Large yeast starter and timing for decanting

Finally fed up with my small flask (500 ml) I bought a 2l flask that I will use for the starter on my next batch. I am brewing on a Saturday and my plan is to make a 1.5l starter ahead of time. I am going to be pitching a single vial of white labs yeast into 1.5l of starter wort and using a stir plate. That being said, I have some questions:

1. I'd like to cold crash the starter so that I can pour off the starter beer. Is taking the beer off the stir plate Friday night after work, refrigerating overnight, then pulling it out of the fridge Saturday morning before I brew going to give me enough lead time to drop most of the yeast out of suspension? (I'll be using the white labs american hefe if my LHBS has it. Since it's an American wheat/rye, I will use Calif ale if I cannot get the American hefe)

2. If cold crashing Friday is my goal, when should I make the starter and pitch the vial for optimum yeast growth? Is Monday too early? Is Wednesday too late?

There is no too early, only too late.
12 hours in the fridge should be fine, but any time up to 2 weeks ahead will be fine.

I usually make my starter Wednesday evening and put it in the fridge Friday evening.
Take it out Saturday morning, decant, and let it warm up before pitching.

Getting hefe strains to floccate is hard (at least for me). I'd be sure to use the lightest DME for the starter you can find, and cold crash as long as possible. In the same vein, I'd start your starter as soon as possible to maximize your cold crashing time. If you're using WLP001 Wednesday is fine for a Saturday brew day, that's what I usually do with that one myself.

i find that to get a good decant, you need at least 2 days of good cold crashing. it totally depends on the yeast strain, but that has been my experience. otherwise, i can only get about half the starter wort off before i'm pouring out good yeast.

livErD69 said:

Getting hefe strains to floccate is hard (at least for me). I'd be sure to use the lightest DME for the starter you can find, and cold crash as long as possible. In the same vein, I'd start your starter as soon as possible to maximize your cold crashing time. If you're using WLP001 Wednesday is fine for a Saturday brew day, that's what I usually do with that one myself.

Click to expand...

Wound up with the hefe yeast and will be making the starter tonight. Would Thursday night be too soon to take it off the stir plate and cold crash for a saturday brew day? Will 48 hours give it enough time to grow to a reasonable level before the cold crash?

What's the OG of your beer going to be? As long as it's not over 1.070ish I'd think 48 hours is plenty on a stir plate.

winvarin said:

Wound up with the hefe yeast and will be making the starter tonight. Would Thursday night be too soon to take it off the stir plate and cold crash for a saturday brew day? Will 48 hours give it enough time to grow to a reasonable level before the cold crash?

Click to expand...

Yes, 48 hours is more than enough time on the stir plate unless the yeast doesnt get started right away.

I used the WLP 320 and made a 1.5l starter last night. Actually, my flask has markings at 1200 and 1600 ml so I think my final volume after boiling the starter wort is closer to 1300 ml.

I put it on the stir plate around 11 last night. When I checked on it this morning (6:45 am) the stir plate was whirling away and the wort was murky as expected. But the airlock was flat and there were no bubbles on the surface of the starter. I have a lot of headspace in this 2l flask but I expected to at least see something.

The best by date on the vial is November 2010. I let it warm to room temp for about 3 hours before I pitched it into a starter at 70F.

Should I actually see active fermentation in a starter this size? I can't judge by the trub on the bottom since there is none (wlp320 is a low flocctuator of course).

Putting an airlock on a stirred starter is counter-productive. The stir plate does two things: keeps the yeast in suspension and continually oxygenates the wort, which encourages healthier and faster reproduction. Given that your yeast is already a low flocculator (i.e., #1 isn't a concern for you), it's almost pointless to be using the stir plate unless you have an oxygen-permeable cap on it. A loose foil cap or an upside-down beaker with spacers (as described in http://www.primetab.com/yeaststarter.html ) is going to give better results than an airlock.

To address your question more directly, I've had starters with no visible krausen and I've had starters go absolutely crazy (harvested yeast from Delirium Tremens made 3+ inches of krausen in my 2L Erlenmeyer flask!). The gravity will tell you what's going on...

I have another question on this starter. I just checked it a few min ago (for those of you who don't want to read all the way to the top, this is a 1.3L starter of WLP320 that has now been at approx 70F for 48 hours).

Never had a krausen and since it's on a stir plate, everything looks the same color. Anything that is in there is completely suspended. I opened the lid to take a whiff. I expected to smell the tangy, alcohol/yeasty smell that I usually get from a single vial of yeast.

To my surprise, it still smelled fairly malty. I did the 10/1 water to dried malt ratio suggested for yeast starters in brewing classic styles. I added 1/8 tsp of yeast nutrient as well and it has been on the stir plate in a dark room for the full 2 days.

Best by date on the vial is November of 2010

A couple of questions:

1. There was no off smell, but I certainly did not get the strong yeast smell that I was expecting. How can I tell if I have viable yeast growth?

2. SHould I stop by the LHBS on my way home tomorrow and get a packet of Safeale 5 tomorrow just in case I don't get a start on Saturday when I brew? I had hoped for the American Hefe character but this is a rye/wheat beer and the dried Safeale should still produce a decent beer.

3. If I get the Safeale, should I just use that and abandon this starter? I get no infection or other off aromas from it. I just don't get yeast.

4. After 48 hours on the stirplate, my plan was to cold crash it tonight since this is a wheat yeast. That would give me 48 hours to cold crash. Should I leave it another 24 hours on the stir plate to give it some more growth time and then just count on a 24 hour cold crash?

I appreciate the suggestions guys. This is my first adventure into big starter territory. A lot of times I just get lazy and double pitch. I wanted to try to grow my own this time

You're not smelling a vial of yeast, you're smelling flat beer. The stir plate is on to facillitate oxygen transfer and aerate the wort - which means the air in the flask (or wahtever) is circulating all the time and any smells the yeast kicks off won't stick around very long.

The yeast is in suspension - turn the stir plate off and you'll see some settle out, and it'll be more than you put in. You can give it another shot of fresh wort without the stir plate on if you want to see it in action and reassure yourself, but I don't think you'll need to once you let it settle for a bit.

You should pick up a pack of dry yeast on your way home tomorrow just because something like 05 or Notty is good to have around in case anything at all comes up and you don't want to learn that lesson after a long day of brewing when all the shops are closed.

Thanks for the quick reply. Do you think I am good to cold crash it tonight or should I give it some more time on the plate?

As it's a wheat yeast, I would like to cold crash as long as I can before pitching

Put it in the fridge so that when you wake up in the morning you can see that it's nice and healthy and have a great day at work.

So here's an interesting development. I just went up before bed to get the starter off the stirplate and put it in the fridge. I had done a considerable amount of shaking and swirling earlier when I was looking for activity.

I now have a thin layer of krausen and some bubbles through my not suggested airlock.

I guess I will let it go overnight and have my wife move it to the fridge mid-day tomorrow.

I pretty much use a 2 liter starter as my default size, I use 1 gallon jugs to prepare my starters. I start my starters with 1 quart exactly 1 week before brew day and step them up to two liters or more within 5 days. I give two days of cold crashing, brew and pitch COLD yeast. Rarely does it take more than 5 hours for me to get active fermentation using this method.....

I use a three piece airlock in my starters, but I mosey on down to my brew room at least 10 times a day, remove the airlock and shake the crap out of the starter. I get tons of nice, creamy white yeast after five days.

Also, I use a mix of yeast nutrient and yeast energizer in all my starters....

Yeast must not have been quite as fresh as the vial indicated. By this morning I had full krausen on the starter. I did take a whiff and the malty smell has been replaced by the aroma I associate with wheat yeasts. Letting it go at ambient temp off the stir plate today (Friday) and will cold crash tonight. My plans have changed and I won't be brewing until Sunday. That should give me plenty of time to get as much of this yeast as I can to drop out.

Last question on this one. It was a wheat yeast so prone to go back into suspension easily. In a 1.3l starter, I was able to decant a little more than 500ml before the yeast really started mixing in. With just shy of 800 ml in the flask, it started to mix to the point that I was worrying that I was pouring away good yeast, so I just said RDWHAHB and swirled and pitched the 800 ml.

The smell was fine, so I am not worried about anything bad getting into the yeast, except the starter beer. It was about 800 ml of mixed yeast and starter beer made from light dry extract.

Am I risking off flavors with that much starter beer going into my main batch? There wasn't much I could do to prevent it with the strain I was using.

For my recent starter, I pitched 2 vials of WLP 001 and got nary a bubble after days (and nary a point of change on the refrac)

It was 100% unviable yeast. BMW replaced free. Thanks BMW.

This yeast is certainly viable. I had noticeable activity within 5 hrs. Full, vigorous blow-off ferment within 8. I'm concerned that pitching 800 ml of slurry mixed with starter beer will cause flavor issues. Any thoughts?

It won't be a problem. You pitched a volume that's <5% of your batch, so you've already attenuated any off flavors by a factor of >20 (OK, it's not as if taste perception is a linear thing...). Beyond that, the yeast are busily reproducing and throwing all manner of off flavor compounds into the beer right now, and in a few days when they've finished the early stages of fermentation they'll go back and clean them up---along with those that came in the starter beer.