Starting Keg Conversions for a 3 Vessel E-Herms System

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Hoppopotomus

Cedar Hollow Brewing
Joined
Nov 18, 2010
Messages
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Location
Ortonville/Oxford
I have had three 15.5 gallon kegs sitting in my basement for the past 10 months, so it's about time to start converting these things. A patient of mine found these kegs for me, as his nephew works for a local distribution company and was able to get his hands on a few "retired kegs". Got all 3 for $90, which I thought was reasonable. They are Labatt Blue kegs and are a in great shape, no dents or deep scratches. As you can see, I started stripping the paint and polishing one of them when I got them, but I put it on hold to devote spare time to my basment finishing project and my keezer build. I'm adding a 4th tap to my keezer this coming weekend and that project is done! I'm also near completion on my basement, so just need to finish up odds and ends, then have carpeting put down.

I plan on devoting some time this fall/winter on getting my basement brewery going on the unfinished side of my basement. I live in Michigan, so brewing outside sucks in the winter. I have decided to go all electric and am leaning towards a 3 vessel electric HERMS system, based on the electricbrewery. I will start seperate threads for the e-system build and my basement brewery build in the future, but this thread will be devoted to the keggle conversions. Here are a few pics of the kegs and the jig that I made to cut the tops off with my angle grinder. A big thanks to Passedpawn for the jig idea....it worked like a charm! :mug:

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Here are a few pics of the jig in place and the tops after being cut out. The first thing I did was use a screw driver to depress the ball valve and release the pressure. I then used the screw driver and a hammer to tap the steel o-ring that secures the dip tubes in place to it's unlocked position. Pretty easy process. The stale remaining beer inside was horrible smelling, so I took them out to my driveway and used my pressure washer to clean them up before cutting.

The jig just drops down into the ball valve opening and when all was said and done, it cut a near perfect opening that is 12" in diameter on all three. It took 1 steel cutting disk for each keg, but it only took about 5 min. for each top. Just make sure that you don't force the blade and just keep working the grinder around in a circle until it gradually cuts through. I forgot to add water during the first cut, so it left some slag in the bottom that needs to be scrubbed out. I put about 1 gallon of water in the other two and there was no issues, they stayed clean as can be.

I then used an 80 grit flap disk on the grinder and cleaned the edges of the opening and the cut out lids to knock off all of the sharp burrs and smooth the edges. I then used some 150 grit sandpaper and continued to soften the edges, so there is absolutely no risk of cut arms. I am considering making homemade false bottoms out of the top, but I don't have a drill press, so drilling all of the holes would be a PITA! Here are a few more pics after the first 2.....the 3rd one turned out equally as well..... :mug: More to come.....now onto polishing and fittings.

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I'm going with two 5500w 240 VAC elements similar to the ones used on the electricbrewery.com, one for the HLT and one for the BK. I'll search around to see if I can get them at a more reasonable price than listed on their site. Thankfully, I have a father in law and a neighbor that are electricians, another neighbor that is an electrical engineer specializing in systems operation, another neighbor that is an IT guy, and another neighbor that is a mechanical engineer. This means that I give the neighbors free beer at all of our gatherings and they in exchange have agreed to help me with my brewing projects. :D It's nice, because I can purchase items such as the systems panel, heating elements, etc. unassembled for much cheaper and these guys can help me put it all together. I didn't need help with my keezer build, because it was pretty straight forward, but with this electronic brewing system....I'm in way over my head, so it's nice to have the support. :mug:
 
Welcome to the Electric crew. I love my electric 3 keg beer machine. I ended up using a 2500W in my HLT and a 4500W RIPP element in the BK. If there's anything I can share with you please don't hesitate to ask.

Here's a pic of the rig with the DIY ventilation set up
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I'm sure I will have tons of questions, so thanks for the offer! Here's a couple to start with:

How long does it take for the 2500w element to get the strike water up to temp?

How long does it take the 4500w element to get the wort to a rolling boil?

I'm just getting started with this project and will start ordering the fittings this week for the keggles. I'm adding a 4th tap to my keezer this weekend, as my order from kegconnection was slightly delayed until Friday. I am also trying to knock out the rest of the drop ceiling in my basement this weekend as well. Those are my last two projects to complete, then it's on to this project and a couple more brewing related builds for the winter. :mug:

PS....very nice build you have there!
 
I was incorrect in my hlt element. It's less than 4500 but greater than 2500 on 240. My HLT is also my sparge water so I heat about 13 gallons to strike temp. It takes about an hour or so. I use a timer to turn in the rig. The 240v passes through a contactor that is on 110. The 110 feeds the contactor, pumps, and PID's. Therefore until the tmer comes on, the rig is powerless.

Boil takes about 20 minutes from sparge completion and the temp ramp is from 170-207 to boil.

I definitely suggest having your couplers and nuts welded to your keggles and forego weld less. If you are brewing in a basement definitely think about ventilation. I boil off about 3 gallons.
 
Thanks for the info. I was planning on going with all weldless fittings like those used in the Blichmann kettels, but also have someone that could weld in fittings if needed. I'm still weighing the pro's and con's of each.

I have several hundred square feet on the unfinished side of my basement that I plan on turning into my brewing quarters. I plan on finding an oversized stainless hood vent and the proper exhaust fan and venting out of the back of the house. I also plan on installing a commericial deep well, 2 or 3 bay stainless steel sink with drip pans and having a stainless work table as an island in the middle of the room. Along with the electric brewing system, I plan on building a fermentation chamber and a motorized grain mill built into a cabinet. I already have a cold storage wine cellar/beer storage cellar that is in the corner of the same room. As soon as I can move all of the furniture out of the storage side of my basement once carpeting is installed, it wil free up that space and I can start laying it out. In the meantime, I wanted to get a jump on my keggle conversions asap. Thanks again for the info! :mug:
 
Great idea....and should save a ton of $$$ for venting! :tank:

I did some cleaning up of the kegs for an hour or so today to get the majority of the factory paint off of the kegs, all of the adhesive from the stickers, and a rough start to the polishing process. Does anyone know what I could use to get the paint out of the middle seam of the kegs where Labatts paints their blue stripes on. I got most of it off, but there is a fine seam that I can't get it out of. Any suggestions would be great! Here are a few pics. If you look close you can see the blue seams on them.

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have you tried paint stripper?

what about clay bar? like what you would use to detail a car. if it's not clear coated then the clay bar might get it off, but paint stripper would be easier
 
No but I'll give it a shot. I'll stop by HD tomorrow after work to get some. I had a bottle of Goof Off and tried that. It took the adhesives off from the stickers on the kegs like a dream, but didn't do anything to the paint. The bottle said that it works on latex paint only. Any other suggestions would be great as well. :mug:
 
gell paint remover. you won't have to worry about if running off before it does its job. you will have to work in shifts because its a round surface. id lay it on its side, put some on the paint, wait, remove, roll, repeat!

Lowes carries a few brands.
 
Most "aircraft" type aerosols will take the paint off of a keg. Spray it on, let it work for about 5 to 8 minutes. You will see the paint bubble off. Then wipe it off with a scotchbrite pad.
 
It's been a while since I last posted. I'm juggling too many projects at once, so little progress on the e-kettles. I have my 5500w 240v heating elements on order and continue to compile my list of stainless fitttings, parts, ball valves, etc. I'm building basically the same system as Kal designed, but refuse to pay $375 for the Blichmann Kettles. A local deli down the road from my office went out of business and they are liquidating their equipment. I was able to pick up a couple of stainless steel tables for cheap. They need some cleaning and polishing, but they will do the trick. One is a 48"x30" all stainless with a shelf. The other is a 60"x30" heavy duty stainless table with aluminum legs and undershelf. The bigger of the two will be what I set the kettles on and the smaller will be a work island in my brewery. Here are a few pics of the tables.

I don't care for the aluminum legs and shelf on the bigger table, but it's sturdy as hell, so I can't complain for the price. They should clean up nice, but I may use some kind of metallic spray paint on the aluminum base of the one. Any suggestions?

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Here are a couple of pics. with the kettles on the bigger table. I can easily cut the legs down on the table to lower the level of the kettles. It has cross supports that make it very sturdy. I'm a big guy and I can sit in the table in the middle and it doesn't even bow. Should be plenty strong for a good brewing table base. I could add another support in the middle with an aluminum fence post, but I don't think it will be necessary.

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I wouldn't paint the aluminum, I'd buff it up with an angle grinder and a medium/fine pad to give it a nice matte finish and call it done. Paint is a PITA that will end up looking like crap once you start dinging it up...

Cheers!
 
Thanks for the advice. The tables have some very fine scratches that I plan on buffing/polishing out when I put the final polishing onto the kegs. I will do a fine sanding on the aluminum and maybe a #5 polish and let it be. I don't really want to paint the base, but it depends on how it looks when I'm done cleaning it up and polishing.

Over the next week, I am going to start gathering my stainless steel nuts, washers, fittings, ball locks, disconnects, etc. for my kettle conversions. I recently learned about a business that is 2 miles from my house called Quality Fasteners. I drive by the business everyday, but didn't realize that they sell most of the stainless parts that I need for my keggle conversions. My neighbor owns a solar power installation company and he said that he purchases stainless parts at a fraction of the cost of McMaster/Carr, Granger, etc. I'm stopping in there on Tuesday with a parts list to see what they can help me with, because paying $3 to $6 each for ss washers, lock nuts, bushings, etc. through Morebeer.com or brewhardware.com isn't gonna happen. My neighbor claims that he gets these items for 1/3 or the price of other sites. If it pans out for me, I will let them know at this business that they could do a hell of a business with home brewers if they keep their costs down and market it effectively. :mug:
 
Well it didn't work out with the company by my house. Not only was their quote high, it wasn't even in the same frickin' ballpark.......or universe for that matter. Their quote had several fittings at $30 each, for the same fitting at BargainFittings.com for $4. Not to mention their quote for the 50' coil of 1/2" SS Tubing for $449....WTF! :drunk: I have been driving myself crazy working off of Kal's list for the electricbrewery.com and cross comparing on 5 to 6 different websites like McMaster/Carr, Grainer, MoreBeer, BargainFittings, Norcal, etc. In my experience so far, I am quickly discovering that you really cannot beat BargainFittings.com for their weldless kits. Bobby at BrewHardware.com has very good pricing as well (and his site glasses are superior IMHO) and he has done an awful lot for HBT and the homebrewing community as a whole. I've tried pricing out each piece of the kit through various vendors and cannot beat the $11 to $12 for the kits....there's just no comparison trying to piece it together yourself through MMC or Grainger.

Here's what I'm learning in this process so far. Buying the bulkhead kits is the way to go. I plan on using a combination of BargainFittings.com and BrewHardware.com for everything, with the exception of some of the interior components. Although it is certainly more sexy to go with all 100% stainless steel parts, I'm having a hard time spending $19 for one SS 1/2" MPT x 1/2" compression fitting. I also am quickly realizing that things can be done in a much more cost effective manner by using some copper fittings. Although money isn't a major issue, the frugal side of me is having a hard time paying gross amounts of money for tiny little fittings. Not to mention a 50' coil of 1/2" stainless steel tubing, which is expensive as hell. I have two copper immersion chillers, one 50' and one 75'. Guess what the 50' is going to be used for.... you guessed it, the HERMS coil. I would much rather use some copper components for the guts of the build and put the extra several hundred dollars in savings towards Kal's control panel. :mug:
 
I may have kinked my SS coil too much to be used for my HERMS coil, so the immersion chiller is a better idea. I might have to go and get a copper coil to replace mine, but my system isn't running yet so I don't know...

I found my compression fittings from this guy on ebay for a little more than $10 a piece: http://myworld.ebay.com/itbsllc/

I found my ball valves from duda diesel for about $10 each as well.

See if maybe those can help you out and good luck with your build!
 
Sweet! Thanks, I'll look into it. I would love to go with all stainless components, but I already have some things laying around. I have a box of copper fittings from building my house and the extra immersion chiller. I also have a decent size length of 1/2" rigid copper tubing, so I already have the fixin's for dip tubes, recirculation tubes, and of course the HERMS coil. If I can get the stainless for a reasonable price, then I'll go for it, but if not.... copper it is! Thanks for the leads.....much appreciated. :mug:
 
Just ordered 9 three piece ball valves (stainless steel) from Austin Homebrewing Supplies for $14.99 each.....by far the best price I have found so far. I was just leaning towards purchasing standard 2 piece ss ball valves for $12, but for $3 more, what the hell! I'm still putting together the rest of my parts list, so I'm still researching, but joenads' leads should be helpful.

Slowly but surely, I'll get this system underway very soon. :mug:
 
I hear ya, slow for sure on my end. I got a 4 month old son who likes me to make his bottles before mine...
 
Selfish little brat.......;) Kidding. I totally understand, I have a wife, a 9 y/o, a 7 y/o, 2 businesses, a basement finishing project 90% complete, 15 other projects going on, and not enough hours in the day. :confused: Thankfully winter is approaching, so I will no longer be spending 6 hours per week with yard work, which should free up some time for working on the brewery.
 
Sorry guys....hit "submit reply" accidentally. I received my shipment from Austin Homebrew Supply for my 9 three piece SS ball lack valves. They were $14.99, which is the best price I could find anywhere. One small issue with one of them though.....the rubber handle on one looks like it was melted and you can't read 1/2 of the lettering. Doesn't affect it's funtion, so I'm not sure if I'll bring it to their attention or not. As you can also see, I have the majority of the parts for my 5500w heating elements. Obviously by the materials, it should be pretty obvious that I'm following Kal's design. I'm placing my order with bargainfittings.com for my SS weldless fittings, bulkheads, etc. However, I refuse to pay $20 each for ss compression fittings, so I'm going with brass. Before anyone crucifies me for this, I have read all of the threads about lead content and feel that the content is so miniscule that there is minimal risk. I plan to do the vinegar/hydrogen peroxide bath to remove any residual surface lead and I'm good about maintaining my brewing equipment well, so I'll keep a close eye out for any tarnishing or corrosion. I just have a hard time paying $20 for a small SS fitting when I can get a brass one for $3. I can't believe that I can purchase 3 three piece 316 ss ball valves for the price of two little fittings. As you can also see by the pics, I'm making my own dip tubes out of copper. I'm also using my old copper immersion chiller for the HERMS coil. Everything else, however will be all stainless steel components. I'm just frugal when it comes to some things, but knowing me, I'll gradually swap out components for an eventual all ss conversion.

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Subscribed! I feel the same way about paying outrageous prices for certain things! I was thinking 3 bayou classic stock pots (blichmann way to pricey), copper dip tubes/HERMS coil, and spend the extra on the spa panel/control panel, as thats the most important piece of the puzzle! Be watching this thread, so i can see how it works out for you!
 
Can you explain this for me how to do it and what mixture should i use.
Dean

According to John Palmer:
"A solution of two parts white vinegar to one part hydrogen peroxide (common 3% solution) will remove tarnish and surface lead from brass parts when they are soaked for 5 minutes or less at room temperature. The brass will turn a buttery yellow color as it is cleaned. If the solution starts to turn green and the brass darkens, then the parts have been soaking too long and the copper in the brass is beginning to dissolve, exposing more lead. The solution has become contaminated and the part should be re-cleaned in a fresh solution."

Good luck! :mug:
 
Subscribed! I feel the same way about paying outrageous prices for certain things! I was thinking 3 bayou classic stock pots (blichmann way to pricey), copper dip tubes/HERMS coil, and spend the extra on the spa panel/control panel, as thats the most important piece of the puzzle! Be watching this thread, so i can see how it works out for you!

Agreed....I don't think that 3 little brass fittings in my entire system is a big deal. Many would argue that someone who is spending this kind of money on brewing equipment, should just bite the bullet and go all stainless, but if I can save 85% in a couple cases on brass as opposed to SS, then it makes sense to me. I can devote more funds towards the controls. :mug:
 
Welcome to the Electric crew. I love my electric 3 keg beer machine. I ended up using a 2500W in my HLT and a 4500W RIPP element in the BK. If there's anything I can share with you please don't hesitate to ask.

Here's a pic of the rig with the DIY ventilation set up
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I'm already aware this is a stupid question, because I know what it is just not what it's called. But what's the official name of the insulation around your keggles called? What temperature is it rated for? I'm looking to build a system similar to yours and wanted this insulation for at least my HLT and MLT.
 
I'm already aware this is a stupid question, because I know what it is just not what it's called. But what's the official name of the insulation around your keggles called? What temperature is it rated for? I'm looking to build a system similar to yours and wanted this insulation for at least my HLT and MLT.

Is it also fireproof?
I would like mine insulated but I have a banjo burner under the kettle.
 
Finally got my first keg the other day. Working nights this week, so I don't think I am gonna get much keggle building done. Will have to wait for this next weekend before I can start getting closer to this kind of dream build!
 
I'm resurrecting this old thread and apologize fo such a long delay in the process. I have been elbows deep in so many other builds (theads in my siganature line) that I still haven't gotten to my keggle conversions........ UNTIL NOW! :rockin:

OK, so here's the deal. I am still going with a 3 vessel HERMs system and am awaiting my final order with Bobby for my remaining pieces and parts. Hopefully sometime soon I will have all of the remaining fittings to proceed with the keggle conversions including all of the bulkheads, site glasses, chugger pumps, etc. I already had the HERMs coil, 3 piece ball valves, 5500w heating elements, etc. So I am still going to complete all of the keggle conversions per Kal on www.theelectricbrewery.com. As soon as I receive my order I will have everything needed.....except for the elusive control panel, which I still haven't talked my wife into letting me purchase. I have also been exploring other options as well, such as the BCS control system, Brewtroller, etc. Regarless of what controls I ultimately end up with, I am still doing a HERMs system and set up like Kal's.

I started punching some holes in my kegs this evening. Since I am using sanke kegs (not Blichmann's like Kal used) I followed the advice of Bobby at Brew Hardware and positioned my main drainage ports 1" on center above the lowest skirt weld on the kegs. I punched the 3 holes, one in each vessel with a 7/8" Greenlee punch with no problems.....nice clean holes. My wife was nice enough to buy me a PICO false bottom for my MLT and the port is comfortably below the false bottom as recommended by the manufacturer. I will next drill the holes (I don't have a 9/16" punch) for the site glasses at 5/8" to 1" above the lowest skirt weld as well (as recommended by Bobby), so no problem there. My biggest concern at this point is with the height in which I should place the holes for the 5500w heating elements and the HERM's coil.

I plan on doing 10 gallon batches for the most part, but who knows, maybe I would like to do the occassional 5 gallon test batch. I want the elements to be placed at a height that will allow for both. I want to make sure that the element doesn't interfere with the drainage port/dip tube or the HERMs coil in the HLT. I also need to make sure that the element in BK doesn't interfere with the drainage port/dip tube/hop filter, but still allows for an occassional 5 gallon batch. The problem that I am running into is that I'm trying to merge both Bobby and Kal's recommendations into an electric HERMs set up using keggles. I really don't want to screw this up, because I have already spent hours cleaning up and polishing keggles and really don't want to start over due to a bone headed error.

If you have ever created a Kal clone with keggles, please, please, please give me some advice on proper height placements for these components. Thank you in advance for you help! :mug:

Since I have resurrected this old thread, I'll probably chronicle the keg conversions here, but I have another thread covering the actual brewery build here.
 
Still awaiting my order from Bobby, but it has shipped, so any day now! Here are a few pics. I punched the holes for the main weldless bulkhead drainage ports with the Greenlee.....worked great. I'll punch the holes for the HERMs coil and recirculation ports today with the same 7/8" punch. I'll wait for my step bits from Bobby to drill out the site glass ports and the larger holes for the heating elements. I also posted a pic of the new PICO false bottom and stand (I'm leaving the protective film on it for now) that my wife bought me for Christmas. It was between this one and the JayBird.....guess she made the decision for me. :D I also decided that my cannibalized wort chiller would not make a suitable HERMs coil. It is only 25 ft. long and 3/8" od copper. I purchased a 50 ft. long coil of 1/2" od copper and formed the coil this weekend. I used an old mortar bucket, which yielded a perfect 11 1/2" od coil and since my R/O for the lid is 12" it worked out perfectly. I'm really hoping for the remaining parts to get here soon.

P.S. I'm doing a lot more research on the BCS 640 control module compared to a full blown Kal clone panel. I asked this in my last post, but if anyone has used the BCS on a Kal clone HERMs system....please let me know.

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