What is Extract Funk?

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

lordotheporto

Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2011
Messages
15
Reaction score
0
Location
Orange
I've read folks write about LME having a strange "funk" to it. Sometimes its described simply as having a "bad" flavor.

I'm not sure how to interpret these descriptions. Would someone care to elaborate on this? Can you provide a more detailed or helpful description? Does this flavor affect only certain kinds of LME (e.g., dark vs. amber vs. light)? Why does this problem not tend to be related to DME? Is it a factor of age, or something else? What is the best way to mitigate the problem (yes, yes, I know you will say All-Grain brewing, but anything apart from that)?

Thanks!
 
its definitely there with LME and not with DME.
Even fresh with fast shipping I don't think its shelf life is long enough. DME has a long shelf life.

I got a deal on some a few months ago made a batch and that flavor was there. enough so that it reminded me of why I hadn't used it in years.
LME is just a bad product.
 
I have found that late additions virtually eliminate LME funk, it is about how processed it is and boiling it for an additional hour just exacerbates the issue
 
"Extract Twang," as many people call the funk you're talking about, can be caused by several factors.

One cause is if you use old extract. DME tends to have a long shelf life, so this is more common with LME. Make sure the extract you're buying is fresh. If you can't get fresh LME, then stick with DME.

Another cause is scorched wort. Two mistakes many beginning brewers make when starting out with partial boils is: 1) they add all of their extract at the beginning of the boil, which in a partial boil is highly concentrated and susceptible to caramelization. Using late extract additions helps get rid of this issue. And 2) When adding extract to the boil (at any time), they do not remove the pot from the burner. This results in caramelization and scorching of the wort.
Both will cause some undesirable flavors.

Yet another cause is when brewers do not have or use a method to rapidly cool their wort post-boil. My beers improved dramatically once I figured this out.

Finally, many extract recipes (and especially ones designed by newbies) are overloaded with crystal malt. I've seen tons of recipes that call for 1.5 or more pounds of crystal malt, along with their extract. In light extract it's bad enough, because it already has carapils in it. In amber or dark extracts, it's borderline criminal. Then when the beer is cloyingly sweet, they blame the extract. Extract manufacturers list what's in their products. Brewers need to be mindful of that when designing a recipe.

Bear in mind, what I've listed above isn't an indictment of LME. When used properly I think LME produces better tasting beer than DME. It just needs to be handled correctly.
 
Great answers, folks! But still no one has answered the question of how to identify or describe this "twang" or "funk?" What does it taste like? How can I recognize it on my next batch?

I'm wondering if this is somewhat akin to the issue of "cork taint" in wine. I have drunk wine with a group of connoisseurs and on multiple occasions they would discuss whether the wine was "corked." Despite their best efforts at describing it to me, I was never able to identify it and say: "Ahh, yes, I see what you mean. You're right. It's corked." :eek:
 
I don't know what it is...but I suspect some of the "extract twang" reports are actually off fermentation temperature flavors. Not all but some...
 
I don't know what it is...but I suspect some of the "extract twang" reports are actually off fermentation temperature flavors. Not all but some...

I agree. More often than not, inexperience is the cause of extract twang. Many extract brewers are newbies, and make mistakes. When/if they move to all-grain, they've invested in better equipment while also learning more about the entire brewing/fermentation process. When their all-grain beers come out improved, they blame their flawed extract beers on the extract itself.

It's a shame really. Because while mashing is fun, I find extract brewing to be an enjoyable and rewarding method of brewing. Some of my favorite recipes are extract recipes.
 
To answer your question, the twang is sort of a bittersweet off flavor, that to me leaves a lasting flavor or mouth feel that is unpleasant. I believe it occurs in LME due to the water present, which probably oxidizes the sugars, making them indigestable to yeast. If you are using LME, make sure to do a full hour boil and remove from the heat source while adding to reduce carmelization.

I have noticed an improvemwnt in my beers since I switched to DME, but I also at the same time improved my fermentation temp with a swamp cooler. I made the switch 3 brews ago and since then they have really been amazing. Im not 100% sure if the DME is superior, but I wont be going back to LME...

Sorry for the double post, my phone likes to send messages before Im finished...
 
...If you are using LME, make sure to do a full hour boil and remove from the heat source while adding to reduce carmelization...

Thanks for the description. Your statement quoted above raises more questions in my mind:

First, you say to make sure to do a full hour boil with the LME, but I thought a common technique to reduce the funk is to do late extract additions?

Second, I have heard of some folks who "boil the snot" out of some extract based wort (prior to hop addition) in order to increase caramelization, to produce a more caramel and sweeter flavor by converting sugars into a form that the yeast cannot digest. By doing this, are these people actually increasing the twang?
 
lordotheporto said:
Thanks for the description. Your statement quoted above raises more questions in my mind:

First, you say to make sure to do a full hour boil with the LME, but I thought a common technique to reduce the funk is to do late extract additions?

Second, I have heard of some folks who "boil the snot" out of some extract based wort (prior to hop addition) in order to increase caramelization, to produce a more caramel and sweeter flavor by converting sugars into a form that the yeast cannot digest. By doing this, are these people actually increasing the twang?

Ok there are a few misunderstandings here. Theres a difference between oxidized malt (funk) and malt that has undergone a reaction ( burnt extract or ectract that has undergone Maillard Reaction.) I found this article and it may answer your questions on this.

http://beersmith.com/blog/2008/02/20/better-beer-with-late-malt-extract-additions/

I add my malt twice once at start of boil, another at 30 mins.

The basics are this: use the freshest extract possible, full hour boil, proper sanitation, proper ferementation temps.
 
Update: my local brew store didnt have dry extract, only liquid, which i bought begrudgingly. My beer now has " the funk". I have not had this issue with any brew that I made with dry extract. My solution: never uaing liquid extract again, ever! dry only from here on out...
 
Update: my local brew store didnt have dry extract, only liquid, which i bought begrudgingly. My beer now has " the funk". I have not had this issue with any brew that I made with dry extract. My solution: never uaing liquid extract again, ever! dry only from here on out...

Might be a good example of why not to do a full LME boil.
 
Ok well i let it sit in the keg for a week and the flavor definitely improved, but the aftertaste is not as clean or crisp as Id like. I notoced that issue was resolved with DME. I made another batch with DME this weekend. Essentially the same recipe (just with different bittering hops). I'll see if the aftertaste improves with this one...
 
Mailard reactions happen when too much LME is used at the begining of the boil & it caramelizes as stateted. That bittersweet off funky flavor can be eliminated. I use all LME at flame out. I use half a 3lb bag of plain (un-hopped) DME in the boil for hop additions (2.5-3G). At flame out,add remaining DME & all LME till dissolved completely. Cover & steep 15 minutes. Since the temp is still 180F+,it's more than hot enough to pasteurize,which happens around 162F.
Twang gone,cleaner flavors can be had,along with lighter color. But you still have to maintane good temps for the yeast used. That'll eliminate off flavors that can complicate these things.
 
I always thought of the twang as a semi metallic bite.. kinda like putting a penny in your mouth for just a second.. that's how I perceive it as but it's different with everyone :mug:
 
Late additions have been proven by many on here to solve this problem. so it's def not a bad thing with my partial boils. Can't imagine it'd be bad on a full boil. It does give more hop utilization ime. But a full LME boil being a must isn't true. The less you boil all the KME,the better. Hence late additions. I use plain DME in the boil,LME at flame out to solve it.
 
Im just not sure that addition timing is the main culprit, unless you mean to say the addition timing is different for LME and DME. I always add half extract at start of boil, the rest with 30min remaining. I do this with both liquid and dry malt extract. I use the same brewing and fermentation techniques with both, but have only had issues with the liquid. To me this a fairly scientific approach since I am keeping 95-98 percent of my variables constant and only changing the type of extract. I would say say my DME brews have been great, comparable with commercial craft beers, however the LME batches for the most part taste stale, lacking a bright taste, and are even mildly astringent. The flavor definitely improves with age as my last batch did, but still...

I have heard that liquid extract can go stale relatively quickly, and i would imagine that this has to do with the water present in the LME oxidizes the sugars in the malt.
 
I don't think even adding the remaing LME at 30 minutes is a good thing. I add all the LME at flame out. With half a 3lb bag of plain DME in the 2.5-3 gallon boil. Steeping it at flame out is fine,since the wort is still about 180F when you add the late additions. Steep 15 minutes covered pasteurizes it,since this happens at about 162F.
 
I just opened up a bottle of a belgium dubbel I brewed using 7lbs of lme, its been in the bottle for 12 days and the flavor of the beer is very close to the smell of the lme coming out of the pouch , I bought it from Morebeer and they say all their LME is fresh.

Will this taste back off the longer it stays in the bottle? the beer finished up at 6.9%
 
unionrdr said:
I don't think even adding the remaing LME at 30 minutes is a good thing. I add all the LME at flame out. With half a 3lb bag of plain DME in the 2.5-3 gallon boil. Steeping it at flame out is fine,since the wort is still about 180F when you add the late additions. Steep 15 minutes covered pasteurizes it,since this happens at about 162F.

At flame out? Ive never heard of anyone doing this. If it works for you, more power to ya, haha, I guess Im just traditional and add half at start of boil and the rest at 30 min. Its given me good results, so Im going to keep doing it.
 
however the LME batches for the most part taste stale, lacking a bright taste, and are even mildly astringent.

At flame out? Ive never heard of anyone doing this. If it works for you, more power to ya, haha, I guess Im just traditional and add half at start of boil and the rest at 30 min. Its given me good results, so Im going to keep doing it.

If using LME, adding at flame out works. Sounds like you haven't had good luck with LME so if you need to use it again maybe the "tradional" way isn't the best option. Even boiling LME for 30 minutes can be too long.
 
AMonkey said:
If using LME, adding at flame out works. Sounds like you haven't had good luck with LME so if you need to use it again maybe the "tradional" way isn't the best option. Even boiling LME for 30 minutes can be too long.

That is a good point, I hadnt considered that. I had planned to just stick w DME, however if LME is the only option I try that out.

What exactly happens to the LmE when boilied for that long that would cause the off flavors? And how is this different than DME?
 
That I don't really know. Some people say it is because it caramelizes, LME can scorch on the bottom of the pan easier, it doesn't stay as fresh. Not sure if it is becasue of all of these or one or another.

But I think you want some in there for the whole boil. So if using all LME most say to add around 1/3 for the full boil and rest at flame out.
 
It's the mailard reactions with the LME that causes the twang & darkening. Even at 30 minutes. That's why I use DME in the boil & LME at flame out. The wort is still plenty hot enough to pasteurize it at that point. No twang & color is lighter.
 
I'm and extract brewer and I've never had an issue with a "twang" or off flavor. I do a full wort boil and I've always done a combination of LME and DME in my brews. My LHBS sells LME in 6lb containers and most recipes call for more than that so I adjust to use DME for the rest. Usually it comes out to 6lbs lme and 1-2 lbs dme. I have an 8 gallon kettle and steep my grains, bring to a boil, add all the lme then I add the DME at 20 minutes. My homebrew club has a few bjcp judges and only one of my beers they could tell was an extract brew and that was a blonde ale.

Seems like I'm the exception rather than the rule, judging from everyone's posts. I bought my equipment know I'd be going all grain in about a year so I do full boils, have a wort chiller, and I'm super anal about fermentation temps.
 
I do experience this strange after taste —*as others have commented, something somewhat sweet but not desirable. The one area of my process that seems to be less than optimal is that I do partial boils. I boil down to about 3 or 3.5 gallons, and then top off.

My next purchase will be a 40 qt pot, and I will do a full boil with maybe late extract addition.
 
If you can get superfresh LME (say from morebeer), it is really nice stuff and can make excellent beer. I have never messed with the can stuff myself, so I can't say. If you are in doubt, go with DME.
 
Im about to take on my first brew day this weekend. I bought a black ipa kit from the LHBS. It only has LME, steeping grains, and hops. Is steeping the grains good enough to allow for good hop utilization or do i need some DME if I am adding LME at flame out?
 
I think of it as a little bit hose water and a little bit metallic. Took me a few batches to get that you can eliminate most of that twang by taking the pot off the burner and adding 3/4 of the LME at flameout.
 
Im about to take on my first brew day this weekend. I bought a black ipa kit from the LHBS. It only has LME, steeping grains, and hops. Is steeping the grains good enough to allow for good hop utilization or do i need some DME if I am adding LME at flame out?

Add the plain DME to the boil,LME at flame out & steep covered for 15 minutes.
 
Back
Top