Sanyo 4912 Kegerator problems

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pabloj13

pabloj13

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A buddy of mine purchased a 4912 kegerator setup from a friend a few months ago. It is drilled through the top. Beer lines, in a PVC pipe surrounded by insulation, run up into a ceramic draft tower on top of the bar. The CO2 tank sits outside and the gas line also runs out of the top. A small project box fan pumps cold fridge air up along the beer lines and into the tower to keep the lines cold.

The problem is that it cannot get the beer even remotely cold enough. The compressor runs constantly. The back freezes up, so I think the coolant is ok. I took the seal off and made sure it was completely held on by the whiteboard. I also sealed up any gaps in the PVC pipe and/or from the top of the fridge with foam and insulation tape. If I put a flashlight inside the fridge at night, I cannot see any light escaping. Right now the corny keg is sitting at 53 degrees. There is a Johnson controller set to 39 degrees. The temp probe is in a small bottle of freezer goo.

Any ideas? I thought about a small PC fan to recirculate the air, but it seems the problem is bigger than that since the unit does not even get remotely cold enough.
 
You say you have a "small project box fan pumps cold fridge air up along the beer lines and into the tower to keep the lines cold".
Do you have a cooling air line set up to return the tower cooling air? Also, where is temp probe placed that controls the refrigeration unit? If it is the standard Sanyo thermostat controlling the unit, I think it might be setup or adjusted wrong.

I have 2 of the refers and do not have a single problem with them.

Please describe your exact set up. Perhaps we can help and advise.

P-J
 
MannyZ said:
How long has the keg been in there? Does the compressor ever kick off?
Click to expand...

Even with no keg in there it behaves that way. It's been weeks.
 
P-J said:
You say you have a "small project box fan pumps cold fridge air up along the beer lines and into the tower to keep the lines cold".
Do you have a cooling air line set up to return the tower cooling air? Also, where is temp probe placed that controls the refrigeration unit? If it is the standard Sanyo thermostat controlling the unit, I think it might be setup or adjusted wrong.

I have 2 of the refers and do not have a single problem with them.

Please describe your exact set up. Perhaps we can help and advise.

P-J
Click to expand...

You know I don't remember seeing a return line. I had wondered about that as well.
 
MannyZ said:
He mentioned he's using an external temp control:
Click to expand...
I missed that.

Ok: Right there this presents a serious problem. Now I understand why it is freeing up. The next issue is where is the temp probe placed? And then: Is there a return path for the cooling air being blown into the tower?
 
Well when I've monitored my temps closely I only get a temp drop of about 2ºF per hour, so if the corny is room temp it would take a while to chill. If it turns off at all before the beer reaches temp perhaps your probe setup is not matching your actual beer temp? Maybe try dropping the temp on the Johnson to 34º and tape the probe to the side of the corny.
 
P-J said:
I missed that.

Ok: Right there this presents a serious problem. Now I understand why it is freeing up. The next issue is where is the temp probe placed? And then: Is there a return path for the cooling air being blown into the tower?
Click to expand...

Using a Johnson controller presents a problem? I have moved the temp probe around with no effect. It just can't keep up. It's gotta be the return path for the tower cooling air. It's a really short run, probably 2.5 feet to the tower. Do you think that fan is even necessary?
 
pabloj13 said:
It's gotta be the return path for the tower cooling air. It's a really short run, probably 2.5 feet to the tower. Do you think that fan is even necessary?
Click to expand...

The fan setup is just to keep the foam down on the first pour due to the tower lines, shanks and taps being room temp. I don't use a fan in my Sanyo and I rarely have trouble with the first pour. I rub the taps down with ice for a minute before the first pour if the beer on tap happens to start giving foamy pours.

If you want to eliminate all the variables for an all out test you can unplug the blower, turn the factory thermostat up to max, and plug the Sanyo directly into the outlet, bypassing the Johnson. Leave the Johnson plugged in however so you can still use it to monitor the temp without opening the door. Taping the Johnson probe directly to the keg will help you monitor the actual beer temp which will take longer to cool than the gel I'd imagine. Check on it every couple hours, if the fridge is working properly it can freeze your beer.
 
The fan itself might be the problem. I used to use one in my first kegerator but stopped using it when I realized that the fan heated up the air by several degrees. It did keep the tower cooler, but at the expense of the beer itself. I've upgraded to a larger diameter tower and removed the fan and have not had any issues since. the tower stays cold, the beer gets as cold as I'd like and the compressor cycles on and off.
 
Thanks, guys! I am going to have him remove the fan and the controller and make sure the fridge is fine and then test the other two variables.
 
pabloj13 said:
Using a Johnson controller presents a problem? I have moved the temp probe around with no effect. It just can't keep up. It's gotta be the return path for the tower cooling air. It's a really short run, probably 2.5 feet to the tower. Do you think that fan is even necessary?
Click to expand...
And:
The compressor runs constantly. The back freezes up, so I think the coolant is ok.
...
Right now the corny keg is sitting at 53 degrees. There is a Johnson controller set to 39 degrees. The temp probe is in a small bottle of freezer goo.
Click to expand...
I suggest that you get rid of the controller and set the temperature to your target temp using the refrigerator temp control. The refer is being over driven now and is not doing much chilling because it is being over driven and icing the cold plate.

The suggestion by some to set the refer thermostat to max is a huge mistake. And, also like I said, using an external controller is a mistake as well.

P-J
 
P-J said:
And:

I suggest that you get rid of the controller and set the temperature to your target temp using the refrigerator temp control. The refer is being over driven now and is not doing much chilling because it is being over driven and icing the cold plate.

The suggestion by some to set the refer thermostat to max is a huge mistake. And, also like I said, using an external controller is a mistake as well.

P-J
Click to expand...

I don't understand how it could be "over-driven" all the Johnson controller does is provide power to the fridge and cut it off when it reaches target temp, right?
 
pabloj13 said:
I don't understand how it could be "over-driven" all the Johnson controller does is provide power to the fridge and cut it off when it reaches target temp, right?
Click to expand...
If you say so. But then I guess you are not having any problems with the refrigerator. The Sanyo 4912 is a self defrosting unit. It is not a freezer and does not have a freezer compartment. If you bypass the built in controls, then what? You already stated that the cooling plate becomes covered with ice.

Good luck. I'm done.
 
P-J said:
If you say so. But then I guess you are not having any problems with the refrigerator. The Sanyo 4912 is a self defrosting unit. It is not a freezer and does not have a freezer compartment. If you bypass the built in controls, then what? You already stated that the cooling plate becomes covered with ice.

Good luck. I'm done.
Click to expand...

I'm not arguing. I appreciate your help. I'm just trying to understand how it works. I just bought a 4912 myself and would like to avoid the issues. As far as I could tell I am not bypassing and defrost timers or anything, since the Johnson Controller just cuts power at a certain temp. I could see overdriving it if I was telling the Johnson controller to get the fridge to 15 degrees and then set the fridge thermostat to "Max". But this is sitting at 53. The fridge is constantly powered, which means any defrost timers would still be able to function. I checked the parts diagram for the 4912 and couldn't find any defrost timers or heaters. Is it actually self-defrosting?
 
I have the same fridge converted into a kegerator. If it does not reach proper beer temps without the external control then something is wrong with it.

image-3917988801.jpg

I have the temp setting at 5 and it is currently 38 degrees. If I crank it to the max setting it will go down to 30 degrees without freezing the compressor. Much too cold for good beer, but it does not need the external control.
 
pabloj13 said:
I'm not arguing. I appreciate your help. I'm just trying to understand how it works. I just bought a 4912 myself and would like to avoid the issues. As far as I could tell I am not bypassing and defrost timers or anything, since the Johnson Controller just cuts power at a certain temp. I could see overdriving it if I was telling the Johnson controller to get the fridge to 15 degrees and then set the fridge thermostat to "Max". But this is sitting at 53. The fridge is constantly powered, which means any defrost timers would still be able to function. I checked the parts diagram for the 4912 and couldn't find any defrost timers or heaters. Is it actually self-defrosting?
Click to expand...
It is sitting at 53° because the cold plate is freezing over and the cold air is not able to properly circulate within the refer. It is self defrosting by design. It is a refrigerator after all. There is no defrost timer or heater for defrosting. The cold plate is for cooling not for freezing.

When you isolate the Johnson temp probe in a location that cannot react real time with the ambient temperature, the refrigerator will run non stop. This is what is causing the freeze up. You have the temp probe in a small bottle of freezer goo and therefore isolated and unable to react realtime. You will have the same problem if you stick the probe to the outside of a keg. It is unable to react real time.
 
Not to hijack this thread - but do either of you guys that posted that you have this unit have a link to the manual or wiring diagram? I've been thinking about converting mine to a kegerator and haven't wanted to do the cornstarch trick to figure out where the coolant lines run.
 
Kealia said:
Not to hijack this thread - but do either of you guys that posted that you have this unit have a link to the manual or wiring diagram? I've been thinking about converting mine to a kegerator and haven't wanted to do the cornstarch trick to figure out where the coolant lines run.
Click to expand...

From what I understand the coolant line can vary a little in location, so it's worth doing the trick. Although I haven't seen any case where people drilled dead center and hit the coolant line.
 
Kealia said:
Not to hijack this thread - but do either of you guys that posted that you have this unit have a link to the manual or wiring diagram? I've been thinking about converting mine to a kegerator and haven't wanted to do the cornstarch trick to figure out where the coolant lines run.
Click to expand...
The cross over line for the condenser is tack welded to the under skin of the metal top and its location is variable. If you don't map it(cornstarch & alcohol), you run a very serious risk of destroying the Sanyo. Be very careful.....

Just a FYI: I converted my first one in 2005 and have done many since then. Today you are lucky to have one as they are not available any more.

P-J
 
Ok, I'm sticking with my open-the-door-and-use-my-picnic-tap method. :eek:
 
When I measured where to drill my 4912 I simply chilled down the metal top with freezer packs. I pulled the freezer packs off, waited for a tiny amount of condensation to form and plugged in the fridge. Within seconds I could see where the line was and I marked it with tape. Super quick and no mess :)
 
I think DrHops is right that your fan unit running too warm may be the source of the problem.

I used the Johnson to help dial in my factory thermostat last year and haven't needed it since. My beer stays around 36ºF with the dial a little below the 5 setting. Many people have their probe in freezer goo to approximate liquid temp and not air temp. If the Johnson is working properly and has been correctly configured there's no reason to not use it as your thermostat. I had better use for mine on a fermentation chamber so I re-purposed it. Operating instructions for the A419 can be found here:
http://cgproducts.johnsoncontrols.com/MET_PDF/125188.PDF

I have a small amount of ice buildup on my cooling plate, it's fine. Under normal operation it will freeze any condensation when it's on. When it cycles off and the ambient temp inside is far enough from freezing the ice will thaw and drip down and out the drain hole into the drip tray above the compressor. The colder you keep it the more it will run and the more ice it will accumulate. Once you pass a certain threshold it won't warm up enough to thaw between cycles and it will begin to build up. I have my door open probably more often than the average user (checking levels, swapping kegs, bottling from the keg, grabbing a CO2 line to purge, ect.) so I get more ice.

I think too much ice buildup is a problem because it will start to insulate the cold plate making the fridge less efficient. Also a large amount of ice means a large amount of water in the drain pan when you defrost it, so it will overflow onto the components and the floor.
 
MannyZ said:
I think DrHops is right that your fan unit running too warm may be the source of the problem.

I used the Johnson to help dial in my factory thermostat last year and haven't needed it since. My beer stays around 36ºF with the dial a little below the 5 setting. Many people have their probe in freezer goo to approximate liquid temp and not air temp. If the Johnson is working properly and has been correctly configured there's no reason to not use it as your thermostat. I had better use for mine on a fermentation chamber so I re-purposed it. Operating instructions for the A419 can be found here:
http://cgproducts.johnsoncontrols.com/MET_PDF/125188.PDF

I have a small amount of ice buildup on my cooling plate, it's fine. Under normal operation it will freeze any condensation when it's on. When it cycles off and the ambient temp inside is far enough from freezing the ice will thaw and drip down and out the drain hole into the drip tray above the compressor. The colder you keep it the more it will run and the more ice it will accumulate. Once you pass a certain threshold it won't warm up enough to thaw between cycles and it will begin to build up. I have my door open probably more often than the average user (checking levels, swapping kegs, bottling from the keg, grabbing a CO2 line to purge, ect.) so I get more ice.

I think too much ice buildup is a problem because it will start to insulate the cold plate making the fridge less efficient. Also a large amount of ice means a large amount of water in the drain pan when you defrost it, so it will overflow onto the components and the floor.
Click to expand...

Ok yeah that's more what I was thinking. I took the fan out and so far it is much colder. I have it set just below 5 like you and a number of others have mentioned. Let's see if it lasts! Thanks again for your help. I would love to repurpose my friends Johnson, but alas I am building an Ebay aquarium temp controller for my fermentation chamber. :tank:
 
Update: Problems were several fold. The gasket had a big gap where it had pulled off. I fixed that, but still had major icing. In an attempt to isolate the problem, removed the fan and temp controller. Still had major icing. Unbeknownst to me, though, the previous owner had disabled the fridge temp dial so it was running constantly. Put back the Johnson controller and it was better but still icing some. Then plugged the hole where the lines head up to the draft tower. Icing fixed and temps holding steady. That's great. But now the lines and taps are warm since there is no way for air to enter the tower. Any ideas on how to cool the lines without opening up the great hole of icy doom?
 
This is an easy fix, there are lots of threads about this if you need photos. I have done this on all three of the kegerators I have built, the first of which was a Sanyo.

Put some 1/2" copper up the tower making sure some of it extends into the fridge, insulate around it with foam then run your beer lines up the pipe. The copper will cool the lines and keep the first beer foam to a minimum. The more copper pipe that hangs down into the fridge the better it will work.
 

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