on oxygenating wort

So I have been involved in many brews, but have just started doing myself. However, the more I am reading on this site I am realizing my "brew mentor" didn't know what the H he was doing and thus I am having to relearn everything I thought I knew. (We made a 1.13 barleywine, pitched I vial of yeast at 90 degrees and scratched our heads when it only made 1.045 and tasted like pancake syrup. You get the idea)
But I digress, here's my question. When we drained the brew kettle, he was always very adamant that we run the wort down the side of the carboy "to avoid contamintation". Then we'd stick the airlock in, and we (usually me since I was the brew slave) would shake the heck out of the think for about three minutes. This doesn't make sense. I am a machinist, so I make a device out of a stainless shaft with silicon fins that will fit inside the carboy, I will hook it up to a power drill, and froth the wort till I think it is adequately oxygenated. Can anyone see anything wrong with this? Please give me your feedback

This is what many people do. you can by a stainless or a plastic mixing attachment for a standard drill chuck for just a few dollars.

They sell those already. What you might want to consider though, especially if you are going to continue doing high gravity brews like that, is should you get an all oxygen set up. William's brewing has one that I just bought. All oxygen is definitely the way to go.

I just purchased the Williams setup and got the small disposable oxygen tank from Lowes that it is setup to use (usually used for oxygen torch). After reading the label on the oxygen tank I am a little hesitant. It states that the contents of package and combustion products are found to be carcinogenic and can cause birth defects per CA regulations blah blah. Anybody know what's up with this?

Shaneoco1981 said:

They sell those already. What you might want to consider though, especially if you are going to continue doing high gravity brews like that, is should you get an all oxygen set up. William's brewing has one that I just bought. All oxygen is definitely the way to go.

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Yes I was trying to look up oxygen equipment, but in getting set up for brewing I quickly met and went beyond my $500 budget and I basically had to choose between a stir plate and something like what your talking about. Ill google williams brewing. Does it honestly make that much difference? Is there a particular model that's recommended?

bellyboy2 said:

I just purchased the Williams setup and got the small disposable oxygen tank from Lowes that it is setup to use (usually used for oxygen torch). After reading the label on the oxygen tank I am a little hesitant. It states that the contents of package and combustion products are found to be carcinogenic and can cause birth defects per CA regulations blah blah. Anybody know what's up with this?

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Yes. The litigation happy state of CA puts that label on everything from cigarettes to garden hoses to tanks of pure O2.

Its almost as silly as their gun laws.


As for the williams brewing oxygen system, you want the one with a regulator and 22" stainless steel airstone/wand. Its like $50 and worth every penny.

+1 to californias gun laws suck. Why is everything I want to shoot illegal here? Ok ok im at brewtalk not guntalk.... (deep breathing) wow I had no idea oxygenating equipment was so affordable. Ill definitely get that for next time. Thanks

i just use a bubble stick with a coarse stone. use a hose with a filter and a fish bubbler. works great

Hockeyhunter99 said:

i just use a bubble stick with a coarse stone. use a hose with a filter and a fish bubbler. works great

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No cleanliness issues with the aquarium equipment? I had thought about that but wasn't sure on this issue. It seems like it would be harder to sanitize but its probably a psychological thing. I know NB sells one that is basically an aquarium pump with a HEPA filter...

malkore said:

As for the williams brewing oxygen system, you want the one with a regulator and 22" stainless steel airstone/wand. Its like $50 and worth every penny.

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I just cap my fermenter and rock it back and forth and get a good froth in less than a minute. Do it a couple of times, and it's good. Never had a problem with a beer finishing.

I know it's against the popular thought, but I think an oxygen set-up would be more complicated, add contamination risk, and not be worth more than a couple of dollars.

Calder said:

I just cap my fermenter and rock it back and forth and get a good froth in less than a minute. Do it a couple of times, and it's good. Never had a problem with a beer finishing.

I know it's against the popular thought, but I think an oxygen set-up would be more complicated, add contamination risk, and not be worth more than a couple of dollars.

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I am pretty new at this but I am agreement here. I have 8 brews under my belt so far and use the hell out of a beer paddle. After 30 seconds I get a huge froth and then beat the hell out of it for another minute or so. I have only had one brew not ferment within 72 hours and that (i believe) was due to dead yeast. Also, I have hit mid gravity almost every brew.:rockin:

Low tech but effective.

Yes, beers will "finish" with that method of aeration. But there are countless studies in the professional AND academic literature demonstrating an average FG of 1-2 points higher with aeration methods like this that use ambient air as the source (even when completely saturated at 8ppm with an aquarium pump.)

The science is also very clear that under-oxygenation (which for most strains, is a concentration of oxygen below 10ppm or even higher) negatively affects yeast health, and that the problems only further compound with each generation, if you continue to under-oxygenate. Studies utilizing taste panels to measure more subjective metrics have also strongly determined the overall benefit of adequately oxygenating wort.

Don't get me wrong though, you can make pretty great beer even with aeration methods like letting the wort splash into the fermentor as you transfer it. But it makes harvesting yeast somewhat more problematic, and DEFINITELY not able to realistically be re-used as many times - so the cost of yeast alone means that oxygenation systems will quite easily pay for themselves. But even more importantly to me, providing the yeast with an adequate level of oxygenation can take an already great beer and elevate it to the next level (although it can't work miracles - it will never turn a bad beer into a good one). I am very serious about making my beers as close to 'perfect" as I possibly can. So when the scientific literature is unambiguous that adequate oxygenation overall results in improved flavor profiles, and when there is as close to an absolute academic and professional consensus as is possible, given the subjective nature of the whole thing, it becomes a no-brainer for me. Especially when an oxygenation kit costs relatively little.

Really, the only legitimate debate on the matter is how much of an improvement you can potentially see RELATIVE to other techniques and equipment. For instance, fermentation temperature control has far more of an influence than oxygenation on the quality of the finished product. So if you don't yet have any sort of temp control, it is probably better to spend your money in that particular area. In this regard, oxygenation occupies a fairly low rung in any well-thought-out list of priorities.

Lastly, a minority of yeast strains ARE adequately oxygenated by 8ppm and even a bit less. And even more interesting to consider is that a still smaller minority of styles of beer can actually benefit from stressing the yeast with inadequate oxygen levels (although the issues with harvesting and re-using are still present.) Advanced homebrewers can and do experiment with varying levels of oxygenation in order to determine the ideal levels required in order to achieve the flavor profiles they are looking for. But it's not even possible to usefully experiment in such a manner when you restrict yourself merely to different degrees of under-oxygenation.

I used vigorously shake my carboy 2-3 times for a minute or so.

There is video where Wyeast microbiologist discuss about aerating wort:


And also chart with ppm obtained by different methods:
http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_oxygenation.cfm

You can see that we can get 8 ppm w/shaking, and same amount with aquarium pump.
I was thinking to buy aquarium pump, but if these results are correct I dont see reason why to do it (maybe if I start to brew more than 6-7 gallons which are heavier and difficult to shake strongly).
Until then, I" stick with shaking my carboy.

I believe you emjay. I am also I perfectionist. If the oxygen equipment makes even a slight noticable difference in my mind its worth it. I would even go as far as splitting a batch and trying each just to see if it was discernable

brewhaha2057 said:

No cleanliness issues with the aquarium equipment? I had thought about that but wasn't sure on this issue. It seems like it would be harder to sanitize but its probably a psychological thing. I know NB sells one that is basically an aquarium pump with a HEPA filter...

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it has a filter on it. i put it in StarSan and the spray it down. no infections.

emjay, I don't buy it all!

I shake the crap out of mine, get great ferments, and no problems with subsequent generations of yeast.

I'll agree there is an optimum amount of oxygen for the 'perfect' ferment, but I don't know that using an oxygen pump is going to help you hit it. How do you know how much is the right amount? Remember oxygen is actually toxic to yeast, so giving it too much can have a detrimental effect.

As I said earlier, I find it pretty easy to shake the fermenter, and using a pump and oxygen just adds expense and potential for contamination for little or no benefit.

Calder said:

emjay, I don't buy it all!

I shake the crap out of mine, get great ferments, and no problems with subsequent generations of yeast.

I'll agree there is an optimum amount of oxygen for the 'perfect' ferment, but I don't know that using an oxygen pump is going to help you hit it. How do you know how much is the right amount? Remember oxygen is actually toxic to yeast, so giving it too much can have a detrimental effect.

As I said earlier, I find it pretty easy to shake the fermenter, and using a pump and oxygen just adds expense and potential for contamination for little or no benefit.

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Oxygen is toxic to yeast at high concentrations, yes. It's also toxic to humans and every other living thing, for that matter. That's actually why contamination in the air line is pretty much a non-issue. Aquarium pump setups use in-line sanitary wheel filters that are manufactured largely for medical use, and some people choose to use them with oxygen tank setups as well. With or without a filter though, an oxygen-tank-based setup compares very favorably, in terms of contamination potential, to a siphon, racking cane, thief, or anything else that might touch your wort.

As for how it helps you reach the optimum oxygen concentration, it's a simple matter of saturation, and the composition of air. When you use an aquarium pump, or shake the fermentor vigorously, you are only dissolving ambient air, which is only 21% oxygen. So when wort is completely saturated with air, it only has a concentration of 8ppm of oxygen (and substantially more nitrogen, in addition to lots of other gases). However, when you use pure oxygen from a tank, you are ONLY dissolving oxygen into the wort, and since other gases aren't dissolved and using up the wort's capacity to hold gases, you can reach MUCH higher O2 concentrations.

You refer to an "oxygen pump", when it's simply a pressurized tank, so I think you might possibly be confusing it with an aquarium pump? Since those ones use the same air that you use when shaking, they're not really any better, and so I don't see the point in spending money on it, especially considering that a pure oxygen setup is just marginally more expensive, and a tank of oxygen only costs about $10 for around 20 uses or so.

Whether or not you choose to buy into it is up to you, but the science is more than clear as to the benefits of using pure oxygen

bellyboy2 said:

It states that the contents of package and combustion products are found to be carcinogenic and can cause birth defects per CA regulations blah blah.

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So I know this is an old thread, I just happened to come across this and thought I'd offer a clarification (no comment on the gun laws post...)

The key phrase in that warning is combustion products What they are talking about is if you hook this O2 tank up in combustion with a LPG tank (or similar) and burn it, it will create combustion products. Like anything else you burn. And, yes, basically any fire from any fuel produces hazardous pollutants.

So that's all there is to that. Using this O2 in brewing is just using O2, nothing to see here.