A Brewing Water Chemistry Primer

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I think the drops are of uniform size as the hypo needle is cut square to its axis (i.e. not sharp) with no burrs inside or out so surface tension should enforce consistency.

I'm not trying to convince you that they aren't - just throw some things out for you to think about.

The color changes are sharp and rapid. I also was under the impression that these indicators had very consistent pH transitions points.
Ummm. I'm color blind but when I look at the instructions for bromcresol green methyl red indicator used in alkalinity tests they say titrate to one color for one value of pH and another for another depending on which definition of alkalinity you are using. These would all look the same to me and even people with normal color vision have different levels of acuity. Also, the shapness of the calmagite endpoint depends on magnesium being present and on pH (a buffer is usually added to insure that the pH is correct) etc. In any event when you are using an indicator you are asking for a human to make a judgement and humans aren't always consistent in that. Fatigue, the color quality of the light being used to make the determination, the angle of subtense of the object being looked at all have an effect on how we perceive color. None of these may have an appreciable effect but in general an instrumental method is always preferred. With alkalinity you have the possibility of using a pH meter. With hardness you don't. There is an instrumental calcium/magnesium hardness test but the instrument is a sprectrophotometer.

The collaborative study is interesting, but one would need to be somewhat assured that all investigators had consistently good experimental technique.

In such a test you are measuring the method and the analyst. If a method gives a high CV intra lab then the chemistry itself is too variable. If it has a decent intra lab CV but a high inter lab CV then analysts are too variable (for this method).


I guess the cleanest method would be for me to carefully measure a water sample (multiple times to observe my own variation) and then have the same sample measured by an outside lab that would provide error bars about their measurements.

That's a good idea but it would be better if someone else put together the test sample without telling you what (quantitatively) is in it. Also, it should be made up with standardized chemicals (available from Hach and others) using Class A glassware dunked in a water bath etc. Quantitative analysis is a fascinating subject but there are lots of things to consider.
 
triangulum33 said:
How do APA, IPA, and Belgian styles fit into Yooper's guide?

For the APA/IPA, the baseline should work pretty well, although the added sulfate in the guideline for British beers works well to accentuate the hop bitterness.

As for Belgian styles, it really depends on the specific beer, but the baseline should also work great in almost every case. Keep in mind that chloride tends to accentuate malt sweetness, while sulfate accentuates hop bitterness. If you're unsure what to do, just go with the baseline (it's referred to as the "baseline" for a reason ;)), and if you make future batches, you can adjust it with a tsp of calcium chloride or calcium sulfate if you think it might benefit, although the sulfate in particular is inappropriate in most cases.

P.S.: it was posted by Yooper, but it's AJ's guide ;)
 
By Ajdelange

For British beers: Add 1 tsp gypsum as well as 1 tsp calcium chloride
[/QUOTE]

So using 100% RO water for a British beer, I am adding 1 tsp of gypsum and 2tsp of calcium chloride per five gallons of water plus +1% sauermalz? Just want to make sure before I hit the LHBS. Thank you.
 
Does anybody on here add NaCl or table sugar as a salt addition. My water profile in low on NA and CL, but is pretty high on calcium and sulphates. Thought it may be a good way to up the levels I need, but not sure how much to add because the calculators out there don't have it included
 
They don't? Are you sure about that?

Anyway you start by determining the amount of NaCl you propose to add to each liter. If you are going to add 1 gram per gallon the amount per liter is 1000/3.7854 (1000 milligrams per gram, 3.7854 liters per gallon). Now convert that to millimoles/L by dividing by the molecular weight of sodium chloride, 58.44 mg/mmo, so that 1 gram/gal is 1000/3.78534/58.44 mmol/L. Each millimole of NaCl contibutes 1 mmol of sodium and one of chloride. To get the weights you multiply by the atomic weights of, respectively, sodium and chloride ion. One gram per gallon contrubutes
22.99*1000/3.78534/58.44 mg/L sodium and
35.45*1000/3.78534/58.4 mg/L chloride
 
Does anybody on here add NaCl or table sugar as a salt addition. My water profile in low on NA and CL, but is pretty high on calcium and sulphates. Thought it may be a good way to up the levels I need, but not sure how much to add because the calculators out there don't have it included

You're using the wrong calculator. Bru'n Water has table salt in it because I like to use it on occassion in limited quantity.
 
So I did a Boddingtons Clone using the RO water. The ingredients were:

46.2 4.50 lbs. English Pale 2-row Malt 1.038
15.4 1.00 lbs. Toasted Malt(2-row) America 1.033
7.7 0.50 lbs. Brown Sugar Generic 1.046
7.7 0.50 lbs. Cara-Pils Dextrine Malt 1.033
7.7 0.50 lbs. Crystal 60L America 1.034
7.7 0.50 lbs. Flaked Oats America 1.033
7.7 0.50 lbs. Flaked Wheat America 1.034

I made the recommended adjustments to my water for an English style ale and added 1 tsp gypsum and 1 tsp calcium chloride (per 5 gal treated) plus the sauermalz - 2 % of the total weight of the other grains. I took a mash reading using the cheap strips and was at 4.7. I know this is low (if I am shooting for 5.2). My efficiency was low as expected based on the low PH. So my questions are:

Is a PH of 4.7 low because of the style I am shooting for and therefor on track?

Should I have added additional gypsum to hit 5.2?

Should I add less sauermalz next time?

Can this PH of 4.7 help me establish a baseline for future water additions?

Thank you.
 
In the same way that a brewer should not add alkalinity until they are reasonably sure they will need it, acid malt or acid should be reserved and at the ready until proven necessary. This mash did not need the acid malt.

I see that there is a decent amount of crystal malt in the grist and that adds a quantity of acid to the grist on its own. Maybe that's the reason that the pH fell further than wanted.

A target mash pH of 5.2 is only desirable if you are measuring that pH at mash temperature. We typically discuss mash pH at room temperature measurement. In this case, that 5.2 mash temperature pH would likely be somewhere around 5.4 to 5.5 at room temperature. I can vouch that a 5.2 room temperature mash pH produces a somewhat tart and overly acidic finished beer. Still drinkable, just not as enjoyable. Aim for a 5.4 to 5.5 room temperature mash pH in the future. Do recognize that pH strips tend to report pH about 0.3 units lower than if measured properly with a pH meter. The 4.7 pH reading may indicate that this beer will finish a bit tart.

While I appreciate the simplicity of the Water Primer's recommendations, you might consider trying out Bru'n Water to better assess when and if you need to add acidity or alkalinity to your mashes in the future.
 
A target mash pH of 5.2 is only desirable if you are measuring that pH at mash temperature. We typically discuss mash pH at room temperature measurement. In this case, that 5.2 mash temperature pH would likely be somewhere around 5.4 to 5.5 at room temperature. I can vouch that a 5.2 room temperature mash pH produces a somewhat tart and overly acidic finished beer. Still drinkable, just not as enjoyable. Aim for a 5.4 to 5.5 room temperature mash pH in the future. Do recognize that pH strips tend to report pH about 0.3 units lower than if measured properly with a pH meter. The 4.7 pH reading may indicate that this beer will finish a bit tart.

Thank you for the explanation. I do not yet have the knowledge about the various affects of grain on the PH. That is why I was using the primer and the guidance within. So I may be okay since at mash temp I was at 4.7. In theory I was likely at 5.3ish (+.6 between temp change and error factor of strips).
 
So I did a Boddingtons Clone using the RO water. The ingredients were:

46.2 4.50 lbs. English Pale 2-row Malt 1.038
15.4 1.00 lbs. Toasted Malt(2-row) America 1.033
7.7 0.50 lbs. Brown Sugar Generic 1.046
7.7 0.50 lbs. Cara-Pils Dextrine Malt 1.033
7.7 0.50 lbs. Crystal 60L America 1.034
7.7 0.50 lbs. Flaked Oats America 1.033
7.7 0.50 lbs. Flaked Wheat America 1.034

I made the recommended adjustments to my water for an English style ale and added 1 tsp gypsum and 1 tsp calcium chloride (per 5 gal treated) plus the sauermalz - 2 % of the total weight of the other grains. I took a mash reading using the cheap strips and was at 4.7. I know this is low (if I am shooting for 5.2). My efficiency was low as expected based on the low PH. So my questions are:

Is a PH of 4.7 low because of the style I am shooting for and therefor on track?

No, that's too low but a reading taken with strips is pretty much useless. They usually read 0.3 low but have been reported to read less than that.

Should I have added additional gypsum to hit 5.2?

No. Additional calcium will lower pH.

Should I add less sauermalz next time?
Definitely. If you read 4.7 with strips the actual pH was probably close to 5 which is too low.

Remember that the Primer is supposed to be exactly that - something to get you started. The hope is that you will obtain a pH meter and take mash pH measurements basing you treatment on what those readings tell you. 2% - 3% works in most, but not all cases because there is great variability in malt acidity, recipes etc. As the odds of having mash pH too high are greater than having it too low the largest number of brewers can be served by adding some acid. But it can go the other way. Following the Primer or doing anything else that doesn't involve pH measurement is a bit of a crap shoot.

Can this PH of 4.7 help me establish a baseline for future water additions?

No. Given that it is from strips it's worthless. Now if you read 5.3 on a meter you can say "Ah - that's a bit low. I'd prefer to be at 5.4." and knock off 1 % of the sauermalz based on that.
 
Thank you all. I will add a PH meter to my list of crap I get yelled at for buying to brew beer that my wife drinks as much of as I do. More question likely to follow.
 
I think I can say with mathematical certitude that there is a correlation between RA and SRM but that it is so weak (Pearson's r is small) that there is little justification for using color to determine a "required" RA. John Palmer, who came up with the idea, says the same thing but no one seems to want to acknowledge this.

Has John Palmer reversed his position on this? Has he stated this anywhere in print? I don't think his water ep's of Brew Strong corrected this.
 
John posted to another forum as long as perhaps a year and a half ago that the SRM/RA thing is "a hand wave at best" which really says the same thing as "Pearson's r is small".
 
I've been a religious user of TH's EZ Water Spreadsheet for several years. I stumbled on this thread because I was having a heck of a time trying to get the calculated mash pH correct for a hefeweizen without using an insane amount of salts.

Now that I've read all 22 pages, my (water adjustment) world has turned upside down and my head is spinning. :drunk: And I'm still not confident I know how to treat the water for my hefeweizen.

If I'm following correctly, I would use 100% DI/RO (10 gallons) and treat it with 3.3g calcium chloride anhydride. This is based on the recommendation of 1 tsp calcium chloride dihydrate per 5 gallons (5g per teaspoon) halve that amount for soft water beers, and 2/3 the amount for anhydride.

I would then add up to 3% sauermalz based on a pH reading at mash time (I will have colorpHast strips, but not a meter available) to get into the 5.3 range.

Any feedback on this? My understanding is that I need not be concerned about the low levels of other minerals?

Ideally I would like to use my tap water and make adjustments from there, but I don't yet grasp what I'm trying to adjust to, or what negative impacts my adjustments might have.

My water profile:
Ca - 35
Mg - 11
Na - 28
Cl - 50
SO4 - 87
HCO3 - 34
 
You have the basic concept right but do not rely on pH strips as indicators of pH. Your goal is mash pH in the proper range and your biggest adversary in meeting that goal is variability in materials (malts). That is why no spreadsheet or primer can guarantee you an optimum mash pH.

Looking at your water profile I'm guessing that you could make a good wheat beer with it were it not for the high sulfate level. So I'd cut it 5:1 and then go with the tsp of calcium chloride. We are not really at the level here where whether it's the dihydrate or anhydride makes much difference and no one really seems to know what's in the calcium chloride sold by the LHBSs. So just 5 grams or a tsp per 5 gal should serve.

In looking back over my brewing notes I found that Weizens had more variability in mash pH than anything else I brew and I blame that on malt/wheat variation so this is a style where a pH meter is really important if you want to control mash pH. OTOH wheat beer seems to be pretty tolerant of variation. You probably could make it with your water without any adjustment at all if you went light on the hops.
 
Thanks AJ for the response, it is much appreciated. I definitely plan on getting a meter as soon as the budget allows. I assumed the strips would be (barely) better than nothing.

Couldn't get sauermalz at the LHBS so I'll be using Lactic Acid. The hops are fairly light IMO, one addition for 13 IBU.

I find myself still going back to the spreadsheet with the concern that it shows my mash pH for this recipe at 5.53 even with 10g CaCl and 3% sauermalz added. So, throwing the spreadsheet aside, what would I do with a mash that was still at a high pH even though I'd reached the practical limit of adding sauermalz / lactic acid? Or is this simply a good example of where the spreadsheet fails?
 
when mashing, is it normal to have a ph at the start of the mash be low, say around 4.8-4.9, then rise as time goes by? the last couple brews we mashed in and measured at 5 minutes, ph was 4.8-9. half way through the mash it was around 5.2-3. 45 minutes in, mash was 5.6-8. all measurements taken at room temp, using acid malt. only difference was biab, so 7.5 gallons of water.
 
I find myself still going back to the spreadsheet with the concern that it shows my mash pH for this recipe at 5.53 even with 10g CaCl and 3% sauermalz added. So, throwing the spreadsheet aside, what would I do with a mash that was still at a high pH even though I'd reached the practical limit of adding sauermalz / lactic acid? Or is this simply a good example of where the spreadsheet fails?

If the "high" pH were 5.53 I wouldn't worry about it. That is low enough. If it were appreciably higher than that I would check the pH meter. If the pH meter checked out I would check the DI pH of the sauermalz i.e. I would suspect that it wasn't very sauer (acid).

Based on looking back over my notes on wheat beers accumulated over the years I would say that their mash pH is hard to predict. Therefore, if a spreadsheet's prediction turns out to be off somewhat I would call it a limitation rather than a failure.
 
when mashing, is it normal to have a ph at the start of the mash be low, say around 4.8-4.9, then rise as time goes by? the last couple brews we mashed in and measured at 5 minutes, ph was 4.8-9. half way through the mash it was around 5.2-3. 45 minutes in, mash was 5.6-8. all measurements taken at room temp, using acid malt. only difference was biab, so 7.5 gallons of water.

Yes, a rise over time is quite normal with acid malt.
 
Yes, a rise over time is quite normal with acid malt.

ok, so where abouts in the mash should i be shooting for 5.4-5.6? half way? first 10 minutes? i do not see how any adjustments could be made on the fly when the mash is changing the whole time?
 
ok, so where abouts in the mash should i be shooting for 5.4-5.6? half way? first 10 minutes? i do not see how any adjustments could be made on the fly when the mash is changing the whole time?

Just went back and re-read your post more carefully. It is normal for the pH to rise but not to continue rising. It should level off after 20 minutes or so and then remain constant at that level. If it keeps going then something is out of kilter. Given that the reading got as high as 5.8 I suspect the meter. The mash pH without any sauermalz might get as high as that but with sauermalz it would definitely be lower. I have noticed that the less expensive pH meters tend to drift. I recommend a pH check (measurement of both buffers) immediately after calibration and every hour or so to be sure that the meter isn't drifting. If it is recalibrate.
 
ok, so where abouts in the mash should i be shooting for 5.4-5.6? half way? first 10 minutes? i do not see how any adjustments could be made on the fly when the mash is changing the whole time?

Just went back and re-read your post more carefully. It is normal for the pH to rise but not to continue rising. It should level off after 20 minutes or so and then remain constant at that level. If it keeps going then something is out of kilter. Given that the reading got as high as 5.8 I suspect the meter. The mash pH without any sauermalz might get as high as that but with sauermalz it would definitely be lower. I have noticed that the less expensive pH meters tend to drift. I recommend a pH check (measurement of both buffers) immediately after calibration and every hour or so to be sure that the meter isn't drifting. If it is recalibrate.

I have the same concerns regarding the rising ph and how to take it into account. Is it the 20 minute stable ph when we're shooting for 5.4-5.6? Also, at what point would you adjust with additional sauermalz due to a high ph? Would we adjust early taking in to account an approximate rise (around .5?) once stabilized, or do we need to wait 20 minutes before adjusting?

If it takes 20 minutes to determine whether to adjust it, then another 20 for additional sauermalz to stabilize, we're only looking at maybe a third of the time left at our stable target ph assuming an hour mash. Is that OK, or is this fine tuning primarily for future batches of the same recipe?
 
I have the same concerns regarding the rising ph and how to take it into account. Is it the 20 minute stable ph when we're shooting for 5.4-5.6?

Yes.

Also, at what point would you adjust with additional sauermalz due to a high ph? Would we adjust early...

I'd say yes as if there is no sauermalz initially the pH will stabilize pretty fast and if there is sauermalz initially the pH is only going to go higher over time.


If it takes 20 minutes to determine whether to adjust it, then another 20 for additional sauermalz to stabilize, we're only looking at maybe a third of the time left at our stable target ph assuming an hour mash. Is that OK, or is this fine tuning primarily for future batches of the same recipe?

It is, clearly, somewhat less that ideal and so you are absolutely right that what you are really doing is trying to get yourself well positioned for the next brew. Even when you get "dialed in" you will occasionally get a surprise because malts do vary. So it is always wise to have some acid and some alkali handy.

One way around this is to do a test mash before each brew i.e. mash a pound or so of the grist and see where its pH comes out.
 
This is brilliant! I know it's extremely silly for me to be concerning myself over water chemistry after brewing only one batch of beer, but I can't help myself. I love immersing myself in hobbies and really understanding the complexities. This has helped so much with relieving the anxiety brought to me by water chemistry. I expect to expand from this, but for the time being I actually feel like I can brew another batch without feeling guilty.

P.S. I have been searching this forum endlessly for information, especially on water chemistry. I just want to thank AJ for sharing the endless amount of information that he has acquired regarding this subject. It is really a great thing you're doing!

Thanks,

Pat
 
I expect to expand from this,
This is the beauty of the primer. Lots of us were suffering information overload when it came to water chemistry. Suddenly we had a 'start here' that didn't involve spending $40 to have our water tested (a moving target for those of us that get reservoir water) and then trying to adjust that to various competing water profiles. I haven't 'advanced' past it because I'm getting better beer and haven't felt the need to dump lots of other stuff into my brewing water.
 
Can someone please confirm that I did this correctly. I'm using all RO water, so my minerals are all extremely low. Also, I'm not a hop fan, so I wanted this balanced more towards maltiness rather than bitterness. Here's the recipe I'm brewing:

Code:
9 lbs 12.8 oz        Pale Malt (2 Row) US
1 lbs 3.0 oz         Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L
12.9 oz              Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L
7.2 oz               Caramel Malt - 90L
0.55 oz              Cascade [7.50 %] - Boil 60.0 min
1.00 Items           Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 mins)
0.83 oz              Saaz [5.80 %] - Boil 15.0 min
1.0 pkg              German Ale/Kolsch (White Labs #WLP029)

Batch Size (fermenter): 5.50 gal
Boil Size: 8.10 gal
Boil Time: 60 min
End of Boil Volume 6.50 gal
Brewhouse Efficiency: 65.00 %

Est Original Gravity: 1.052 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.010 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.5 %
Bitterness: 21.6 IBUs
Est Color: 13.6 SRM

Strike water: 3.83gal
Sparge water: 5.98gal

And here's what I've figured for my water additions:
http://pensphreak.com/homebrew/Altbier-water.jpeg

1.3g/2.0g Gypsum (mash/sparge)
1.9g/3.0g Calcium Chloride (mash/sparge)
1oz 2% Acidulated Malt
 
Guys: Great thread and very useful for me because I have some reasonably high bicarbonate in my water. It's great for beers from 12 to 17 SRM. But to make a pilsner, helles, american wheat, blonde, cream ale, kolsch or other pale-colored beer, I have to dilute with RO. I'm hoping AJ or Martin can respond to something that I saw in BruNWater: The American Lager water profile. It shows relatively low numbers (like 20ppm calcium) but also 37ppm sulfate with only 13ppm chloride. I'm curious how a beer in this style benefits from a profile (which EZ_Water would describe as good for VERY BITTER beer) like this. Is it possible that American Lagers are made with water like this which would accentuate hoppiness and then the breweries use very low hopping rates so that there is a perceived bitterness? The low calcium seems unusual but I know that AJ says that he has been using RO with no or low additions so it seems doable. Does clarity suffer with such a low calcium number? What additions would one make if using 100% RO water for something like an American Lager or BoPils? Thanks guys... again, great discussion.
 
Comments on the philosophy behind the Bru'n water profile obviously should be left to Martin.

As a general comment though it seems that commercial operations are discovering that beers brewed with softer water sell better (or they may have known this for a long time). Certainly one of the qualities of the Bohemian Pilsners which served as the model for the German Pilsners which served as the model for the American Lagers is that the water with which they are brewed is atypically soft. A sulfate level of 37 would certainly be too high for a Bohemian Pils and the reason for this is that it would destroy the perception of fine bitterness that one pays a premium for when he uses noble hops. But there is no perception of hops bitterness, fine or otherwise, in American lagers (there used to be but no more). The hops are still there, sort of like the violas in a orchestra - you don't hear them but the piece wouldn't sound right if they weren't there. Thus, at the just at threshold or just below threshold hopping levels of American lagers the higher sulfate should not hurt.

The impression of softness (smoothness) in the sort of lagers under discussion here comes from low mineral content which, IMO, works in couple of ways. First, there is no minerally quality. Second the hops bitterness, though perceptible, in fact quite perceptible in some styles, is fine. There is an interesting twist though. Chloride, at modest levels, enhances the impression of smoothness, roundness, sweetness. So I have been adding calcium chloride to my lager water not to increase calcium but to increase chloride. The Primer reflects this. The extra calcium doesn't hurt any however. Now the increased calcium is at about the 35 mg/L level (which puts the chloride at about 65 mg/L) which would be considered low by those who feel that 50 ppm is an absolute minimum. But no, there is no detriment to brewing lagers at that level. I used to brew them at levels much lower than that. I went to the higher calcium level because I wanted oxalate to precipitate in the lagering vessel, not my kidneys, and found that the chloride effect was a big plus. Clarity does not suffer because you lager these beers. One thing I did find interesting was that dropping clear was influenced greatly by controlling mash pH.
 
AJ: Thanks for responding. Yes, I have been paying particularly close attention to mash pH because I am a clear-beer freak and I know that it plays an important part. Yesterday I made a beer in this style (OG 1.050, SRM 3-4, IBUs 25, WLP840, Liberty hops) and used 75% RO water along with CaCl and a small amount of gypsum. Lactic acid in the mash to get the pH lower. I notice that beer flavors are much more pleasing with the softer water. It's almost as if the bicarbonate acts like a smoke screen on your tastebuds and the softer water brings out a much clearer perception of the flavors in the beer, especially hops but also anything else you might use in the grain bill like Vienna or Munich. So if I were to make a BoPils with 100% RO water, could you see just adding very small additions like 1g gypsum, maybe 2g CaCl and a pinch of epsom salt (for Mg) and having very low numbers across the board and then adjusting mash pH with lactic acid? When I see these minimums in the spreadsheets, I take them for the word of the Lord but maybe they can be dismissed like the Cl:SO ratio. Thanks again and cheers to you for making our beer better.
 
2 grams calcium chloride per 5 gallons water treated is about the level I use and it works well. I don't use any gypsum at all because to my taste the less sulfate the better. Traces minerals I get by blending back about 10% of my well water which is pretty typical. It's not really necessary to do that because the malt contains plenty of magnesium, for example, to serve as enzyme co factor.

Adjusting pH with lactic acid works very well but try sauermalz sometime. It adds more to the beer than just acid.
 
I do have acidulated malt on hand and I have used that as well. I will design another beer that incorporates it and compare the properties. As an aside, I noticed earlier in the thread that there was some conversation about when the flavors from acid malt were detectable. I have not used it extensively enough but another local brewer made his Sam Adams Longshot-winning kolsch recipe three times... once with 4 ounces of acid malt in a 5 gallon batch and he said it was undetectable. Then he made it with 8 ounces (not sure on the percentages here) and it was too much. He concluded that 6 ounces was the perfect amount and he did get a little 'tang' from it. If the 4 ounces was added to say... 10lbs of pilsner malt, the acid malt % would be 2.4%, 6 ounces would be 3.7% and 8 ounces would be 4.8%. Thanks again for the primer. This was a great thread... I had to clear my calendar to read the whole thing but worth it! Cheers.
 
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