unsour berliner weisse

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user 22118

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I tried to make a berliner weisse and it is not sour after around 15 days. sure, "takes more time" I will hear you say. I still think that there should be some sort of a sour flavor. What can I do? I don't want to RDWHAHB. I do want to understand why there is no sour because I am just about to make up a barrel aged sour beer with brett and don't want to just have a barrel aged beer.

Thoughts?
 
Do you have this in the barrel right now or in a carboy? Has your SG dropped at all? After fermentation the lacto really can't survive. But if it hasn't take a .5 pound of grain crush it and add to beer. The lacto in/on the grain will help sour the beer.
 
The key to getting a sour bw is to let the lacto ferment for 24-72 hrs before adding the sach. The organisms involved in souring a lambic such as pedio are much more hardy than lacto and take months to years to fully develop flavors. Lacto sourness is typically developed quicker as the lacto dies off at higher alcohol levels and is over come by the sach fermentation. Although you wont get the same results you can get a close approximation by adding lactic acid to taste at bottling.
 
I agree with all above posters, although I would not suggest adding crushed grain to your wort, as you never can tell what youll get. My last experience smell like hot vomit and this filled my house

Keys to getting sourness in a Berliner, Im assuming you used WY/WL lacto, is to keep the IBU extremely low <<10IBU (both strains are horribly intolerant of IBU's approaching 10), pitch the lacto early, keep it warm and really let it get going for at least 24hrs before the sacch

At this point your really not gonna get any significant sourness, your best bet is to either sour up a small batch (lacto only) and add that to your berliner, add lactic acid, or what Ive done with unimpressive berliners is to add lemon juice.

Adding the lemon juice will up the acidity and gives it a very nice bright citrus aroma/flavor
 
all of this is useful information. I am not saying I didn't do it wrong, but I followed the instructions from Wyeast and made up a starter (10gallon batch) that I let go for a week and then pitched that into my wort. I realize that a lot of people use the pitch 24 hours in advance and get good results, but I am looking for really sour. I had assumed that by using this method (starter) I would get a great sour flavor and be able to enjoy this guy! So far, no good.

My recipe aside, I have an OG of 1.034 and a FG of 1.007, IBU 6, SRM 2 and abv 3.2%. I am sure that the lacto isn't dead because of the beer. If anything I might have killed it in the starter as there wasn't a pellicle in the starter. I tasted the starter prior to pitching just to make sure that maybe, just maybe, the pellicle wouldn't form in a week and that I was on the right track and it tasted like a hint of sourness. I was excited and pitched it in along with my yeast.

In the future, I just want to make sure that I did kill the lacto starter so that I can attempt it again and maybe this time acheive better results.

Any thoughts on why the lacto (aside from dead) might not be souring this at all?

PS...I did a fake version of this using acidulated malt and it is beautifully sour. Not very complex like I was hoping for, but sour. I now know how to get a "sour" beer easily, but I really am interested in finding out how to make this Lacto thing work as in the next week I am looking at brewing up a bigger barrel aged beer and this was kinda the test.
 
You really need to wait. I pitched some lacto-d into mine, sans Sacch, and it fermented down to 1.008 in about 24 hours before I added the sacch. The sacch never did much of anything. But even after the lacto took it down to 1.008, it wasn't sour, just odd-tasting. Now, after conditioning for ~3 months, it's really starting to get sour.

If you're impatient and want to speed it up, though, you can do what ryane says and add lactic acid. I wouldn't suggest lemon juice myself, but to each his own.
 
You should really have at least a tartness by now. My Berliners have had a noticeable tartness within two weeks, that did get a bit stronger over the next month.

Of course, 5gal of a recent Berliner (fermented with LactoD and Brett C) still smells a bit like vomit, but the Brett L one smells good, so hopefully the vomit will air off.


Edit: And souring a Berliner is completely different than souring most other "styles". Berliners get (traditionally) all of their sourness from Lacto, and since lacto is so picky, to get a good level of sourness it pretty much has to happen early. But most others get most of their sourness from Pedio, and some aceto/brett/whathaveyou. Pedio (and the others) take longer, benefit from a lot more time, go through longer stages etc. With a lambic, you really have to be patient for the sourness to develop. With a Berliner, well, if it ain't even noticeable in 3-4 weeks, well, it isn't age that it probably needs.
 
I have a berliner that is like 6 months old now and I am not happy with the level of sourness, it's there but I was hoping for something like the New Glarus Berliner Weiss. I made a lacto starter and kept it in the 90s for a day before pitching, then pitched at the same time as the yeast. I have it warm aging in a keg right now and hopefully it will get more sour this way, I have considered buying another pack of lacto and adding it...or just adding some lactic acid directly. Next time I think I am only going to chill the wort down to like 90, pitch the lacto, then once it comes down into the 60s naturally I will add the Sacc.
 
That is another thing about using Lacto. It seems so damned variable.

With sour beers more than any other beer, it is all about personal experience. I mean, we could talk for hours about our processes, our experiences, our equipment, and STILL not figure out why your sourness took months to develop and mine took weeks.

The worst part is, who knows how variable the commercial bugs themselves are. Hell, according to the Babble Belt, the White Labs Brett C isn't even a pure culture.

So yeah, personal experience, wait it out, see how it develops, make more, see how those develop, come up with your own experiences, and then share them with us and donate to the developing pool of knowledge concerning these bugs.
 
FWIW Ive had far better luck souring a berliner with dregs from calabaza blanca than with using the WY/WL strains, Ive found both to be seriously lacking in what I expect from lactic bacteria

I also have to agree with chris about the sourness, lactobacillus should be producing lactic acid very soon upon being added to the wort, especially the WY/WL versions as both are according to WY/WL homofermentative, so if your wort dropped to 1008 there had to be lactic acid in there, dunno why the weird taste, maybe you were tasting the bacteria in suspension?

Lambics dont have as large of a contribution from lactobacillus bacteria, instead pedio are producing the lions share of lactic acid and they take awhile to get going, thats why it takes longer for the sourness to develop

Evan - Id say you should give the lemon juice a shot, at least in a glass or two, you may be pleasantly surprised

I do agree about letting it sit awhile though, I mean afterall we are dealing with unpredictable biology here and you never can tell how things will end up, I also thing that a berliner with a big of age is much better than a really fresh one. aging allows some of the meaty wheatiness to fade and allows the beer to really come together
 
Though it's only been two weeks, I really think/thought that there should be some sort of idea about sourness. I made this beer to be kegged within a month and at this rate, there will be zero sour by that time and I won't be happy. So two more weeks of unhappy is not looking good.

Since I think that I killed off my culture though and might well just make another to confirm that I did it incorrectly, I will assume that I got the starter too warm and it didn't produce any lacto.

Also, I did try the sour mash technique, though didn't utilize the fruits of it. I wanted to make sure that this culture worked and hindsight is somewhat kicking me in the ass.
 
Well, if you designed a sour beer to be ready to drink in a month, then I'd say you were asking too much. I've never heard of a b-weisse that was ready to drink in a month! Exactly how warm did you get your starter? You're making assumptions that don't need to be made. IIWY, I'd leave this batch alone and make another. I'd bet that in a couple months, it's sour. If I'm wrong, well, all you do is add some lactic acid and there you are. Honestly, I think it's harder to kill a lacto culture than you think. I pitched about a quarter of a WL tube, no starter, into my 1.032 OG b-weisse wort (w/ no saccharomyces!), and the next morning, I had a thick head of bubbles. In 2 days, it took it from 1.032 to 1.008. All this from a quarter of a tube that was probably a year old. So unless you boiled your damn culture, I'm skeptical of this whole "I killed it!" line of thinking.
 
I agree with Evan! that it's pretty hard to kill the lacto unintentionally.

Time is your friend, Grasshopper. You're a winemaker, you should know that.

OTOH if you need to have the beer done for an event, cheat and add lactic acid, learn your lesson and move on.

PTN
 
Although I'm a noob of sorts, I made an extract Berliner about 6 weeks ago. I couldn't find an extract recipe so I created my own. After reading about a few peoples not to their taste experiences online, I decided to skip the lactobacillus altogether and added 70 mL lactic acid at kegging (5 gallon batch). It tasted a bit off at first but after about 2 weeks, it has come around and now I'm digging it. Just a data point if you will...
 
My fake berliner is tasting really great now and with the heat out currently, i am digging it completely. I used acidulated malt to complete that one. I have two kegs of the stuff and it will get me through till the lacto version is done.

I keep waiting...
 
I had the best Berliner Weisse I've ever had this past weekend at the jamboree.

Owner of Granite Cask homebrew shop had it on tap.
He soured the mash with 2lbs of base malt in a steeping bag and set his temp control at 100 degrees and left it for three days.
Said the smell made him almost want to puke.
Ran it off, boiled and fermented out.
Stuff was REALLY good.

I've brewed two and am going this route on the third batch.
 
That's on my docket for when I get home this afternoon, I picked up the grains last week and haven't had a chance to do it yet. So he left it for three days. That's two days longer than I've ever done but I'll go with it and see how it rolls.

Hey Babalu, I've got a Oud Bruin that I think you'll like. I'll have it kegged up for the Masstoberfest, you can try it then.

PTN
 
That's on my docket for when I get home this afternoon, I picked up the grains last week and haven't had a chance to do it yet. So he left it for three days. That's two days longer than I've ever done but I'll go with it and see how it rolls.

Hey Babalu, I've got a Oud Bruin that I think you'll like. I'll have it kegged up for the Masstoberfest, you can try it then.

PTN

I put an Oud Bruin in secondary last week, hopefully its ready for next Oktober :rockin:

I aint rushing it, thats why I bought 3 more carboys. Once these sowah bishes get their hooks in you getting away is unpossible
 
I just had a brewer friend try my fake berliner and he said not sour enough! I was shocked. I have seen lesser men almost cry after having a taste. Well, back to the drawing board.

I keep waiting on the lacto guy...We are at just over a month. Time to check it today maybe...
 
So how active a ferment/fumky dance do you expect leaving the grains in for three days? Do you get any krausen-like covering or just a low layer of foam?

PTN

Dont know but I know this.

When I make a batch of beer I go over by a little so I have starter wort.
After hitting my pre-boil the rest goes into coke bottles/juice bottles etc and gets frozen or put in the fridge if I will be using it soon.
Usually around 1.020-1.030 wort that I boil and cool when ready to make a starter..................OK babalu get on with it

Well, prior to the homebrew jamboree I was racking/moving kegs and left a 3 liter bottle of wort on the basement floor.
Got home and noticed some foam on the top, nothing in the way of krausen but OH MY DOES IT SMELL LIKE ASS................. BAD ASS like dumpster diving sex ass

Might just put a little of it in an experimental sour :drunk:
 
When I made up my sour, I took the runnings that were left and put them into a better bottle (that is still in there and AWFUL!!!!) and added a handful of grains. Left it out for two days in 90* days and 50* nights. It was heaven in a glass. I would keg that up right away. If I had to do the sour again, I would mash in and let it go through sach rest, sparge into the kettle, throw some grain in there at 110* and let it sit for a day or two. Then get rid of the grain and boil it up to stop the lacto (or let it keep going) and then pitch onto that. It would be heavenly I think. In fact, if you didn't boil it to kill the lacto, I think that I would make it slightly higher gravity, say 1.060. Then the alcohol would do away with the lacto and I would have some slick stuff!

I hate you people. I will have to do this again now. Feck.

This is my 1,500th post! Woo hoo!

PPS...I bought another Duchess to try out.
 
I can't help that I have posted 1.500 instructional and useful posts, unlike that beast of a thread that is nearly 120pages long and full of nonsense.
 
Duchess is still nail polish smelling oxidized swill.

On topic though, my Berliner Weiss is going to be kegged and called Budweiser. I just don't see it getting sour at all, ever...ther was zero sour when I tested it yesterday and the ph has not gone down at all. I call this a fail and I will retry again some day.
 
Haven't the chance yet. I am going to give a third go, but if you tell me that you have a glass of port and a glass of the Duchess side by side there aren't similarities, you (plural you) are effing crazy! My friend tried it before I said anything, told him it was a Belgian beer, many awards, barrel aged. He said, "This is beer? What is that flavor? Is there fruit in this?". I said negative and told him the story from the website. He said, he wasn't a fan either. I had some port next to it and he said that it was very similar. Try it out and let me know. I personally don't like my beer or wine oxidized. Port, sure. Beer and wine, nope.
 
Why don't you just back sour with lactic acid, or a blend of acids? It's not the real thing..but its better than being reminded of what could have been every time you drink your "budweiser"

My 1st berliner soured but not enough, so I added lactic and after letting it sit and blend for a week it was great.
 
Know Wha also might have been the problem, I don't have much sugar left in this. I am at less than a percent (1.004) and so there isn't much to actually sour. Maybe next time I will mash highr. Does lacto eat dextrose or just sucrose? I want the lacto to be the last thing working right?
 
Dude, relax. The souring sometimes takes time. If you are really worried, add the dregs from Cuvee Renee in there.
 
There is no sour in this at all. I want to make sure that everyone reading this knows to mash higher so that the lacto has something to eat, or add the lacto the first two days of the fermentation. That or do a sour mash which is most likely what I will do the next time. Sour doesn't take this long to get to that point. The lacto didn't work out. Maybe if I had done it up at a higher temp and or used some pedio instead.
\
Good luck
 
Good thing about B. Weisse is it is pretty cheap to make, and quick to find out the results. Much easier to experiment with this than with lambic or other longer term sour beers.
 
word to that. Glad I started here rather than a longer aged guy. I am thinking I will make up my belgian dubbel recipe in the next week or two and use the Wyeast Lambic Blend to put it together. That should age a while and turn out tasty.
 
I just made one last night and added the lacto this morning. We'll see how it turns out. I followed Jamil's recipe in a recent Brew Magazine.
 
Same challenge here...7 weeks and hardly any sour. How much latic acid for a 5 gallon batch should I add?
 
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