Valves and connections for propane on single tier

I have hunted through most of the old threads regarding propane plumbing on a single tier stand, and am left with just a few questions:

I would like the plumbing to follow this flow (if possible):

LP tank-->30PSI reg-->1/2" black iron pipe-->1/2" ball valve-->1/2"black iron pipe-->gas needle valve-->yellow flexible gas line-->burner

I want to include the ball valve as on/off control and the needle valve for burner control (until I can afford honeywell gas valves and automation).

Can I include both ball valve and needle for now? Once I automate, I will remove the needle valve, attach the honeywell and use flexible line to the burner.

Can the flexible gas line be that close to the burner (11" banjo)?

Automation is a pricey jump, so I want to be able to brew on my stand a few times while I save up.

Thanks in advance for any comments, I'm sure I will have more questions as I go.

that should work fine. Really no need for the ball valve, as the needle valve will accomplish the same thing. Even once you add honeywells, the needle valves are still good to have. Once you switch to automation though you will have to change out the regulator. You will need to go to a low pressure (11" water column) and then either switch the orifice in your burner to a low pressure one, or drill out the current to the correct size.

bucfanmike said:

Once you switch to automation though you will have to change out the regulator. You will need to go to a low pressure (11" water column) and then either switch the orifice in your burner to a low pressure one, or drill out the current to the correct size.

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Could I just start with low pressure now? Would that affect any of my fittings or pipe diameters other than the burner orifice?

yes. the only difference in high pressure and low pressure banjos is the orifice size. There are lots of threads about how to drill out the high pressure orifice. Without looking I believe it to be about 3/32, but that is just off the top of my head. You will want a good regulator, like a marshall 290, something with a high btu rating. careful also with the actual connector that you use on the propane tank, different color ones have different flow regulators in them. Im not sure which color is which, but best to find the pol fittings that dont have restrictions built in.

I just finished my single tier build and went through the exact same steps. I ended up using stainless steel pipe rather than black iron. My old setup rusted like crazy. I also went with Apollo brass ball valves and put needle values after those for fine control. I have a 30 psi setup too. I used 18" stainless flex tube to hook up my banjo burners.

I posted a YouTube video of the build if you are interested.

352brewery said:

I just finished my single tier build and went through the exact same steps. I ended up using stainless steel pipe rather than black iron. My old setup rusted like crazy. I also went with Apollo brass ball valves and put needle values after those for fine control. I have a 30 psi setup too. I used 18" stainless flex tube to hook up my banjo burners.

I posted a YouTube video of the build if you are interested.

Click to expand...

Wow, how perfect! Your stand looks great, too.

Where did you get the needle valves? Are they 1/2" to 3/8" reducing or is there an extra reducer fit in somewhere?

Are you able to control temps pretty well off those needles? Are the gas valves on the rear of the stand inconvenient?

Ill watch your other videos to answer the rest of my questions. Thanks!

bucfanmike said:

yes. the only difference in high pressure and low pressure banjos is the orifice size. There are lots of threads about how to drill out the high pressure orifice. Without looking I believe it to be about 3/32, but that is just off the top of my head. You will want a good regulator, like a marshall 290, something with a high btu rating. careful also with the actual connector that you use on the propane tank, different color ones have different flow regulators in them. Im not sure which color is which, but best to find the pol fittings that dont have restrictions built in.

Click to expand...

Great. I'll probably go low pressure then. Dedicated low pressure regulator or adjustable for convenience?

dedicated low pressure if you are considering adding honeywell valves anytime in the future. They need a set 11" water column pressure.

352brewery, can you post some info about your pump controller box? I like yours better than light switches.

I didn't like the "light-switch" option either so I took some ideas from the Electric Brewery website and built this junction box. It was pretty easy to put together.

Here's the list of materials and where you can get them online.

• 6x6x4 PVC Junction Box: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000VS4BBU/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
• 2 Switches: http://www.ebay.com/itm/290628632973?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2648
• 2 Led Lights: http://www.ebay.com/itm/220961477945?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649
• 3 Cord Grips: http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/118/839/=kswl3u
• 1 Long extension cord: Home Depot / Lowes

The box does not have any holes but you can drill it easily with a 7/8 hole saw.

352brewery said:

I didn't like the "light-switch" option either so I took some ideas from the Electric Brewery website and built this junction box. It was pretty easy to put together.

Click to expand...

Thanks! I ended up wiring the switches to control an outlet. I wanted to avoid cutting the plug end off the pump cord.

In other news, I found 1/4" needle valves and am going to run 1/4" aluminum lines from the valves to the burners. Now I just need the 90 degree orifices like you found.

Any response to my questions a few posts previous?

You are going to have a problem with the 1/4" line as it will only give you about 40K BTU due to the size. You really need to keep it 1/2" to get the max out of your banjo burner, which is 100k BTU at high pressure. The 1/2" ball valve will give you plenty adjustability. The link below will show you the BTU delivered for various sizes and lengths.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/propane-gas-pipe-sizing-d_827.html

Here is my set up.

de3isit said:

You are going to have a problem with the 1/4" line as it will only give you about 40K BTU due to the size. You really need to keep it 1/2" to get the max out of your banjo burner, which is 100k BTU at high pressure. The 1/2" ball valve will give you plenty adjustability.

Click to expand...

So you use 1/2" all the way to the orifice? I would like to keep the needle valve, is its inclusion going to restrict everything down the line after it? FWIW, I am going to run low pressure so I can eventually step up to honeywell valves. From what I have read the regulator determines your btus, but does dropping down to 1/4" for 10" line restrict the flow that much that it will throw everything off?

The banjos are rated at 100K BTU and with a 1/4" line your only going to get about 40K BTU out of the burners. I really don't see a need for the needle valve. I don't have a Honeywell gas valve on my boil kettle. I just use the 1/2" ball valve to control the gas flow and never have an issue.

I think I would prefer to have the fine control of a needle valve, especially on my mash. I can see how a ball valve for the BK is sufficient though.

Also, I see there is some debate over the effect of 1/4" line in other threads. Anyone else who uses 1/4" in a propane setup have any comments? Is 40-60k BTUs enough for HLT & MT? Do I need more for the BK?

Line size isn't a debatable issue. It's simple physics. If you check out the link in my original reply it shows you the effect of line size and length. I you can live with 40K BTU then you will be fine. I wouldn't see it as a problem on the MLT, but it will take a long time to get the HLT up to strike temp.

Anyway, good luck and happy brewing!

de3isit said:

Line size isn't a debatable issue. It's simple physics. If you check out the link in my original reply it shows you the effect of line size and length. I you can live with 40K BTU then you will be fine. I wouldn't see it as a problem on the MLT, but it will take a long time to get the HLT up to strike temp.

Anyway, good luck and happy brewing!

Click to expand...

Thanks for the tips, I appreciate it, I think I go back to high pressure for now. I understand physics, wasn't trying to debate that, just any effects the size has on usability of other stands. I was less concerned when I learned most regulator hoses feeding the whole set up only have an inner diameter of 1/4" and many stand-builders like onehoppyguy routinely throw in 1/4" needle valves on their set ups.

http://norfolk.craigslist.org/for/3490516422.html

Not to step on the propane talk but I was looking for the same. Stuff valves and so on and look what I came across .

miker1529 said:

http://norfolk.craigslist.org/for/3490516422.html

Not to step on the propane talk but I was looking for the same. Stuff valves and so on and look what I came across .

Click to expand...

That's a brewstand alright.

I'm about to build a single tier brew system, it will be fired with propane. Am I correct in thinking that gas grill propane bottles are high pressure and that the electronic gas valves are generally low pressure, or does it have nothing to do with the container and all about the regulator?

herc1354 said:

I'm about to build a single tier brew system, it will be fired with propane. Am I correct in thinking that gas grill propane bottles are high pressure and that the electronic gas valves are generally low pressure, or does it have nothing to do with the container and all about the regulator?

Click to expand...

It depends on the regulator. Electronic gas valves need a set 11" WC regulator, aka low pressure.

ColoHox said:

It depends on the regulator. Electronic gas valves need a set 11" WC regulator, aka low pressure.

Click to expand...

If your using Honeywell gas valves the regulator doesn't mean as much, due to the ability of the gas valve to control inlet pressure and and outlet pressure. You do need to make sure the regulator is big enought to handle the required BTU's for your burners. I have included the link for the electronic ignition gas valve. Let me know if you need the standing pilot link instead.

https://www.forwardthinking.honeywell.com/related_links/combustion/vr8345m/install/69_2013.pdf

de3isit said:

If your using Honeywell gas valves the regulator doesn't mean as much, due to the ability of the gas valve to control inlet pressure and and outlet pressure. You do need to make sure the regulator is big enought to handle the required BTU's for your burners. I have included the link for the electronic ignition gas valve. Let me know if you need the standing pilot link instead.

https://www.forwardthinking.honeywell.com/related_links/combustion/vr8345m/install/69_2013.pdf

Click to expand...

Hey de3isit. I saw your post with your setup on a different thread and I was confused about what pressure you were running into your Honeywell valves. Are you saying you can run high pressure (10-30 PSI) into your Honeywell valves and you get 11"WC coming out of them? I'm sure I'm misunderstanding you here somewhere.

While impatiently waiting for a reply I did manage to uncover this document detailing a huge amount of what people want to know about gas valves. So, I thought I'd share.

http://www.invensyscontrols.com/spaw2/SiteContent/Training HEATING GAS VALVE SYSTEMS_1.pdf

The important detail that is relevant to my question is that it implies that most gas valves are designed to take a range of inlet pressure (11-14" WC) and adjusts it to about 10" WC on outlet. I can only assume that it does so with the integral regulator. Also it does say that valves will not fail or lock up if used with excessive pressure, it will merely regulate poorly.

So far, I'm concluding that you could probably design a high pressure system and then use a needle valve to step down the pressure leading into a gas valve since you don't need an exact pressure for them to function correctly. Though I guess it's only a tiny price advantage over just using a single stage 11"WC regulator.

You can run high pressure LP into the valve as long as you convert the gas valve to LP with the spring kit that comes with it. The outlet pressure is adjustable with an allen wrench.