Help me make a good hoppy beer

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Coastarine

Coastarine

We get it, you hate BMC.
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My hoppy beers have never been up to snuff the way my other beers have. My malty beers and belgian beers have always been much better. Back in Pittsburgh I made a double IPA that turned out pretty good, but my last attempt at an APA (northern brewer's extra pale ale) is only so-so. Maybe I mucked with the recipe too much (in my infinite wisdom I switched up the hop schedule entirely so that instead of 1oz cascade at 60, 30, and 5, I did 1oz FWH, 1oz 15, and 1oz dry)

Right now I'm drinking a Bell's Two Hearted and honestly to me it is the best IPA ever made. I love this stuff.

First of all, I've now gotten my fermentation temperatures down from 70-72 to 66-68 where I'd really like them. The only other thing I can think of is water. I currently mix in 1 tbs of 5/2 stabilizer with the strike water just before dough in. My water report gives no useful info to brewing that I can see. Should I do something different from the 5/2 for an IPA? What say you?
 
You could try adding Burton crystals. They bring out a kind of crispness in hoppy beers, though I believe they're only really useful if your water is soft.
 
The first thing that came to my mind was "water". In my case, my water is hard, but I know nothing else. The water department told me, "You don't need a water report- it's safe to drink little lady! But it is very hard.". Um, yeah, thanks. I'm going to order my own testing, but until then............

Anyway, because my water is hard, I believe my IPAs and APAs are kick ass. My blondes and Belgians, not so much. They tend to be more astringent than I want.

I'm just wondering if your current water is softer than your previous supply. If that's the case, the 5.2 stabilizer won't harden it.
 
I'll send a sample to ward labs today. I thought it was more expensive and I move a lot, but really it isn't much money and it would be really nice to know.
 
If you subbed 60 minute hops for FWH you are going to get almost no bittering. FWHs are equivilent to 20 minute hops as far as bittering they're used mostly for flavor/aroma.
 
TeleTwanger said:
If you subbed 60 minute hops for FWH you are going to get almost no bittering. FWHs are equivilent to 20 minute hops as far as bittering they're used mostly for flavor/aroma.
Click to expand...
AFAIK, FWH gives slightly more IBUs than a 60-minute addition, according to BeerSmith, but it's perceived as being a less harsh bitterness. I guess it depends what you're after - I tend to FWH most of my brews, but I've never quite managed to recreate the kick-your-f'kin-teeth-in bitterness of the IPAs I really like. So for my next batch of IPA I'm going with a much larger than standard 60-minute addition to see if that helps.
 
TeleTwanger said:
If you subbed 60 minute hops for FWH you are going to get almost no bittering. FWHs are equivilent to 20 minute hops as far as bittering they're used mostly for flavor/aroma.
Click to expand...

I did some reading on FWH before I did that and the results seemed to be described as "a more complex bitterness" or just flavors that married better. It seemed to me that since the hops were still in for the 60 minutes, the alpha acids were still isomerized but the magic of FWH was that the flavor and aroma somehow aren't boiled away. Either way it is something I haven't even begun to master/understand so I probably won't tinker with it again for a while. The reading I did also indicated that it was intended for and originally used in pilsners.

So here's my plan: Get my water analyzed, figure out what if any water treatment I need, find a good two-hearted clone recipe, actually follow the recipe, and ferment it at 66-68. Ready? Break.
 
I would just use more hops. I've never over hopped an extract batch like one can with all grain. When I would do extracts I would rate my 60 minute hops at 20% or lower. So for that rating 1 oz 60, 1 oz 30, 1 oz 15 for cascades @7%aa youd be at around 31ibus. I like my APAs over 35ibus and ipas around 50-60.
 
TeleTwanger said:
I would just use more hops. I've never over hopped an extract batch like one can with all grain. When I would do extracts I would rate my 60 minute hops at 20% or lower. So for that rating 1 oz 60, 1 oz 30, 1 oz 15 for cascades @7%aa youd be at around 31ibus. I like my APAs over 35ibus and ipas around 50-60.
Click to expand...

Wait I'm confused...how did we get talking about extract? This was an AG extra pale ale. My cascades were only 6.3%, but with that hop schedule and set to tinseth, my beersmith gives 56 IBU.
 
Excessively high bicarobonates are not good for hoppy beers. If your water report is not of any use I would recommend getting a water analysis done, or switch to bottled water + salts for brewing hoppy beers until you know for sure.

Our municipal water source recently changed, so I'm about to send a sample off to Ward this week myself.
 
Coastarine said:
My hoppy beers have never been up to snuff the way my other beers have. My malty beers and belgian beers have always been much better. Back in Pittsburgh I made a double IPA that turned out pretty good, but my last attempt at an APA (northern brewer's extra pale ale) is only so-so. Maybe I mucked with the recipe too much (in my infinite wisdom I switched up the hop schedule entirely so that instead of 1oz cascade at 60, 30, and 5, I did 1oz FWH, 1oz 15, and 1oz dry)

Right now I'm drinking a Bell's Two Hearted and honestly to me it is the best IPA ever made. I love this stuff.
Click to expand...

So is it not bitter enough, not hoppy enough, or both?

The answer may be different depending on your answer.
If not bitter enough get some higher AA hops, and if not enough flavor try something like my https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f66/fat-owl-pale-ale-55221/
 
wildwest450 said:
Do yourself a favor and brew this https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f69/bee-cave-brewery-ipa-59907/ don't change anything it will be great. I have got nothing but rave reviews from everyone who has tried this beer. Ed Wort rules.
Click to expand...

To me this beer does not have enough hops, I would go even bigger if you really like hoppy beers. My last brew had this hop bill and I still want to make it bigger:
1 oz Galena (13.1%) - added during boil, boiled 75.0 min
1 oz Columbus (14.80%) - added during boil, boiled 15.0 min
1 oz Columbus (13.50%) - added during boil, boiled 5 min
1 oz Columbus (12.2%) - added during boil, boiled 1.0 min
1 oz Columbus (12.2%) - added dry to secondary fermenter
 
As someone else mentioned, I think the issue is with the FWH and no 60 minute addition of hops.

Here's a good summary and I'm sure there is more info on the forum for FWH.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/first-wort-hopping-white-paper-sort-50941/

The way I have interpreted FWH is that you leave your 60 min addition where it is. You take the bulk of your late additions (i.e. 15 min, 5 min, etc.) and use those as FWH. The bitterness (IBUs) that the FWH hops impart is equivalent to a 20 minute addition. That alone won't be near enough bitterness.

From that article and some other posts, although the FWH increases the IBUs in addition to the 60 min addition, the perceived bitterness is smoother.

I am going to go out in my garage and force carb my Amarillo APA, my first FWH attempt. I kept the 60 min addition on this one though so I'm interested to see how the bitterness comes across.
 
If you're looking for a big hop flavor and aroma, try going with all late addition hops. Some time back I brewed an all-Simcoe American Amber with 1 oz. pellets at 20, 10 and flameout. Beersmith tells me I got 46 IBU, and my tongue tells me the hop flavor is HUGE but the bitterness is subtle and not harsh at all. I think this is becoming my new favorite homebrew recipe.
 
Trencher said:
If you're looking for a big hop flavor and aroma, try going with all late addition hops. Some time back I brewed an all-Simcoe American Amber with 1 oz. pellets at 20, 10 and flameout. Beersmith tells me I got 46 IBU, and my tongue tells me the hop flavor is HUGE but the bitterness is subtle and not harsh at all. I think this is becoming my new favorite homebrew recipe.
Click to expand...
I don't think that's the answer. I'm looking for a more traditional, tried and true method over the shorten-your-calf-muscles-by-two-inches-to-theoretically-increase-your-jumping-ability experimental new method. If it made a good beer for you, I'm glad, but that's not what I'm comfortable doing yet.
 
Brew-boy said:
To me this beer does not have enough hops, I would go even bigger if you really like hoppy beers. My last brew had this hop bill and I still want to make it bigger:
Click to expand...

Have you ever tried the recipe?? Not every recipe needs to be mega ibu's.
 
Coastarine said:
I don't think that's the answer. I'm looking for a more traditional, tried and true method over the shorten-your-calf-muscles-by-two-inches-to-theoretically-increase-your-jumping-ability experimental new method. If it made a good beer for you, I'm glad, but that's not what I'm comfortable doing yet.
Click to expand...

Why not? this method is tried and true. I've done it and it came out great. Jamil says it's the secret to big hop flavor and aroma.

Also, go to this website: http://www.basicbrewing.com/index.php?page=video

and look for these episodes:

October 10, 2007 - 15-minute Amarillo Ale and June 20, 2006 - Playing with Hops

Here's a link to a thread containing my last recipe in which I used 4 ozs of hops within the last 20 minutes of the boil. Came out great!
 
According to Jamil, the real secret to making a good IPA is drying out the beer. The show is about IIPA's but I see merit in considering this tactic in IPA's as well.

If you can get the beer to finish really low it will accentuate the hop profile much better than upping the hops & malt. Adding a little corn sugar really helps dry out the beer nicely, but only in small proportions, say, ~2-3% of the fermentables.

Give it a download, I love listening to his episodes. The hop schedule is pretty ridiculous, but it's a clone of a mighty fine IPA.
 
Trencher said:
If you're looking for a big hop flavor and aroma, try going with all late addition hops. Some time back I brewed an all-Simcoe American Amber with 1 oz. pellets at 20, 10 and flameout. Beersmith tells me I got 46 IBU, and my tongue tells me the hop flavor is HUGE but the bitterness is subtle and not harsh at all. I think this is becoming my new favorite homebrew recipe.
Click to expand...

I LOVE late hop IPA... I am planning to do this myself with my hop monster.

One of the guys in the local club did a 20 minute IPA with 9oz of hops, it totally rocked and won several medals.
 
I'd like to try late hop additions only too. I think it will work, Stone does it and they know hoppy beer.
 
Coastarine said:
I don't think that's the answer. I'm looking for a more traditional, tried and true method over the shorten-your-calf-muscles-by-two-inches-to-theoretically-increase-your-jumping-ability experimental new method. If it made a good beer for you, I'm glad, but that's not what I'm comfortable doing yet.
Click to expand...

OH, it's tried and true alright. Expensive, luxurious, delicious and widely accepted as a valid method; hardly remedial. Maybe not for everybody though.
 
I'm not sure if your still looking for a Two Hearted clone but here is one that I found Bells Two Hearted IPA Recipe ::: Brew365 - Homebrewing Recipes and Articles I haven't made it and we don't get Bell's beers in Oklahoma :( but it looks like a decent IPA recipe. I have had the best luck getting big hop aromas in my IPAs by using 1.5-2 oz of hops per 5 gallons right at flameout and then cooling the wort down as quickly as possible. I've completely quit using 5 minute additions for aroma because in my experience even with only 5 minutes of boiling I lose a lot of the aroma.
 
I'm making the bee cave IPA. I buy from Northern Brewer and they, like most people, don't have Warrior hops (14-16%AA). I'm substituting the same HBU's (probably ~2oz) in Amarillo (6-9%AA) as Ed suggests.
 
Water analysis is in!

pH:...............................7.1
sodium:.......................<1 ppm
potassium:...................<1 ppm
Calcium:........................13 ppm
Magnesium:..................<1 ppm
Total Hardness (CaCO3):..37 ppm
Nitrate:.........................0.1 ppm
Sulfate:.......................<1 ppm
Chloride:........................3 ppm
Carbonate (CO3):..........<1 ppm
Bicarbonate (HCO3):........12 ppm
Alkalinity (CaCO3):..........10 ppm

Comparing my numbers to this http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter15-1.html looks like my water could use some help.
 
Alright, I've been messing around in beersmith with my water profile and with these mineral additions I can come pretty darn close to burton on trent:

17g Gypsum
9g Epsom Salt
.5g Calcium Cholride
5g Baking Soda
3g chalk

They always told me science was fun!

Edit: as I keep reading, though, I might want to reign in some things like the SO4. "At concentrations over 400 ppm however, the resulting bitterness can become astringent and unpleasant, and at concentrations over 750 ppm, it can cause diarrhea."
 
And here we are with no additives. Very soft water:
Milton_Water.JPG


Seems to me that most minerals in my water are below range for most any beer according to palmer, but if you had to pick the best thing for my water, it would be very low IBU and very pale in color. Oh! malt liqour!
 
After some more reading I'm trying to come up with a target water for my IPA, and here's what I've got so far combining some trends that I see in various city water profiles with what John Palmer says about each mineral:

Ca:.....150
Mg:.....30
Na:.....55
SO4:...350
Cl:......25
HCO3:.200

Ca, Mg, and HCO3 from Palmers ranges and the color of most IPA's placed on the above graphic. High sulfate for the high IBU's. Sound good?

To get that I'd add:
7.8g Gypsum
0.3g table salt
5.8g epsom salt
0.5g CaCl
3.4g baking soda
1.9g chalk

As a side note, if you had told me less than a year ago when I was extract brewing that I'd be doing this today after building my brew stand I would have laughed at you.
 
That's alotta s*** you're adding to your water. Sometimes the numbers work out but the beer ends up tasty salty or chalky. If I were you, I'd mix up my water beforehand, taste it, and then only if it still tastes like water would I brew with it. Good work with the water report!
 
To get to the burton on trent water that is a lot of s***, but for my target water, that totals under 20 grams of stuff into 5 gallons. 20 grams of anything is pretty small.
 
If you can measure 3/10ths of a gram of salt then go for it I guess. I've got soft water and I don't do anything other than add a little gypsum sometimes or nothing at all.
 
TeleTwanger said:
If you can measure 3/10ths of a gram of salt then go for it I guess. I've got soft water and I don't do anything other than add a little gypsum sometimes or nothing at all.
Click to expand...

Hah, you've got a point there. So far its all theory and the voices in my head tell me not to round.

Here's a question: If 5.2 mash stabilizer "locks the mash pH at 5.2", why is that good? Based on Palmer's graphic, 5.2 is pretty low. Is it because Palmer's graphic says Residual Alkalinity Mash pH?
 
mew said:
That's alotta s*** you're adding to your water. Sometimes the numbers work out but the beer ends up tasty salty or chalky. If I were you, I'd mix up my water beforehand, taste it, and then only if it still tastes like water would I brew with it. Good work with the water report!
Click to expand...

+1 I would go easy. Add some Gypsum and call it a day on your next batch.
I have overdone this and ended up getting blasted by judges for salty chalky yuk.
 
Coastarine said:
Hah, you've got a point there. So far its all theory and the voices in my head tell me not to round.

Here's a question: If 5.2 mash stabilizer "locks the mash pH at 5.2", why is that good? Based on Palmer's graphic, 5.2 is pretty low. Is it because Palmer's graphic says Residual Alkalinity Mash pH?
Click to expand...

Locking your mash ph is good because the mash ph is all that matters. No matter what your water ph is or what grains you use the 5.2 will set the mash at 5.2. So if it's high or low dark or pale it doesn't matter.
Mash ph is a combination of water ph and grains used.
 
TeleTwanger said:
Locking your mash ph is good because the mash ph is all that matters. No matter what your water ph is the 5.2 will set the mash at 5.2. So if it's high or low it doesn't matter.
Click to expand...

I understand that, but why 5.2? According to the graphic 5.2 would be low.

I think this might kind of explain it. From "How to Brew"
This residual alkalinity will cause an all-base-malt mash to have a higher pH than is desirable (ie. >6.0), resulting in tannin extraction, etc. To counteract the RA, brewers in alkaline water areas like Dublin added dark roasted malts which have a natural acidity that brings the mash pH back into the right range (5.2-5.6). To help you determine what your RA is, and what your mash pH will probably be for a 100% base malt mash, I have put together the following nomograph...
Click to expand...
So the key is that on the graphic those pH values are what your all base malt mash would be, but once you add the dark malts it brings it back down to what you want it to actually be, which is 5.2-5.6. That clears it up.
 

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