Starsan as good as PBW by Five Star?

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BeerFun

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I need to clean a fermenting bucked that hasn't been rinsed when it was empty. Will Starsan do the job?
 
Starsan is not a cleanser, but a sanitizer.

Many here, including me, use Oxiclean Free or similar products to clean - I can't speak from experience on PBW because I've never used it.

For sanitizing, most people seem to use Starsan or Idophor (which I use).

Take a look at the sanitizing/equipment forum for lots more info.

Cheers!
 
Was curious and googled, it came upon this, from these forums, so I thought I'd post it:

Evan! said:
No, PBW is different---it's a caustic rather than an oxygen based cleaner. If you put an oxyclean solution into an aluminum kettle, it will turn dark gray from oxidation; pbw won't.

Either cleaner will work fine on a plastic bucket. I've used both. I prefer oxyclean, just for it's soaking capabilities. That stuff takes everything off, love it. Make sure it's oxyclean FREE though.
 
Was curious and googled, it came upon this, from these forums, so I thought I'd post it:



Either cleaner will work fine on a plastic bucket. I've used both. I prefer oxyclean, just for it's soaking capabilities. That stuff takes everything off, love it. Make sure it's oxyclean FREE though.
That post you quoted is wrong, PBW is not a caustic and this is why it is so great for homebrewers. Can you imagine what would happen if they were selling caustic to hombrewers? There would be a lot of dermatologists with full waiting rooms.

It also is oxygen based as it's primarily sodium percarbonate, the same thing that is in Oxiclean. The primary difference is that PBW has water softeners in it.
 
This is what happens and you get a forum post as an answer.... DOH!

PBW, yah, isnt caustic.

Star San and PBW, two different things. One IS a cleaner, the other is NOT... it is only a sanitizer.

Like Pappers said, many use Oxi to clean instead of PBW, as it is MUCH cheaper and cleans extremely well. Works better if you dont have hard water though (film)
 
Thank you for the info. Didn't know this. Some days ago I cleaned a plastic bucket I had brewed beer in. I used Starsan, and I let it soak over night. I'm now brewing wine in it. The bucket was shiny clean, but can using Starsan have left some nasty invisible tastes in it?
 
I guess all tastes are invisible, as far as I can tell.
At least I don't remember seeing any.

StarSan has almost no flavor.
It is actually safe to drink when diluted (don't drink the concentrate!).

See the Don't Fear the Foam threads.
 
The problem is:
Starsan doesn't CLEAN things, it just kills germs.
Starsan CAN'T kill germs if there is any residue on the surface, (oil, dirt, anything organic).

The solution is:
First CLEAN using Oxyclean, PBW, or hell, even dish soap!
RINSE well, to get rid of any trace of your cleaner.
SANITIZE your now clean vessel with Starsan.
 
That post you quoted is wrong, PBW is not a caustic and this is why it is so great for homebrewers. Can you imagine what would happen if they were selling caustic to hombrewers? There would be a lot of dermatologists with full waiting rooms.

It also is oxygen based as it's primarily sodium percarbonate, the same thing that is in Oxiclean. The primary difference is that PBW has water softeners in it.


Five Star's Liquid Line Cleaner (LLC) product is caustic. I got it at my LHBS.
 
There's Caustic and then there's Caustic Soda, the latter specifically meaning Sodium Hydroxide. Caustic in chemical terms just means anything strongly Alkaline. Oxyclean is a caustic. A sure test if something is caustic is to get a little on your fingers. If it feels really slippery, it's caustic. What it is doing is saponifying some of the oils on/in your skin and making a mini batch of soap.

Also while Starsan is a sanitizer and technically not a cleanser, the active ingredient is a type of detergent. It can be used as a cleanser, BUT, not at the same time you expect to use it as a Sanitizer. Use it for one or the other. I'll save my "used" Starsan to clean with. Then when I want to sanitize, I'll make up a fresh batch. I don't sanitize with Starsan I've used for cleaning. It seems silly to me to pour used Starsan down the drain only to mix up some Oxyclean for cleaning. You'll have to do some scrubbing like you would with any dish soap. You can't just let it soak like with Oxyclean. Now if I've got some nasty kreusen in a carboy to deal with, I break out the Oxyclean
 
I find PBW to be superior and worth the minimal extra cost. I don't like using Oxyclean as I feel I never get it rinsed satisfactorily and PBW just does a way better cleaning job in way less time.
 
Five Star's Liquid Line Cleaner (LLC) product is caustic. I got it at my LHBS.
If by caustic you mean alkaline, then yes many household chemicals including bleach are caustic. But in the brewing world when talking about cleaners "caustic" refers to caustic soda cleaners. PBW is a buffered alkaline cleaner and is considered non-caustic. Even if you do consider that a caustic by your own definition that post was still incredibly wrong because PBW uses oxygen to remove deposits.
 
I find PBW to be superior and worth the minimal extra cost. I don't like using Oxyclean as I feel I never get it rinsed satisfactorily and PBW just does a way better cleaning job in way less time.

It's really not a minimal extra cost. PBW is $20 for 4 lbs ($5/lb), Oxiclean is $6.50 for 2.5 lbs ($2.60/lb) or $11 for 96 oz. ($1.83/lb) and apparently "Sun Oxygen Cleaner" is the same as Oxiclean and is available for $1/lb.

I'm not trying to convince you to use oxiclean, or anything else, but PBW is way more expensive.

If by caustic you mean alkaline, then yes many household chemicals including bleach are caustic. But in the brewing world when talking about cleaners "caustic" refers to caustic soda cleaners. PBW is a buffered alkaline cleaner and is considered non-caustic. Even if you do consider that a caustic by your own definition that post was still incredibly wrong because PBW uses oxygen to remove deposits.



LLC is a 38% solution of sodium hydroxide.

PBW is not caustic. I didn't say it was. I was simply pointing out that you can buy ACTUAL caustic at your LHBS.
 
I think the cost is small because it translates into less that a cent per pour difference and I get away more enjoyment than that from the difference. I have used a ton of oxi in my day and honestly much prefer PBW.
 
LLC is a 38% solution of sodium hydroxide.

PBW is not caustic. I didn't say it was. I was simply pointing out that you can buy ACTUAL caustic at your LHBS.
Right on, I should have read your post a little closer. That product isn't marketed specifically at homebrewers though and I have never seen it for sale in a homebrew store. Consider yourself lucky that your LHBS owner finds his customers responsible enough to use it.
 
FWIW, I use Oxi to clean instead of PBW.

I have SOFT water

I rinse my fermentors with StarSan anyway...

It think it cleans just as well as PBW in my brewery.

I set my BK to 150F, put in 7 gallons of water and one scoop of Oxi (generic) and let it soak for an hour, drain... done. I have not seen a difference in the (2) cleaners, just in the size of my wallet.
 
FWIW, I use Oxi to clean instead of PBW.

I have SOFT water

I think this is where I think you will see the most difference between people think that one is better than the other. If you have hard water, I think you will have less luck with Oxi and prefer PBW.
 
I think this is where I think you will see the most difference between people think that one is better than the other. If you have hard water, I think you will have less luck with Oxi and prefer PBW.

Exactly, which is why I mentioned that.
 
I think the cost is small because it translates into less that a cent per pour difference and I get away more enjoyment than that from the difference. I have used a ton of oxi in my day and honestly much prefer PBW.

BK not trying to sway you but you using fuzzy math? @2.60 a pound for Oxy and PBW @ 5$ per pound where do you get less than a cent difference? Just wondering .

Edit: Never mind I just reread ... Per use
 
I think the cost is small because it translates into less that a cent per pour difference and I get away more enjoyment than that from the difference. I have used a ton of oxi in my day and honestly much prefer PBW.


I bought a pound of PBW recently, so I've been thinking about the cost of cleaners lately. I paid $6.75 for that pound jar of PBW. They recommend to use 1 oz. per gallon, so you can get 16 gallons of solution at their recommended rate. If I wanted to soak my fermenter, a 15 gallon conical, in PBW, I'd have to use essentially the entire pound. It would cost me almost $7 to clean my fermenter. If you want to break it down to pours, that's way more than 1 cent per pour. The total ingredient cost for my average batch is under $30. Adding $7 to clean my fermenter is adding a very significant percentage to my overall cost (not to mention cost for cleaning the kegs and other things that require cleaning throughout the course of a batch).

For a 10 gallon batch, if you were to soak your fermenter, two kegs and some other equipment in PBW, you're talking $10-$15 in cost of PBW for a single batch. That's just too much for me to swallow when there is a 90% as effective alternative available for half the cost, or less.
 
I do not use there recommended amounts. Those recommendations are for heavy soil and eat through crazy amounts of dirt. I use about one oxiclean sized scoop per five gallons.

The only time I use the recommended dose is when I am cleaning out soda kegs for the first time. Then the extra is worth it to completely clean it out and remove all the soda smell.
 
I work in a brewery and we use PBW and no you don't need to use as much as it recommends, I would say we use less than a half of a pound in 20 gal of water. Also as far as arguing weather or not it's a caustic, yes it is, a dangerous one? NO, but it is a caustic, it feels slippery on your hands and it will dissolve some skin if you where to soak your hand it it for a period of time. One thing I have noticed since I started working at a brewery is that homebrewers tend to over complicate things, you can use whatever you want as long as it cleans your equipment, just make sure you rinse well and use a good sanitizer.
 
I work in a brewery and we use PBW and no you don't need to use as much as it recommends.

IIRC, the recommended amount is optimized for a cold use or hot use without a soak. So if you can use it hot and soak for say 24 hours then you can use considerably less.

It is also important to note that you can re-use pbw. When I cleaned out a bunch of kegs I used 1 5-gallon mix (at recommended strength) and cleanec like 6 old soda kegs. Work perfectly.
 
I find PBW to be superior and worth the minimal extra cost. I don't like using Oxyclean as I feel I never get it rinsed satisfactorily and PBW just does a way better cleaning job in way less time.

+1 I'm in complete agreement with this. I've used Oxi-Clean to soak a badly stained plastic fermentation bucket, but I can't use it for extended soaks on glass, because our well water is far too hard, and it will deposit a white film. The "extras" in PBW take care of that just fine. I guess the cost of PBW doesn't bother me, because I don't use all that much. I use it to soak labels off bottles and give them a good initial cleaning, and I use it to clean the inside of carboys (glass & BB), which I only use for secondaries anyhow, so that's not a big deal.

I've read a thread that states you can mix the generic "Sun" brand Oxi-Clean with Arm & Hammer Washing Soda & get the same effect as PBW. I haven't tried it, so I wouldn't know.
 
I guess all tastes are invisible, as far as I can tell.
At least I don't remember seeing any.

StarSan has almost no flavor.
It is actually safe to drink when diluted (don't drink the concentrate!).

See the Don't Fear the Foam threads.

Well, there is a possibility that he is experiencing synaesthesia.
 
I bought a pound of PBW recently, so I've been thinking about the cost of cleaners lately. I paid $6.75 for that pound jar of PBW. They recommend to use 1 oz. per gallon, so you can get 16 gallons of solution at their recommended rate. If I wanted to soak my fermenter, a 15 gallon conical, in PBW, I'd have to use essentially the entire pound. It would cost me almost $7 to clean my fermenter. If you want to break it down to pours, that's way more than 1 cent per pour. The total ingredient cost for my average batch is under $30. Adding $7 to clean my fermenter is adding a very significant percentage to my overall cost (not to mention cost for cleaning the kegs and other things that require cleaning throughout the course of a batch).

For a 10 gallon batch, if you were to soak your fermenter, two kegs and some other equipment in PBW, you're talking $10-$15 in cost of PBW for a single batch. That's just too much for me to swallow when there is a 90% as effective alternative available for half the cost, or less.

If you read the label- you'll notice that is for CIP operations. For general soaking as we homebrewers are wont to do, 1-2 Tbsp per 5 gal of hot water is sufficient. I wrote this down after hearing Charlie Talley mention it (on a Basic Brewing podcast IIRC).
 
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