from there.
 
CvilleKevin - I just got my first batch into the keg following your method - rack, cold crash, rack into clean - looking forward to it getting carbed up :p I also acquired three more kegs :)

#1 What size Better Bottles do you use? 5 gal or 6 gal?
#2 Do you normally only do 5 gallons of cider per batch (that sounds like a dumb question) and end up with around 4.5 gallons after all of the racking or do you start with more than 5 to make up for the loss?
#3 If kegging, is the cold crashing really necessary? Couldn't one just go primary -> keg (assuming that the keg is gonna stay cold). I think one could, I guess I was more interested if you had tried this in the past?
#4 Just of out curiosity what is your serving setup? Maybe I am missing something but I didn't see a kegerator / keezer setup in any of your pics.
 
I just got my first batch into the keg following your method - rack, cold crash, rack into clean - looking forward to it getting carbed up :p I also acquired three more kegs

Nice!

#1 What size Better Bottles do you use? 5 gal or 6 gal?

I use 6 gal for primaries, 5 for secondaries. I start with about 5.5 to 5.75 gal of juice and end up with 5 gal of finished cider

#3 If kegging, is the cold crashing really necessary? Couldn't one just go primary -> keg (assuming that the keg is gonna stay cold). I think one could, I guess I was more interested if you had tried this in the past?

Hmm, You could do this, but then all of the solids that drop during the crash will end up on the bottom of your keg. I suppose that most of them would come out when you pour the first couple of pints. You might need to rock the keg a little bit in the beginning to get everything to settle near the dip tube. Otherwise you could get random murky pours. I suspect that its more efficient to rack the clear cider off the trub, rather than to suck the trub up first from the bottom of the cider, but I've never tried it so cant say for sure. The main reason I dont do this is that I store most of my kegs at room temp so that they can last for 12 months - so I want to make sure the ferment wont start back up. Also I fill bottles from kegs from time to time for friends, family, etc. so I want to make sure that the cider is stable. If you are planning to just keg and drink right away, then it does seem like this method would save a step, probably at the cost of a few cloudy pours.

#4 Just of out curiosity what is your serving setup? Maybe I am missing something but I didn't see a kegerator / keezer setup in any of your pics
.

I have picnic taps on the kegs that are in the fridge for everyday drinking, so its kinda like a poor mans kegerator. For parties, I put the kegs in 10 gal trash cans with ice, so that they are easier to get to.
 
Fermentation definitely got too warm. Can usually hit between 66-68 F with beer wort using evaporation cooling, but just couldn't seem to get the temp on the cider down and stable. Working on an idea for the next round. The flavor seemed to clean up a bit after 24 hrs. I'll see where it is tomorrow and figure out where to go from there.

As far as cold crashing goes...is it better to hit my target gravity/sweetness and put the fermentation bucket into the refrigerator and then rack off the lees after a few days, or should I rack off the lees in to a carboy after reaching desired gravity/sweetness, crash and then rack to another carboy after a few days?

Would you recommend using peptic enzyme in my next attempt if I plan on cold conditioning for two weeks after crashing? I do want to bottle condition and pasteurize after two weeks. Would you recommend using yeast nutrient? I just want to make sure the yeast can stay viable for the bottle conditioning phase.
 
As far as cold crashing goes...is it better to hit my target gravity/sweetness and put the fermentation bucket into the refrigerator and then rack off the lees after a few days, or should I rack off the lees in to a carboy after reaching desired gravity/sweetness, crash and then rack to another carboy after a few days?

It depends on your goals. I rack before and after the crash because that is the most reliable way of getting all the yeast out. I've tried putting the primary straight into the fridge and it gets the cider clear but doesnt stop the yeast as well - but if you want to keep some yeast viable to bottle carb and pasteurize, it seems like a more reliable way to go for your purposes.

Would you recommend using peptic enzyme in my next attempt if I plan on cold conditioning for two weeks after crashing? I do want to bottle condition and pasteurize after two weeks. Would you recommend using yeast nutrient? I just want to make sure the yeast can stay viable for the bottle conditioning phase.

I'd skip the pectic enzyme unless you are sure you need it. Usually the juice clears out nicely on its own in the crash. If its not clear enough for your liking you can always add enzyme on the next batch. If you want a slower temp controlled fermentation then skipping the yeast nutrient will help. Unless your juice comes from old growth unfertilized trees - which is hard to find - it has plenty of nutrient for most ale and lager yeasts
 
Duly noted.

Using campden tablets...Do you prefer to let the must rest 24 or 48 hours before pitching the the yeast? After adding the campden tablets, do you cover and use a stopper an airlock, or do you leave uncovered (or maybe cover loosely with plastic or foil) so it can off gas?
 
Is there any advantage to not adding enzyme?

I found that adding pectic enzyme made the cider ferment faster and it was harder to crash. So for my purposes, those are two good reasons not to add it. Plus, I dont like to add anything I dont need to my juice or do any unnecessary steps, just on general principle. OTOH, if you wanted the cider to ferment out ASAP and/or you want to bottle carb and pasteurize, then the enzyme might be worth the extra step

Using campden tablets...Do you prefer to let the must rest 24 or 48 hours before pitching the the yeast? After adding the campden tablets, do you cover and use a stopper an airlock, or do you leave uncovered (or maybe cover loosely with plastic or foil) so it can off gas?

I havent used campden tablets in several years, except on a couple batches last year that tasted like they might be starting to turn post fermentation. IMHO, the cider tastes better without it. However, I am planning to add it to a few batches on the next juice pressing for a few reasons: (1) I doubt that I will be able to tell the difference after 6 months and expect that it will improve how well the ciders keep, so I am contemplating adding it to some of the batches for longer term storage (ie to get me through next summer). (2) My experience has been that the ciders from the last pressing of the season (usually January) are the most likely to turn - probably because the apples have been sitting in storage for longer and more likely to pick up acetobacter. So I may start sulfiting the last batch of the season as a matter of course. (3) My girlfriend's all time favorite batch was a Wy3068 batch from a few years ago that I added half a dose of sulfite before pitching the yeast, and I want to see if I can exactly replicate that recipe.

When I do use sulfite, I only use half the recommended dose. The recommended dosages are for wine and in my experience, half a dose is plenty to knock out the wild yeast and protect against acetobacter. The yeast are happier (ie less sulfur) and the bitter tang from the sulfite wears off sooner so the cider is drinkable earlier. I wait 24 hours before pitching the yeast and use a stopper in the meantime.
 
Cider48.jpg


16 days of fermenting, and the ciders are almost ready to start crashing.

After the initial krausen fell, I replaced the blow off tubes with regular air locks and put a couple of brew balls in each carboy so I can tell how the ferment is going without having to take samples and introduce air into the carboys. When the first ball drops, I know I'm getting close and when the second drops, its time to start taste sampling for the crash. For some reason, the balls like to hang out on the side of the carboy, which is a good thing, because otherwise they would be hard to see. I dont think the brew balls are on the market anymore, but if you can pick up a used set they are really handy for cider. Saves a lot of time and reduces chance of air contamination.

Since pressing on the 15th, temps in the basement have ranged from a low of 58 to high of 68. Most of the time was at 64-66. We had some hot (80+) days, but luckily it has been getting cool at night, so I've been able to keep temps in range by opening a window in the basement at night. Now that the weather has cooled off and the heat is on, basement stays a fairly steady 62.
 
So I have my pasteurized cider I that pitched with some Notty and I just have a couple questions...... 1. If I wanted to carb it could I check for when the gravity is close to 1.020 then bottle it, test one per day until it reaches desired carbonation, then pasteurize the bottles with the stove top method?

2. Do I have to keep the carboy blocked from light for any reason like you have to with beer?

3. What temp would you say is best to ferment at? Right now its at about room temp but I can easily bring it down to the low-mid 60s.
 
1. If I wanted to carb it could I check for when the gravity is close to 1.020 then bottle it, test one per day until it reaches desired carbonation, then pasteurize the bottles with the stove top method?

yep

2. Do I have to keep the carboy blocked from light for any reason like you have to with beer?

I keep mine out of direct sunlight when fermenting, but I dont cover them or anything. My guess is that it would be better to keep them dark if you can, although putting a cover on the carboys would interfere with keeping them cool, so I dont do that. It definitely a good idea to keep finished bottles in a dark place. My basement gets up to 90 degrees in the summer which hasnt been a problem, but once a couple years ago I left the cover off of my stack o' cider bottle cases and they got direct sun from the window and I lost 2 bottles.

3. What temp would you say is best to ferment at?

For ale and wheat yeasts, 60 to 65 works best for me. For wild yeast, 45-50 is better
 
CvilleKevin- thanks for consistently posting your progress.

My local cider mill will be doing their heritage apple blend tomorrow, so I'm a little pressed for time, so I'll just ask- What would you top 5 yeast selections be (or is there a consolidated post about your results thus far)?

Thanks!
 
I just split a batch of scrumpy into 3 carboys & fermented with different yeasts at ambient temperature of 13ºC.

Wyeast 2565 - fermented quickly, tastes "rough" when crashed at 1.010. Will probably have to bulk age or blend to make it palatable.
Safale S-04 - solid ferment, tastes quite nice crashed at 1.015.
WLP 041 - Very slow ferment at these temps, still going at 1.025.
 
What would you top 5 yeast selections be (or is there a consolidated post about your results thus far)?

I havent got around to a consolidated post yet, but here's the recipes for the 2 pressings so far this season, which are pretty much my favorite yeasts these days:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f32/results-juice-yeast-sugar-experiments-83060/index65.html#post4412245
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f32/results-juice-yeast-sugar-experiments-83060/index68.html#post4503829

Other than these, I also like US05 - I just havent got around to using it yet this season. Also S23 is good if you are planning to bottle pasteurize because it tastes great crashed between 1.002 (semi dry) and 1.012 (semi sweet) range and because its a lager yeast, you can cold crash the cider for clarity before bottling and still have enough of the yeast left after the crash to carb the bottles.
 
Did you go about this with a design of experiment!? If so, kudos to you good Sir! Also, if so, what criteria did you use for your responses? Were they all qualitative measures or did you have quantitative responses as well?
 
I just whipped up a batch that is 5 gallons cider with 2lbs of light brown sugar and 1lb of dark brown sugar. Those brought it to 1.08 at 82 degrees. Pitched in Nottingham yeast and will probably have it sitting at 65 degrees on average.

The idea here is to get something that's not wimpy but 8-9% tops. I plan to crack the primary open in a week to see where the fermentation and taste are at and stop the process when it seems the time is right with potassium sorbate.

This is the point where I'm uncertain what to do. I make wines but am familiar with beer brewing timelines. The two ciders I've done have been in a wine style: 8+ months bulk aging before bottling. I was happy with both. This one is meant for a keg asap. After I get this to where I want it ABV and taste-wise, am I going to need to let the 60 days a beer kit takes accumulate before it's drinkable? Is there another timeline for a cider to mellow under the conditions I'm working with?
 
I did 11 days primary to get from 1.060 to 1.010 - cold crashed (for 8 days moreso because I was out of town), and then kegged 6 days after that (moreso because I did not yet have the keg space). So I could have done 11 days primary, 2 days cold crash, 2 days to make sure fermentation stopped and to drop anything else and then kegged. As it is, I kegged 25 days after pitching. My cider was drinkable flat at kegging time, really tasty after about a week kegged at 12 PSI - At almost three weeks kegged, it is amazing now.

You could probably force-carb (I've heard 30 PSI for 30 hours) for faster results. So I would say a month is a good middle-ground timeline if kegging. Others with more experience might have better advice though.
 
SoTempe here is a pretty insightful post from the beginning of this thread from the OP regarding kegging time.

My keg batch process has been evolving since I started reading this forum last year. Before then I just used fresh local UV pasteurized juice and Nottingham ale yeast. No extra sugar, but sometimes 3lbs of honey for cysers. Cold crash when it gets to about 1.002 to 1.008, keep an eye on it for a couple days to make sure fermentation doesn’t start back up again and then put it in a keg and carb at 25psi and a day or two later it is good to go. A few extra days of settling and carb generally improves the taste, but it doesn’t need much aging. Sometimes a pasteurized cider will clear up after an extra week or two in the secondary, but usually not. Cysers usually do.

Since reading this forum last year I’ve started adding sugar to most batches, to pick the sg up to 1.060 or 1.065 max. I’ve found that starting with slightly higher sg gives more control over stopping at a good final sg and still leaves a lot of apple taste. I shifted to using mostly unpasteurized juice because it clears faster with no additives, so can be kegged sooner as long as you don’t mind waiting longer to drink it.

For the most recent 5 keg batches I cut the k-meta dosage in half (1/8 tsp in 6gal). I expect this will make them drinkable sooner. For four of the carboys I added 18 oz turbinado and 9oz corn sugar to bring the sg to 1.060. For the fifth, I added 3lbs of orange blossum honey to take the sg to 1.065.

I usually use dry ale yeast, mostly Nottingham and S04. This year I also did a few with US05 and S23 and in the keg batches I justed started, I’m using two liquid yeasts – Wyeast 3068 and 4184, along with Nottingham and S04. I’m also using S04 for the Cyser. S04 seems to do the best for unpasteurized cysers. The 3068 is producing a lot of foam and I’ve had to clean up that carboy a couple of times. For the dry yeasts I don’t use a starter – just pitch the yeast right on the surface of the ¼ the packet of yeast at a time, floating it on the surface until it sinks. After all 4 pitches of yeast have rehydrated and sunk, shake the carboy to make sure none of the sugar or honey is settling on the bottom.

Fermentation usually starts in less than 12 hours, airlock bubbles after 24 hours and strong fermentation for 6 to 8 days. When the fermentation starts slowing down a week or so later, check the sg and taste periodically to determine when to stop fermentation. I usually cold crash when the sg is between 1.004 and 1.010, depending on overall taste. Rack the carboy into a spare, put it in the fridge at 35 degrees for a day to settle and rack it again back to the original and let it settle.

For pasteurized juice, its pretty much good to go at this point if you don’t mind drinking it a little cloudy. For unpasteurized juice, I let it sit for a few more weeks to clear out a little more, usually until six weeks after I got the juice, because by then I need the carboy to get new juice. I generally let unpasteurized juice sit in the keg for at least a month and sometimes much longer for the tartness to mellow out, however I’m pretty sure that will be changing now that I’m cutting back on the k-meta at the beginning.

I’m hoping to find a good balance of k-meta and sorbate that can stop the fermentation without cold crashing and not effect the taste. That will allow a single racking between primary and secondary, which will save a step. I’d also like to get rid of adding k-meta before fermentation if it doesn’t adversely affect how long it keeps. That would save time as well. Right now I figure it takes me about 15 hours total to make 5 kegs from picking up the juice at the press to putting it in kegs. Most of the time is cleaning and sanitizing the vessels each time I rack. I’d like to get it down to 10 hours for total processing time on 5 kegs and put away 25 - 30 kegs a season, which ought to last until next season.

My best recipe so far depends on who you ask. I personally prefer something in the 1.004 to 1.006 range with a body that is more like an ale than a wine, with a semi-tart apple finish and not a lot of non-fruit flavors. Most of my friends tastes range from something more like a dry white wine at 1.000 to something that tastes more like a Woodchuck at 1.010. I’ve found that when serving cider its nice to have at least two kegs, one on the sweet side and the other on the dry side. Cysers are popular, and usually get finished first at a party, although I’m not crazy about them myself. Last year I did a couple of kegs where I added raspberries to the secondary, which came out really good.

Other than that, its all about matching the juice with the yeast, which is a constantly changing thing because the juice changes throughout the season. Everything made with the above yeasts has come out good. The first seven keg batches this season were with Jonathan juice which is good and tart, and so far the S04 and Nottingham taste the best of those. The five batches in secondary were made with Stayman, Granny smith and Golden delicious, and the US05 and S04 cyser are the most promising so far. Too early to tell with the most recent batch which is Staymans and Winesaps. There are a couple of local orchards that sell “vintage” apples that are supposed to be really good for cider – Albemarle pippens, Northern Spys and Russetts. I’ve thought about buying some and doing a custom pressing, but that would be really expensive, so for now I’m using whatever is readily available at the commercial juice presses.

My favorite batches from last year came from 12 gallons of unpasteurized juice that was a mix of half Granny smith and half Yorks. It had an sg of 1.060, and was insanely tart because of all the Granny smith, so I split it up into 5 kegs with slightly different amounts of juice and filled the rest with pasteurized juice that was mostly Staymans, then added 12oz turbinado and 6 oz corn sugar and Nottingham yeast for all five batches. They were all slightly different and all really good.
 
Very interesting. Thanks for the input. I think I'll let it get to six weeks from pitching since that's around where CvilleKevin kegged and since yours has continued to improve in the keg as of just over six weeks (if I'm doing the math right). I'm considering using the fining agents left over from a J.Spagnols wine kit to clear it faster but not certain I want to put that much "stuff" in my cider. If I do I'll post on how that turns out. Thanks again!
 
Just read all this. Great.

Questions. I'm just using wyeast 4766
I remember Kevin was unimpressed. Was this because ferment too quick and bad to clear? What can I do to fix?
Also I read that start pH should be 3.5 or so. Do you know if pH comes back up, ie are fruit acids fermented or is it impossible to tell because co2 drops pH anyway? I added a load of malic acid and had to guess pH by taste. I'll check tomorrow but maybe went too far. 15 tablespoons in 6 us gallons?
I also added fructose 1kg since I read all sugar in apples is fructose and I found a big tub of it at local supermarket sucrose I heard goes apply. How about fructose? Any different or waste of money? Cheers
 
Did you go about this with a design of experiment!?

Sort of - I was getting bored with Notty and was looking to come up with some new alternative recipes, as well as evaluating some different juice options that I had. It took longer than I thought.

what criteria did you use for your responses? Were they all qualitative measures or did you have quantitative responses as well?

Each time I bottled a new round of experimental batches, I'd invite a bunch of friends over and have them rate them from 1-10, depending on what they liked. That would be the qualitative part. The quantitative evaluation was seeing which kegs float fastest at parties.

Questions. I'm just using wyeast 4766
I remember Kevin was unimpressed. Was this because ferment too quick and bad to clear? What can I do to fix?

Yeah, the 4766 did not work very well for me. End result was bland and not a lot of body. If you search this forum for 4766, it seems like not a lot of people have had good luck with this yeast, but a few have. If you you dont let it ferment out fully, you'll probably get more apple taste. If you let it go dry, you'll want to let this one age for a long time.

Also I read that start pH should be 3.5 or so.

Yeah, thats the conventional wisdom, although I've fermented juice that was as high as 4.0 and it tasted fine. Supposedly a higher pH must is more susceptible to infections, but I havent had problems. I just let it go a little drier to get some bite. The key is to start with flavorful juice - preferably with good acidity, but I'd take big flavor at 4.0 over just OK flavor at 3.5.

Do you know if pH comes back up, ie are fruit acids fermented or is it impossible to tell because co2 drops pH anyway?
I dont think so, but I've only measured pH after fermentation a couple of times, and it was the same as before fermentation. It might come up a bit during malolactic fermentation. I havent measured this, but tastes like this might be the case. The perception of acidity changes a lot during regular fermentation though, as the sugars balance the acids. The lower you let the sg go, the greater the perceived acidity.

I added a load of malic acid and had to guess pH by taste. I'll check tomorrow but maybe went too far. 15 tablespoons in 6 us gallons?

That sounds like a load. My experience with adding acid is that it tastes artificial. Better to just find a better apple blend or just ferment a little drier if you cant find tart apples.

How about fructose? Any different or waste of money?

Havent tried it, should work fine though.
 
Cider50.jpg


I picked up another batch of juice last Monday. The mix was Stayman, Albemarle Pippen, and Winesap. Tastes great, although for some reason these Pippens were not as tart as last year. Fortunately the Winesaps were plenty tart. The sg was 1.062, so I didnt add any sugar to these batches.

For this round, I added a half dose of k-meta (1/8tsp in 6 gal) to 3 of the batches. I havent used k-meta prior to pitching yeast in the past four years, but I wanted to replicate an old Wy3068 recipe that my GF liked and also wanted to compare Brupaks and Wy3056 with and without k-meta. So far, it hasnt made much difference, probably because the acidity was relatively low to start and I only added half a dose. Adding the k-meta lightened up the juice a bit, but there wasnt a huge difference in the taste. 24 hours later, the juice with the k-meta tasted just a little less sweet, but if I did not have the two glasses side by side, it would be hard to tell the difference. I did a similar comparison 4 years ago and it was easy to pick out the difference with half a dose of k-meta, but that juice was more tart to start with

The new batches are in the foreground:

Two batches with Brupaks yeast, with and without k-meta.
Two batches with Wy3056 yeast, with and without k-meta.
Wy3068 with k-meta
Gervins English Ale yeast (AKA Notty), no k-meta
WLP041, no k-meta
S23, no k-meta

The Stayman, Empire, Winesap batches have all been crashed and are clearing on the back shelf. I crashed the WLP041 batch at 1.022, which is a little sweet for me, but my GF likes it a lot and its kinda growing on me. I kegged that batch over the weekend. Also, crashed one of the Brupaks batches at 1.016 at GF's request. The rest were all crashed at 1.010 or 1.012

The batches from the first pressing are almost gone. I just kegged the Wy3068 batch, which was the last one to clear (took a little over 2 months after the crash). Still have a couple others on tap.
 
Thanks for response & I'm looking fwd to results of your expts

Regarding malic acid I found this quite useful.

http://www.polynt.it/user/download.aspx?FILE=OBJ00357.PDF&TIPO=FLE&NOME=Brochure_Acido_Malico

Maybe it could help you get consistency with flavors since it seems to affect taste a lot?

I am not bothered to use it is is natural product but yes 13 table spoons way too much. Tasted ok when I added it but its like making curry. Once you've put some malic acid on your tongue everything tastes a bit limp afterwards.

The manufacturers suggest 1/2 % for jams. I was using nasty cheap store juice. 13 spoons at a guesstimate 15g per spoon puts me at 0.8% Assuming juice had say double. . I'm guessing im at about double or three times. I had the brain wave to use calcium supplement pills to neutralize. Tried one it fizzed nothing bad happened to taste. So I need to remove about 90g of malic acid which according to my back of envelope calculation will take about 60g cal carb.
However calcium malate has solubility of 0.3% at room temp at cold crash could easily be half that then id expect most of the calcium malate will precipitate out so I might save it. Right now it has a metallic aftertaste from the acid afterburn. It will be hard to drink without adjustment. However the apple note is much stronger after adding it.

Follow up
2tsp sodium bicarbonate
18g cal carb
Taste vastly improved. Feint metallic taste will see if ferment helps that
 
CvilleKevin,

I picked up 5 gallons of cider to take another shot at this. I'm going to grow my yeast (Cotes de Blanc) culture tomorrow and pitch with a tablespoon of yeast nutrient and no addition of sulfites or pectic enzyme. The cider has been sitting in the refrigerator at 40 F and will be there till tomorrow (48 hrs total) and is starting to build up a thick lees on the bottom of the carboy. Would there be any benefit in racking off that lees before pitching my yeast?

Also, once you finish your primary fermentation and are racking to secondary, do you top off your secondary vessel with something? if so, with what and how close to the top?

Thanks!
 
... [snip] the cider I made from pasteurized juice was all gone by the end of March and it tasted fine until then... [snip] But the unpasteurized stuff was stored in the same place and survived just fine.

I just bottled my first cider, so this pricked up my ears. By "unpasteurized" do you mean "with sulfates" or untreated at all?

Thanks for the great info, you just saved me years of experimenting!
 
Would there be any benefit in racking off that lees before pitching my yeast?

Maybe. Depends on juice/process. I've let the juice clear and siphoned off the lees on a few batches and did not notice much difference. Not worth the extra effort for me. OTOH I have a friend who does this with great results.

once you finish your primary fermentation and are racking to secondary, do you top off your secondary vessel with something?

I start with about 5.5 gal in a 6 gallon carboy, so if everything works out, it will just fill a 5 gallon secondary after the crash. If not, I fill any head space with CO2

By "unpasteurized" do you mean "with sulfates" or untreated at all?

At the time I wrote that, I was treating unpasteurized cider with k-meta to kill wild yeast before pitching yeast. The recommended dose for k-meta is more than is needed for most reasonably acidic apple juice and ends up functioning as preservative, which is why those unpasteurized batches lasted longer

When I stopped using sulfites, four years ago, about half the batches that were still around started turn after about 6 months and I made a few kegs of vinegar. Since then I've been more careful to reduce oxygen contact. Last year I only had a few batches start to turn. Now I can recognize when its starting to turn and pitch sulfite if necessary, which I did on a couple batches (an advantage of storing in kegs).
 
Two batches of cider into the primaries, the first with 5 lbs of honey, lavlin 71B 1122yeast in 2.5 gallons of juice from the apples on the property (SG 1.050 prior to honey) and 5 gallons of macintosh with Nottingham yeast, no added sugar and SG of 1.048 to start. Plum wine I secondaries and strawberry wine in bottles......a good year so far.
 
When I stopped using sulfites, four years ago, about half the batches that were still around started turn after about 6 months and I made a few kegs of vinegar. Since then I've been more careful to reduce oxygen contact. Last year I only had a few batches start to turn. Now I can recognize when its starting to turn and pitch sulfite if necessary, which I did on a couple batches (an advantage of storing in kegs).

So you're saying, with responsible oxygen handling (airlock, top off as high as possible after the initial fermentation), i shouldn't have a problem with these keeping for > 6 months? New ciderererer, trying to find the differences between beer and cider.
 
So you're saying, with responsible oxygen handling (airlock, top off as high as possible after the initial fermentation), i shouldn't have a problem with these keeping for > 6 months?

Right - with good oxygen handling, you should be able to get 12-18 months without preservatives. I just did a tasting last weekend where we opened a bunch of bottles that were over 2 years old, no preservatives. A couple had started to get the vinegar tang, but none had completely turned and most were fine. This was from filling bottles from keg tap. Using a counterpressure filler should extend shelf life even further.
 
This has been a feast of a thread to read over the past few days. I've taken a lot of notes and I'm about ready to start.

I was hoping to run my basic approach past you guys to get your thoughts...

1. First off, this will be small batch stuff for my wife and I. I have a small corny keg setup with two 2.5 gallon kegs (although I recently discovered 1.75 cornys...very tempted)

2. I intend to use a mix of commercial juices from local retailers. It can aid in the development of a more consistent final product. I expect the juices to be fruity, as you've said they are designed to be drunk as is. Maybe WF and a 1.5 liter Martinellis unfiltered. I intend to juice some tart fresh apples to supplement the jug juice, hopefully a better rounded start.

3. Sweeten with sugar to 1.06 or so. Probably start with Kevin's cane/dextrose mix ratio. In the end, we're talking 2 gallons in 2.5 gallon ferm bucket.

4. Try several batches of same mix with different yeasts to see what I like and see difference. Figuring S04, Notty, a Belgian, a wheaty, etc.

5. Once I get a feel for it, I'd like to branch out to other flavors...
Branch out from there...honey, brown sugar, fruits, grains, nuts.

Sound like a fair approach?

when I eventually get to fruits, when is a good time to add? Before ferment, midway as was described at least once? Experiment with the timing?

As far as cold crashing, I have a monstrous, circa 1960 freezer and a decent size bar fridge (for cornys and shelves for bottled beer/growlers). Would a first stop in the freezer be acceptable? Prior to freezing, move to the fridge?


Thanks in advance!
 
Sound like a fair approach?

yep

when I eventually get to fruits, when is a good time to add?

A couple days before the crash has worked best for me. That gives enough time for the flavor to permeate and the pulp usually comes out fairly easily during the crash. If you add too early, the fruit flavor tends to dissipate a bit. If you leave it in the secondary, you get more flavor, but the pulp tends to dissolve and make the cider take longer to clear. YMMV so probably wont hurt to experiment a bit with the timing

Would a first stop in the freezer be acceptable? Prior to freezing, move to the fridge?

I've never tried that, but it should work. Generally, the faster you can chill the juice, the more likely it is to stay stable after the crash. Just be careful not to let the juice actually freeze. In my experience, if the juice freezes, then the cider takes longer to clear and is less likely to stay stable after the crash.
 
My efforts have been good so far.

Last Sunday, I mixed up a bit over 1.5 gallons of juice, including what essentially ended up as a fine pureee (3 Jazz apples and 3 Gr.Smiths that were run through a ninja blender). OG was 1.045. I sweetened with 2/3 cane & 1/3 dextrose to OG 1.06.

I split the mixture between two 1-gallon carboys. I was happy with my sanitation efforts. I put 1/2 a pack of S-04 in one and 3/4 of a pack of Wyeast 1010 (American Wheat) in the other. The S-04 took off within 6 hours (it was put in dry in multiple shakes, letting it settle in each time). The 1010 took a good 60 hours to visibly start. I have them in a steadily cool place. They've been 61F-63F for the past week. I took a few SG's of the S-04 batch only (since it was visibly more active):

OG 1.06
4-day SG 1.03 (took SG cuz krausen starting to fall, very sweet)
5-day SG 1.024
7-day SG 1.02 (7-day SG of 1010 yeast batch 1.03)

1010 has slight sulfury smell. Taste is sharp, not tart, but still sweet. S-04 is simply sweet apple, like good applesauce.

But today I think I might have made a mistake on my OG readings. I pitched at 73F. The OG was 1.06 at 73F. I'm at work and don't have my hydrometer on hand but I'm betting if I check the OG vs. the calibrated temp my OG might have been much higher. Hence my fear that the S-04 batch might be finishing up at a higher FG. Based on the taste, I'm sure I'd like to get it to 1.01-1.005. (The 1010 batch is pleasingly complex as-is, to be honest).

Any thoughts?
 
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