Submersible pump question.

So I haven't even brewed my first brew yet.... if it doesn't rain tomorrow my plan is to do my first brew tomorrow.

Well today i was explaining to my girlfriend the brew process.... and she basically told me I cant waste 15 to 20 minutes of water from the garden hose ever time I want to brew. She is really hippie and recycle friendly, she takes 5 min max shower just not to waste water, so I sort of expected this.

So I told her I would get a pump to recycle most of the water with my 50' 3/8" immersion chiller that has water hose connections on my batch after this one.

Would these pumps work?
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000X05G1A/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000X07GQS/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
Are they over kill?

I figured id drop the temp at first let some water run off till temp drops. Then rerun hose with some ice or reusable ice packs through a big plastic storage tub to not waste anymore water. I think id make her happy with that plus drop temp quick since water out the tap here in South Carolina in july is rather hot anyway.

Those will totally work. I used to use a fish tank powerhead to recirculate cold water. Are you doing partial boils? If so get your top up water as cold as you can and use that to get the temps down. Then your not wasting water at all. If you are doing a full boil then your on the right track. Saving water is easy to do as well if you use another kettle and capture all the waste water to be used as clean up water or for your next batch.

Cheers
Jay

The problem with recirculating the water is that the water coming out of the chiller has absorbed all the energy and is really hot. You will need A LOT of ice if you plan on recirculating this way. Since ice takes a lot of energy to make, you will not be doing Mother Earth any favors with this recirculating method. The best thing to do is run the garden hose like normal, and collect all the water to reuse as cleaning water or to water plants with. If you want to use some ice, look into a prechiller, especially since I imagine your groundwater temps are high anyway. Or if you have some money to spare, buy a counterflow chiller since they are more efficient with water.

Jaybird- I am doing 5 gallon batches in a 10 gallon stainless steel pot with extracts outside on propane, I assumed id start with 6 gallons and hopefully if the stars line up right after an hour boil end up with 5 gallons.

Thats a good idea about using as clean up water, ill need some water to rinse pot and clean up everything with, guess ill have to get a couple more 5 gallon buckets to save some water with. Thanks for the idea.

2thguy - I looked into plate chillers and counter flows at first but decided since I am a newbie I need to stick to something like immersion chillers since I have some experience at a friends house already with it. So kinda stuck with that option since ive already forked out the money for one. I am somewhat of a mother nature person but not the point were I cry over a little spilled water or some melted ice. I just gotta sell the girlfriend on whatever I come up with. I already tried to sell her on water for the plants.... that failed she didn't buy it. I am not sure if she would think deeply into the ice being not ecofriendly as letting the water run off or not. It might be bridge ill have to cross though.

I just measured my ground water temps out of my kitchen sink, I should have done that before at 330am in the morning the temp is 81 degree so I know at 2pm tomorrow my water temp will be like 90 degrees at least. Ugh that kinda through a wrench into my plan. So I need a pump or a prechiller anyway. I might have to put off my first brew day for another week.

I think a pump is my best option by letting the really hot water run off as I use hose to refill tub with pump, when the temp gets down to 110 or so drop in some ice and cut off off fresh water from house and put run off hose into the tub with pump so I create a cycle. At that point cross my fingers I can drop temp below 80 before ice melts completely. At least I save some water, rather than with the prechiller I think most of everything is run off with that method isnt it?

Thanks so far for the input, I am ready to get my first brew underway, I just want to do it right the first time and still somehow please the girlfriend.

This time of year in the south is difficult for chilling full-boil wort. I think your method will work well enough and should hopefully keep your girlfriend happy.

I use a similar technique but it does require a plate chiller. Given your gf's concerns, it might be worth the purchase! I whirlpool my wort for about 15 minutes post boil, then use the IC to get temps down to 120-150 or so. Capture that run-off water to use for cleaning. Then move the IC into a bucket of ice water w/your pump, and use that to run through the "Water In" side of the plate chiller. Move the IC around a bit as the water flows, so you get good circulation of the ice water around the copper. It takes me 1 10# bag of ice to get down to ale pitching temps. This should save you a lot of water.

I use a similar pump that I got w/ a sale coupon from Harbor Freight w/ my CFC.
I recirculate the return water to the bottom of a bucket w/ the pump in the center. On a 90+ degree day using gravity feed I get to 60-64 in under ten minutes. I usually use two ten pound bags OG ice.

Castlehollow - I really liked plate chillers, when i watched youtube video on them, but decided as a beginner the risk of infection wasnt worth it, nor did I understand how filtering out the hops and other gunk worked. I told myself once I get use to actual brewing id look more into plate chillers.

I like the idea of IC and pump in combo with a plate chiller.... if and when i do go that route that seems like the great idea to limit water wasted due to the speed you get your wort chilled.

Govner1 -Do you just start recirulating with ice? or do you let some of the really really hot water run off before recirulating? two 10 pounds bags of ice seems like a good bit, your just dropping pump and ice into a 5 gallon bucket? I am not use to terminology yet, whats OG ice?

Run tap water through your immersion chiller slowly while stirring the hell out your wort the whole time and collect the output water in some buckets. When the wort hits about 120F, stop the flow and switch over to pumping icewater. Again, keep stirring the wort.

The best way to get around water waste concerns is to not waste it. Use the hottest water (the first collection bucket) to wash your kettle after the brew. Use other hot water for washing the dishes or other uses that require hot water. Any water that ends up being cooler, use it to water plants or you can even use it to flush toilets over the next few days if you really want to hippie out.

I'd highly recommend getting a new girlfriend.

I put in water at ground temp about half way up the pump then put in my first bag of ice and start the pump. Then I open the valve on my BK to allow the hot wort to start flowing. You can control the temp of your wort into your fermented by adjusting the flow rate
Sorry for the typo it should have read two bags of ice. Not OG.
Two bags costs me a little more than $3.

Bobby_M's solution is very practical. And since you're going to be reusing the chill water one way or another it is never "wasted."

Anyone who has a pool can use that as chill water to get the wort down to pool temps.

As long as your ground water (or other natural chill water) is above pitching temperature, you will need some way to chill the wort below that, and using ice or iced water for the last step is one way many use.

If you want to save on using chill water or ice altogether, look into the no-chill method. A popular method in areas where water is scarce (e.g., Australia).

My 2 notes on saving the environment (and water).
1. Reusing or repurposing water is really helpful. You still have to clean your equipment as well as do dishes. And I'm guessing you 2 haven't abandoned flush toilets yet. I'm taking a very wild guess that we as end-consumers flush 95% of all water down the toilet, use 4.9% for other (washing and watering) purposes and only drink and cook with the remaining 0.1%.
2. As mentioned above, it's the total impact on the environment that determines how green your methods are. Like making 10lbs of ice may be harder on the environment than the 20-40 gallons of water that is being used twice.

IslandLizard said:

Bobby_M's solution is very practical. And since you're going to be reusing the chill water one way or another it is never "wasted."

Anyone who has a pool can use that as chill water to get the wort down to pool temps.

As long as your ground water (or other natural chill water) is above pitching temperature, you will need some way to chill the wort below that, and using ice or iced water for the last step is one way many use.

If you want to save on using chill water or ice altogether, look into the no-chill method. A popular method in areas where water is scarce (e.g., Australia).

My 2 notes on saving the environment (and water).
1. Reusing or repurposing water is really helpful. You still have to clean your equipment as well as do dishes. And I'm guessing you 2 haven't abandoned flush toilets yet. I'm taking a very wild guess that we as end-consumers flush 95% of all water down the toilet, use 4.9% for other (washing and watering) purposes and only drink and cook with the remaining 0.1%.
2. As mentioned above, it's the total impact on the environment that determines how green your methods are. Like making 10lbs of ice may be harder on the environment than the 20-40 gallons of water that is being used twice.

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Damn wish I had a pool.... never really thought of doing that. Thanks for that advice. Maybe one day.

Ya I have heard of the no chill method before and watched a youtube video on it. I wont mention that as an option to girlfriend yet, just due to it seems like its flaws are somewhat large. I think I may give it a try after i get a good many brews under my belt first.

I mentioned the toliet thing to her and she ended up looking at me like I was crazy, but I might do it a couple times just to show her I am trying for her.

I am positive I am going with the ice method and pump for now.... and just figure out a way to reuse water for now and do my best to limit how much I use. Once I get more experience Ill look into other options. I think she will understand I am doing what I want no matter what, but I least need to try to keep her happy somewhat. Plus it aint cool to waste resources, when you dont have to.

evrose said:

I'd highly recommend getting a new girlfriend.

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She is french, has a MBA, she is a gymnast (still goes to practice every Tuesday night), her father's side of the family are all doctors, she is a vegetarian ( I am one also), likes to clean up after me (calls it her duty), happily gave me the second bedroom for all my hobbys (IE Homebrewing) and oh did I say she has a thing for girls?

Dude to say the least.... when she says she wants me to try to not waste so much water. I try to figure out a way.

Back to topic.... Thanks for everyone's input I am going to try everyone's ideas next weekend and go ahead and order a pump tonight. I wasn't able to brew today due to rain, but starting count down for next weekend. Thanks again.

I had a epiphany tonight at work....

All that warm water! would be perfect for a bath. So its going to be a dog bath water. Totally sold it to GF, so after i get done with chilling the wort I am helping gives the dogs a bath it looks like. 2 birds one stone.... Chilled Wort and clean dogs.

Going to let the ice water I have left over eventually match the temp outside and use it for watering plants the next day.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is using the runoff water for doing laundry. Just pour it into the washer with a load and the tub won't have to fill as high from the washer since it is only looking for a water level.

Cadrian said:

Damn wish I had a pool.... never really thought of doing that. Thanks for that advice. Maybe one day.

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I use pool water. Works really well year-round. In the summer, because the pool water is warm, I can't cool it far enough, but I get it as low as I can then drop the carboys into the chest freezer and in a few hours it's down to pitching temperature.

Cadrian said:

She is french, has a MBA, she is a gymnast (still goes to practice every Tuesday night), her father's side of the family are all doctors, she is a vegetarian ( I am one also), likes to clean up after me (calls it her duty), happily gave me the second bedroom for all my hobbys (IE Homebrewing) and oh did I say she has a thing for girls?

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I just had an epiphany too....I need a girlfriend like that!

passedpawn said:

I use pool water. Works really well year-round. In the summer, because the pool water is warm, I can't cool it far enough, but I get it as low as I can then drop the carboys into the chest freezer and in a few hours it's down to pitching temperature.

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This is what I do. except when I get to 130, I drop the pump in ice water and it takes about 10 min to get to 60 deg.

I keep a covered 20 gallon Rubbermaid Brute can beside my set up on the back porch. It stays clean and ready for any uses I might want until next brew day when I need to use it again for chilling water. Sort of like an old fashioned rain barrel.

Travestian said:

One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is using the runoff water for doing laundry. Just pour it into the washer with a load and the tub won't have to fill as high from the washer since it is only looking for a water level.

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I feel dumb for not thinking of that before..... ive actually had to this more than a few times as a kid because we had a crappy washing machine. This idea totally works for my situation.

Thanks

Why don't you fill up a kiddie pool with the warm water and have the GF invite one of her friends for a beer tasting pool party :rockin:

I'm all for hugging trees and dreaming of wood nymphs. But sometimes people think they're being green but are actually just being nimby. Almost any step added to a process just adds "waste." Using water to make electricity to take water to turn into ice to cool something is wasteful. If you think of your chiller as an extension of your house plumbing, you can rest easier at night. Your hot water heater doesn't "waste" the water passing through it when it heats it.

I had a similar discussion with my roommate about sprinklers on the roof. So I dug into what it takes to run the air conditioner to show him that we are saving water (on a global basis) by reducing the use of the air conditioner by wetting the roof.

It takes 95L of water to produce a kilowatt of electricity. It probably takes at least 6 KW for your freezer to make 45 kg of ice and if your freezer is inside, it is going to add more than 6 KW of heat into your house that your AC will have to cool off. There are 18900 grams in 5 gallons of water. To cool from 100C to to 20C requires 1512000 calories. A gram of ice warmed from -17 C to 20C provides
.5 cal * 17 degrees (up to melting point) + 80 cal (conversion to liquid) + 1 cal * 20 degrees (to warm the water) = 8.5 + 80 + 20 = 108.5 cal/gram.
So in a perfect system it takes 14 kg of ice to get that wort down to pitching temperature.

That 14 kg of ice will require 190L of water to create the electricity to make the ice. Plus more than that water to create the electricity to remove the heat generated by the freezer in the house.

I would split the difference. Use water to cool the wort down halfway and repurpose that water as hot water. Use ice water to finish it and repurpose that cold water.

SWMBO is the same about the water. My ground water temp is 86... I brew 10-12 gal batches and chill it to 68 or below with $6 of ice (bulk from those ice stations), a pump and Blichmann therminator at gravity flow rate.
My key is to put the similar pump in one of those plastic tubs, dump ice on and add just enough water to get water flowing......while the wort is settling from whirlpool, I pre-chill the plate chiller and return all the water to the tub. So I am not reducing the basic water temp by very much...by the time I start wort flowing that chiller is very, very cold. I just let it all recycle that way and by the end of the batch, I'm pretty much out of ice and have the equivalent of 40 lbs of ice in water, which isn't very much, for plant watering.