Bad Wyeast?

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Randomnoob

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For the second time I used Wyeast package of yeast. I have been storing it in my fridge for two weeks before hand. The first time everything went fine, packaged swelled up and i saw activity the next morning even though I pitched it a bit too warm.

I got the package out of the fridge around 7:45 yesterday morning, I let it sit on my kitchen counter until 11:00 when I broke the inner packet and shook it to mix the nutrient and stuff. It didn't swell very much. I chilled the wort to under 75 and pitched the yeast at 3:15 in the afternoon. The mfg date is May 6, 2013.

This morning I checked it and there was no krausen. There was a thin layer of bubbles and that was it. Of the first five batches I've brewed, two of them had blowoff the next morning and the other three had a couple inches of krausen the next morning.

Should I give it until tomorrow morning to start doing something? Could it be a problem with sanitation, even though I did sanitize everything the same way I did the first five times I brewed. If nothing happens by tomorrow morning should I go to the LHBS and pick up another package of yeast?
 
Just relax. It has not even been 24 hours and you are seeing slight bubbles, so it is starting.

Each fermentation is different. Some take off fast other more slowly. Don't worry. In over 120 batches that I have brewed, guess what? Never had one not ferment. Some took a while to get going, but they always ferment out.

You really should learn how to do a starter. That really helps. Makes better beer and fermentation starts up much quicker.
 
I hd a wyeast3056 that had the nutrient packets doubled over inside on my latest brew. I tried to smack it,but they were too thick to do it with the usual amount of force. I smacked it harder,& it finally broke open. Packet swelled like crazy in a couple hours. By the time I was ready to pitch it,there was only about 1/3 of the liquid volume left. I then realized those spots on the floor weren't coffee,but liquid yeast. Apparently,they fill them from the bottom,& then seal it up. I'd broken that seal. It took about a day & a half to get going. But it's finishing up now. So relax,it'll get there.
 
Yeah, without a starter my fermentations typically take 36 hours at least to show visible activity. +1 to the starter idea. Big difference. With a good starter fermentation starts reliably in 12 hours or less.
 
+1 for starters. I just brewed a batch yesterday and fermentation took off within an hour of pitching. The longest lag I've had with a starter is 6 hours. There is a sticky at the top of this forum that explains how some yeast can take up to 72 hours to begin fermentation. If you are going to use liquid yeast for majority of your batches I'd learn how to make starters. Also at stirstarters.com you can purchase a stir plate for $40.
 
Ok. I thought the whole idea of Wyeast and the inner pack of nutrient was that it was supposed to be a starter and that you really don't need one....
 
Randomnoob said:
Ok. I thought the whole idea of Wyeast and the inner pack of nutrient was that it was supposed to be a starter and that you really don't need one....

Nope, the nutrient pack simply begins giving the yeast some food and to some degree verifies viability.

Starters are created to build the cell count up to proper pitch rate. A standard 1.050 beer will need somewhere in the neighborhood of 200+billion cells. A month old pack will have about 90-95% viability meaning less than 100B cells so without a starter 2 packs would be recommended minimum
 
On my 1st of two midwest PM Berlin wheat kits,the og was 1.050 (2nd one too). I pitched the swollen WY3956 Bavarian wheat blend yeast at 5:55pm.
By 8:04pm (2 hours & 9 minutes later),it had the airlock center piece pegged against the cap. By 7:39am the next morning,it started bubbling. I'd say that's a good case for pitching a smack pack straight. Provided it's not a high OG wort. So far,liquid yeast pitched straight into 1.046-1.060 wort start fairly quick.
 
My last brewday (Thursday) was the first time I ever made a yeast starter. This was my 2nd time using Wyeast Smack Packs as well and when they arrived from NorthernBrewer, they swelled up pretty good due to the shipping.

I made the yeast starter on Tuesday in a growler and fermentation started 4 hours after pitching the yeast. It has now been 3 days and it is still bubbling at a pretty rapid rate. I will now always use a yeast starter.
 
BansheeRider said:
When do you add the nutrient? I add mine during the boil but I've heard of other methods.

You can add nutrient to the starter, you can add it at 10 minutes left in the boil and you can also add it during late fermentation for ones that seem stuck or sluggish.
 
You can add nutrient to the starter, you can add it at 10 minutes left in the boil and you can also add it during late fermentation for ones that seem stuck or sluggish.

I only boil my starter for 5-7 minutes. I add the nutrient during the boil.
 
It is June! Here come an abundance of posts about swelled, bad Wyeast packs. Make starters for all liquid yeasts and you will know the condition of your yeast before you pitch it in your beer.

If you pitched only a pack of Wyeast you have underpitched. Be prepared to wait most or the 72 hours that is often given as the worry/re-pitch time. Your yeast will have to propagate to cell counts sufficient to ferment your wort. Then fermentation will begin.
 
Pitching one wyeast packet or one white labs vial in a wort up to 1.060 isn't underpitching,ime. They peg the airlock centerpiece against the cap in 2-3 hours. By 7:30-7:50 the next morning,they're bubbling steadily. They won't automatically take 3 days to get going or ruin a beer if there aren't 10 guglplex yeast cells. When the manufacturers give an maximum OG where it'll work in a straight pitch,I'm finding that it's pretty much right up to 1.060 so far.
 
unionrdr said:
Pitching one wyeast packet or one white labs vial in a wort up to 1.060 isn't underpitching,ime. They peg the airlock centerpiece against the cap in 2-3 hours. By 7:30-7:50 the next morning,they're bubbling steadily. They won't automatically take 3 days to get going or ruin a beer if there aren't 10 guglplex yeast cells. When the manufacturers give an maximum OG where it'll work in a straight pitch,I'm finding that it's pretty much right up to 1.060 so far.

Sorry, but this is just not great advice......
Just because fermentation takes off in a reasonable amount of time is not a good reason to suggest under pitching a beer as good advice.

Making a starter is always recommended for liquid yeast to ensure viability as well as proper pitch rate
 
Sorry, but this is just not great advice......
Just because fermentation takes off in a reasonable amount of time is not a good reason to suggest under pitching a beer as good advice.

Making a starter is always recommended for liquid yeast to ensure viability as well as proper pitch rate

Here we go again. It's in the manufactures recommendations. Both of them. I used one vial in a starter,& one pitched directly & the starter one didn't take off any faster. And viability is insured by the nutrient packet in Wyeast packets. If it swells up,the yeast is "viable". In the 5 days or so the 800mL starter needed to get done (too much DME),it didn't give much more than I started with.
And when using dry yeast,it normally takes 8-12 hours to visibly start fermenting. So that to you is STILL underpitching? Why spend $10-$15 on a pound of DME,& 1-2 packets/vials of yeast to make a big truckload so the beer starts visibly in an hour or two?! 8-12 hours is perfectly reasonable,& not underpitching. All the starter does is take the reproductive phase out of the fermenter to cut lag time. That's all.
Well,time to go to the Dr for my old guy checkup. BRB...
 
According to most followed pitch rates, a single pack/vial (100 billion cells) is good for 5 gal of wort up to about 7º P or 1.028. You can surely get away with pitching less than that in many cases, but if you're looking for an optimum count, I'd recommend to always make a starter for anything over 1.030. That or use dry yeast.
 
I have no intention of arguing this with you and hijacking the thread. There are countless threads discussing this.

Regardless of your experience it is bad advice and there is plenty of science explaining why. Chris White even discusses it at length in his own book.

Simply put your date of pack and gravity in either yeast calculator out there and you will see the proper pitch rate is greater than what the pack/vial has in it unless your beer is 1.030 or less.

Although I'm sure you know this already.......
 
Here we go again. It's in the manufactures recommendations. Both of them. I used one vial in a starter,& one pitched directly & the starter one didn't take off any faster. And viability is insured by the nutrient packet in Wyeast packets. If it swells up,the yeast is "viable". In the 5 days or so the 800mL starter needed to get done (too much DME),it didn't give much more than I started with.
And when using dry yeast,it normally takes 8-12 hours to visibly start fermenting. So that to you is STILL underpitching? Why spend $10-$15 on a pound of DME,& 1-2 packets/vials of yeast to make a big truckload so the beer starts visibly in an hour or two?! 8-12 hours is perfectly reasonable,& not underpitching. All the starter does is take the reproductive phase out of the fermenter to cut lag time. That's all.
Well,time to go to the Dr for my old guy checkup. BRB...


Here we go again. I have searched both Wyeast and White Labs and found interviews or videos where their lab people for both companies state that starters should be made. And if I recall correctly they both recommended starters on anything over 1.040.

5 days for an 800 ml starter? It was done in 2-3.
$10 dollars on a pound of DME? 3 lbs costs me $10 and I can make a lot of starters with that much.

"All the starter does is take the reproductive phase out of the fermenter to cut lag time. That's all."

This quote is true. But that is the time when you are producing off flavors by underpitching.

If underpitching works for you by all means. But suggesting it is not a better procedure is doing a dis-service to new brewers.

Make the starters. Your decent beer will be better!
 
Then why does their label state other than what they say in their books??
I'd love to here that one. I don't think it's wrong when they peg the airlock centerpiece against the cap in 2-3 hours,& start visibly fermenting in the same amount of time the dry packets do. And that particular starter had too much DME in it,imo. I remember the video of the white labs guy saying 24 hours was plenty. I think they take longer.
And those yeast calculators,like Mr malty,lean towards the heavy side,IE over-pitching. It just bugs me that the labels say OG of 1.060 or 1.070 on the other (not naming names). Then the book says something else. That should tell you something. At least make up your own mind from direct observation,rather than who said what. Mine were from direct observation.
And no funky off flavors,save for summer heat. And that's tempororay with what I'm able to afford at this point. So in light of personal experiences what with being the average brewer,it is not bad advice. This has been done to death,& if you think $6.50 for liquid yeast,$5.00 for some DME to make a few starters out of is good,then have at it. Good beer is great of course,but you have to keep in mind how much your spending now. Not amortized over how many batches come out of the amounts you buy.
I wasn't called a wizard for nuthin...
 
Then why does their label state other than what they say in their books??

You'd have to ask Chris White that. He does talk quite a bit about pitch rates in the book Yeast.... He definitely contradicts the "one pack/vial for wort up to 1.060" thing though.

From ProBrewer.com:

Pitching rates
The pitching rate for brewer's yeast will depend on the original gravity of the wort to be inoculated. As a rule of thumb, 1 million viable cells per ml of propagated or recycled yeast are inoculated per Plato degree. Liquid and dry yeast manufacturers may have their own recommendation according to their particular product.

Example: For a beer at 10°P or 1.040 gravity (to convert gravity in Plato degrees, divide the last 2 decimals by 4 (i.e. 40/4 = 10). Cell concentration to be inoculated: 10x1x106 cells ml-1 = 1x107 cells ml-1

...also suggests much more yeast than a pack/vial per 5 gal batch. As do MrMalty, BeerSmith and other online pitch rate calcs. No doubt that if conditions are prime (i.e. wort production, temp, dissolved o2, etc.), a pack/vial or two will produce a fine beer, but esters and phenols, along with the precursors to things like diacetyl happen during the reproductive phase (from pitch to high krausen), so you want to limit reproduction in the fermenter.
 
Well,I'm not getting esters like fruity or worse. forget the phenols,not enough to taste anyway. Since they peg the airlock after 2-3 hours,I'd say the reproductive phase has been going pretty well. The biggest reason is that dry yeasts seem to take just as long,even though they have more cells available initially. So it all works out in the end.
 
Then why does their label state other than what they say in their books??

As already said, you would have to ask the yeast manufacturers that question.

I'd love to here that one. I don't think it's wrong when they peg the airlock centerpiece against the cap in 2-3 hours,& start visibly fermenting in the same amount of time the dry packets do.

I would like to know at what temperature you ferment at because I have never had a fermentation peg the centerpiece in 2-3 hours. and I have pitched a pack, dry yeast and starters. The best I have gotten was some bubbling in 4-5 hours.

At least make up your own mind from direct observation,rather than who said what. Mine were from direct observation.

Not to be argumentative but do you think no one has made their own observations. For me, my starters start a lot faster than dry yeast. I have not directly pitched a liquid yeast in almost 2 years and those started very slowly.

And no funky off flavors,save for summer heat. And that's tempororay with what I'm able to afford at this point. So in light of personal experiences what with being the average brewer,it is not bad advice.

This has been done to death,& if you think $6.50 for liquid yeast,$5.00 for some DME to make a few starters out of is good,then have at it. Good beer is great of course,but you have to keep in mind how much your spending now. Not amortized over how many batches come out of the amounts you buy.
I wasn't called a wizard for nuthin...

Well you are really overstating the cost of DME in a starter. I would say that I might use $.50 to $.75 of DME in a starter.

Also there are better ways to save money on yeast rather than underpitching. You can wash yeast, repitch on a cake, freeze vials propagated from the original package, or just use dry yeast.

Well,I'm not getting esters like fruity or worse. forget the phenols,not enough to taste anyway. Since they peg the airlock after 2-3 hours,I'd say the reproductive phase has been going pretty well. The biggest reason is that dry yeasts seem to take just as long,even though they have more cells available initially. So it all works out in the end.

If your procedure is working for you go with it. But I will continue to disagree that it is anything but bad advise to say that you don't need to make a starter when using liquid yeast. At least in anything but very low gravity beers.
 
Well,like I've said before,I chill the wort down to 60-64F. And the wyeast did in fact peg the airlock centerpiece at about 64F in 2-3 hours. Even though it didn't start bubbling till 8-12 hours. This is only the 4th time I've used liquid yeast,& these are my observations. I'm not saying starters aren't need ever. Just that with average gravity beers,starters I've tried didn't speed things up much,if at all. I'll be able to tell more when I mess around with starters more in the future with the yeasts I've saved.
But everything I've said is true to my observations. My basic argument is this-If dry yeasts take 8-12 hours to get through the reproductive phase,& turn out good beers,then why is that not good for liquid yeasts? Yeast is yeast regardless of dry or liquid. The differences (albeit small to my experiences)is in rehydrating or starters. They can cut lag time,but it isn't consisitent or earthshatteringly fast. That kind of thing to me is bordering on over-pitching. What I've been doing has been working,& those that believe it can't...well...my results speak otherwise. So let's just leave it at that till others see what I've experienced. But it's not bad advice if it does work in the proper setting.:mug:
 
Well,like I've said before,I chill the wort down to 60-64F. And the wyeast did in fact peg the airlock centerpiece at about 64F in 2-3 hours. Even though it didn't start bubbling till 8-12 hours. This is only the 4th time I've used liquid yeast,& these are my observations. I'm not saying starters aren't need ever. Just that with average gravity beers,starters I've tried didn't speed things up much,if at all. I'll be able to tell more when I mess around with starters more in the future with the yeasts I've saved.
But everything I've said is true to my observations. My basic argument is this-If dry yeasts take 8-12 hours to get through the reproductive phase,& turn out good beers,then why is that not good for liquid yeasts? Yeast is yeast regardless of dry or liquid. The differences (albeit small to my experiences)is in rehydrating or starters. They can cut lag time,but it isn't consisitent or earthshatteringly fast. That kind of thing to me is bordering on over-pitching. What I've been doing has been working,& those that believe it can't...well...my results speak otherwise. So let's just leave it at that till others see what I've experienced. But it's not bad advice if it does work in the proper setting.:mug:

Regarding your basic argument: A typical 11gram pack of dry yeast properly rehydrated contains a lot more viable yeast cells than a pack/vial of liquid yeast and this is due to the process of manufacturing the dry product. In addition, the dry yeast packs contain all the nutrients and glycol reserves the yeast require for a proper fermentation.

Liquid yeast cells begin to die off almost immediately from the initial date of packaging so even though the pack states 100B cells, the fact is that by the time the end user actually uses it many cells have died off. The nutrient pack inside does nothing more than wake the yeast up but does nothing to actually begin the actual growth/lag phase. This is the primary reason that starters are always recommended when using liquid yeast.

Benefits of making starters, aside from verifying viability and building up proper pitch rate are many. The cost of the initial pack plus the $1.00 of DME makes it a cost effective means of dealing with yeast.

Plus, as I do, If you make your starter 500ml larger than needed you can harvest and save this extra 500ml slurry and save in the fridge. Now when you need to brew another batch you simply use this saved first generation slurry to make another , new stater for only a $1 of DME and repeat. I do this for all strains I use and haven't bought a new pack of yeast in well over a year or two. A tremendous savings over time.

Will a pack of yeast/vial ferment your beer? Yes. Will your beer be better for making a starter, definitely yes, especially as the gravity gets higher. All the yeast experts like Kai, Chris and Jamil have verified and spoken at length regarding this subject and there is a lot of research put into this that is easily accessible not only in this forum but in books and online science articles.

Bottom line-following best practice produces best beer:)
 
Regarding your basic argument: A typical 11gram pack of dry yeast properly rehydrated contains a lot more viable yeast cells than a pack/vial of liquid yeast and this is due to the process of manufacturing the dry product. In addition, the dry yeast packs contain all the nutrients and glycol reserves the yeast require for a proper fermentation.

Liquid yeast cells begin to die off almost immediately from the initial date of packaging so even though the pack states 100B cells, the fact is that by the time the end user actually uses it many cells have died off. The nutrient pack inside does nothing more than wake the yeast up but does nothing to actually begin the actual growth/lag phase. This is the primary reason that starters are always recommended when using liquid yeast.

Benefits of making starters, aside from verifying viability and building up proper pitch rate are many. The cost of the initial pack plus the $1.00 of DME makes it a cost effective means of dealing with yeast.

Plus, as I do, If you make your starter 500ml larger than needed you can harvest and save this extra 500ml slurry and save in the fridge. Now when you need to brew another batch you simply use this saved first generation slurry to make another , new stater for only a $1 of DME and repeat. I do this for all strains I use and haven't bought a new pack of yeast in well over a year or two. A tremendous savings over time.

Will a pack of yeast/vial ferment your beer? Yes. Will your beer be better for making a starter, definitely yes, especially as the gravity gets higher. All the yeast experts like Kai, Chris and Jamil have verified and spoken at length regarding this subject and there is a lot of research put into this that is easily accessible not only in this forum but in books and online science articles.

Bottom line-following best practice produces best beer:)

Yeah,I know all that about dry yeast cell count vs liquid. But pitch temps also come to bare here. Wort temp vs rehydrate/starter temp. Starter temp is easier to get right,since it's done at room temp. Dry yeast rehydrate must be brought down to within 10 degrees of wort temp to keep from shocking the yeast or killing a percentage of them. So that can alter actual cell count at the beginning reproductive phase. No arguments there.
I wonder about how many yeast cells in a liquid packet/vial die by the time we use them? I do have to say,the wyeast packets pegging the airlock center piece in not quite 3 hours during reproductive phase was a 1st. The WL029 German ale/kolsh yeast didn't do that. According to my notes,the light colored hybrid lager (as I named it),starter was pitched @ 7:11pm on 2/12 @ 64F. By 7:14am on 2/13,the temp was slowly rising to 65F & the airlock centerpiece was showing some co2 buildup. By 10am,I realized the airlock was overfilled slightly,corrected that & in a very short time,started bubbling steadilly.
With the PM Berlin wheat beers,using wyeast 3056,(1st batch) I had to run a quick errand during chilling. This was 5/26. Got back to find wort at 60.8F,giving an OG of 1.050 @ 5:54pm when I pitched the swollen packet directly. By 8:04pm,airlock centerpiece was pegged against the cap. 5/27 7:39am,it started bubbling @ 64.4F.
On the dark hybrid lager,I pitched the vial of WL029 yeast @OG 1.046 wort on 2/16 at 53.6F. Got the darn wort chiled too much being busy with something else. on 2/17 at 1:38pm,temp up to 64.4F & started bubbling. I think it would've started bubbling/visibly fermenting in the same amount of time as the starter one had I stayed right there & got the chill temp right. The temps stayed in the 65-69F range of the yeast at that time of year.
The beers came out quite lager like & balance was good. The light one tasted like a Euro/German lager,& the dark one had a slight dark toasty flavor balanced by the hops. The German yeast seems to promote balance of flavors.
Anyway,my findings indicate that the gravity of the beer does indeed govern the speed at which the reproductive phase goes into visible fermentation. But even that can vary a bit. But it also tells me that if yeast is properly stored,you're not loosing that many cells. Experiences are like fermenting beers,each one is different by some degree & won't always coincide.
*I see you posted at Porche time,904! I loved the 904 carrera. Apparently Dino Ferrari did too...
 
uniondr, you seem to be missing our point. Straight pitching liquid yeast will ferment your beer. It might also start showing signs of fermentation very quickly and you might not detect any off flavors. These quick signs of fermentation are evident during the reproductive phase when off flavors can be produced. By pitching a proper starter you do not have a reproductive phase during the fermentation which lessens chances of off flavors, will usually get the active part of the fermentation started sooner and decreasing the time and infection could get started.

So I will again say the better advise is to make starters.

I am not saying that you must, just that it is a better practice. If you are satisfied with your processes, by all means, continue.
 
Well,since I'm a stickler for sanitation,I'm not worried about infections. Never had one. I'm not missing anyone's points. Just realize that I also have points to concider. Brewing is not that cut & dried. I got the same argument over making starters for dry yeast. But that was with old packets. They worked out quite well with 2 year old yeast packets. They said then that you can't do that,it's not right,it won't work out well. They did,& some ideals are changing. But,as we always say,do what works well for you. That's about all I got on this one till the future reveals more. :mug:
Not trying to make enemies or be a ****** either,nor am I trolling. Although a troll might think otherwise. It just gets hard sometimes when you tell the truth of a situation,& get ranked for it. oh well...:drunk:
 
Hey guys, thanks for the info. Just to let ya know that my airlock was bubbling by Monday afternoon. Like I said, this is my sixth batch of beer and before this one, I never made a starter and it was bubbling or at the very least had some krausen no more than a day after brewing, whether I used dry or liquid yeast. I figured if I didn't see some sort of sign of a healthy fermentation, I would go back to the LHBS and get another package of yeast.
 
Good to hear. Each fermentation being different,it happens sometimes. I've had runs of great ferments,then something little happens,& it has to be figured out. That's life when brewing. Shiz happens.:tank:
 
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