efficiency question......need help

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madkap_78

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I just did my 2nd all grain batch today, I brewed a rye pa and ended up with only 66% total efficiency. I know that there are probably a bunch of post about this already but I wanted to get some feedback from some of you more experienced all grainers and see if you guys could help me out. I would like to atleast get up into the 70s.

This is what I did

15.75lb of grain

My local homebrew store crushed the grain at .035mm
boiled 5.25 gal of water and mashed at 153 for 60 mins. (stirred really well)
got 3.25 gals of wort for 1st runoff. 1.069 gravity
sparged with 3.30 gal of 180 water. temp in mash was 160. sparged for 10 mins then drained into brew kettle. 2nd runnings 1.036
boiled 60 mins at end of boil had 5.5 gal wort into fermenter. 1.065 gravity.


I was shooting for a starting gravity of around 1.073 which would of got me 72% efficiency. What am I doing wrong? I really want to get this down, if there is any tips you guys can give me Im all ears.
 
I don't think you are doing anything wrong frankly. This may be the efficiency you need to live with for your system. If you truly are not happy with this I'd see if you can get your crush a little finer and do a mash out getting your temp up around 170.

Fwiw the difference between 65 and 70% efficiency is just a few pennies more grain. Hardly worth stressing over from my perspective.

Steve da sleeve
 
Did you take hydrometer readings? With cooled wort?
Were your volume measurements accurate?
Did you have loss to trub or equipment?
If you mix your pre-boil wort really well, and carefully measure SG and volume, that will tell your mash efficiency, which is a better number to chase IMO.
 
In my opinion, the easiest place to start to improve your efficiency is to eventually purchase your own mill and bulk base malts. Toying with the rollers to get your optimum crush (for your system) is simple, especially if you keep good notes. And different brands of malt will also give you different yields. In the mean time, I would simply change your recipes to 66% eff. That is the name of the game. Consistency. If you are confident that your efficiency is a constant number, you can duplicate any recipe. :mug:
 
Did you take hydrometer readings? With cooled wort?
Were your volume measurements accurate?
Did you have loss to trub or equipment?
If you mix your pre-boil wort really well, and carefully measure SG and volume, that will tell your mash efficiency, which is a better number to chase IMO.




I used a refractometer with automatic temperature control.
Yes my volume measurements were accurate. I have a sight glass on my brew kettle that tells me how much is in there

I lose about a .25 gal to equipment.
 
My equipment by the way is a 10 gal igloo cooler mash tun w/ a false bottom and a 15.5 gal brew kettle.
 
Typically only doing one batch sparge will cost you a few percentage points. If you'd rather not do a second sparge and save the 15-20 minutes then next time just add another lb or two of malt. Unless you're running a business or truly have dreadful extraction, don't worry about efficiency.
 
How well did you stir after adding the sparge water? That's probably the single most important aspect of batch sparging.
 
I've only done 2 AG batches, but your sparge water volume seems low to me, the batch I did the other day I mashed with 3.4 gallons and sparged with 5.9 gallons. My pre boil volume was 8 gallons and I had 80% mash efficiency. My overall efficiency was 64% though because I didn't boil off enough, I was 6 points low on my OG. Like someone previously said, take your readings with cooled wort because the temperature correction is worthless, that screwed up my readings on my first AG batch.
 
Rye malt can be difficult to crush. It is smaller and harder than barley malt. My first batch had low efficiency. Next batch I crushed the rye on a much smaller setting and the efficiency was back to normal.

The most current batch had no rye but very low efficiency. I think it was caused by poor mash temp control and not stirring the mash 2 or 3 times.
 
I've only done 2 AG batches, but your sparge water volume seems low to me, the batch I did the other day I mashed with 3.4 gallons and sparged with 5.9 gallons. My pre boil volume was 8 gallons and I had 80% mash efficiency. My overall efficiency was 64% though because I didn't boil off enough, I was 6 points low on my OG. Like someone previously said, take your readings with cooled wort because the temperature correction is worthless, that screwed up my readings on my first AG batch.

I sparged with half of my boil volume. I was looking for 6.5 gal into brew kettle.
mashed with 5.25 gal water, ended up with 3.25 first runnings and then sparged with 3.25 gal water for a total of 6.5 gals.
 
Is that accounting for loss to grain absorption, dead space in the mash tun, and trub in the kettle?
And how much do you boil off in an hour? I'm still working it out but I boil off around 2 gallons an hour, but I have a keggle which is pretty wide.
 
Is that accounting for loss to grain absorption, dead space in the mash tun, and trub in the kettle?
And how much do you boil off in an hour? I'm still working it out but I boil off around 2 gallons an hour, but I have a keggle which is pretty wide.

I my Rye PA it was 15.75lb grain. I mashed with 5.25 gal water and ended up with 3.30 gals of water. I sparged with 3.25 gals of water. 6.50 gals into the brew kettle and ended up with 5.5 gals into the fermenter
 
In my opinion, the easiest place to start to improve your efficiency is to eventually purchase your own mill and bulk base malts. Toying with the rollers to get your optimum crush (for your system) is simple, especially if you keep good notes. And different brands of malt will also give you different yields. In the mean time, I would simply change your recipes to 66% eff. That is the name of the game. Consistency. If you are confident that your efficiency is a constant number, you can duplicate any recipe. :mug:

I actually have a Barley Crusher I bought from Bell's. I was having issues with efficiency myself coming in around 65%. I'm using the factory setting but I don't remember what that is. Do you have a recommended gap? I'm guessing a spark plug gapper is the best way to measure? I feel like I'm crushing everything when I inspect my grain though. I don't see any whole kernels... What about just running it twice?
 
Been batch sparging since I started brewing in '09. Using a barley crusher my efficiency was around 60%, moving to a MM and setting the gap small but still allowing for easy sparging I've been at 68% with no stuck sparges.

My process after working out volumes and grain absorption etc generally is a ratio of 1.25-1.75 quarts per lb for the mash. I'll mash 1-3 hours ( I usually go on a medium to long run during the mash!) then I add 1 gallon of boiling water, stir well and let it sit 15 mins to bring it to mash out temp - usually hit 168-70f, drain into the kettle then add the rest of the calculated sparge water at 180 f or so.

FWIW!

Every time I consider moving to fly sparging to bring efficiency up to, say 75%, it seems like way too much work to save a couple of lbs at, what $1/lb?!

Steve da sleeve
 
madkap_78 said:
I my Rye PA it was 15.75lb grain. I mashed with 5.25 gal water and ended up with 3.30 gals of water. I sparged with 3.25 gals of water. 6.50 gals into the brew kettle and ended up with 5.5 gals into the fermenter
I see, I thought your mash volume was 3.3 gal, not your first runnings.
Makes sense now.
 
66% total efficiency.
15.75lb of grain
crushed the grain at .035mm
5.25 gal of water and mashed at 153 for 60 mins. (stirred really well)
3.25 gals of wort for 1st runoff. 1.069 gravity
sparged with 3.30 gal of 180 water. temp in mash was 160. sparged for 10 mins then drained into brew kettle.
2nd runnings 1.036
boiled 60 mins at end of boil had
5.5 gal wort into fermenter. 1.065 gravity.

shooting for a starting gravity of around 1.073 which would of got me 72% efficiency.

A couple of quick things first,
What was the makeup of the grain? You said it had rye but how much and what other specialty grains? Rye has a max yeild of 63% while two row is closer to 80%. If the grist was 40-50% rye this makes a huge difference.

What temperature was the water/wort when your took the volume measurements? Boiling water is 4% larger than water at room temperature. That can have an effect on your measurements.

You said you use a refractometer, have you done side by side tests with a hydrometer to find your specific correction factor? see Here and Here for details.

All of that aside, your main issue seems to be one of conversion. Your mash thickness was 1.33qt/lb (21qt/15.75lbs) which should give you a first runnings of about 1.089 where as you got 1069. SO your conversion efficiency was only 74%. Conversion should be close to 100% and anything lower than 90% demonstrates a problem in your process.

There are several things that can affect this. As has already been mentioned several times, grain crush has a big impact here and may be your issue. I crush my grain at the LHBS and have no issues, so sometimes i think people point to crush only when other issues may be the problem, they include:

1. Mash Temperature: What kind of thermometer are you using and when was it last calibrated? Do you check the temperature in several places in the mash? Too low a temperature (below 150*F) can have an effect on conversion.

2. pH: I know little about this and can't really direct you on how to deal with it if this is your problem (But it is likely not the issue many people, including me, get efficiency in the 80s without adjusting or checking pH).

3. Time: lower temperature mashes take longer to convert. If your thermometer was off, you might not have gotten full conversion because you ended the mash before it was done. This might be the case becuase your second running were 1.036, while the expected runnings at 74% conversion would have been about 1.030. So you had some additional conversion during the sparge. Often lower temperature mashes (<154*F) are held for longer (90+ minutes) to allow for full conversion. Bud Light is mashed for 3 hours!

4. Mash Intensity: You do a single infusion and didn't mention stirring during the mash, so you have a very low intensity mash. This could mean you are not getting full conversion because the grain is not getting fully saturated with liquid. Stirring part way through the mash may help you reach full conversion (however I don't stir) Strike temperature has an effect here too. It is possible that you mash in with water so hot (to preheat the tun) that the first grains added to the mash water are being denatured before they can convert. I would only consider this if your strike temp is more than 10* higher than your desired mash temperature.

5. Mash Out: Adding an infusion of hot water at the end of the mash may help you finish conversion by bringing the mash into the range for alpha amylase (158-167*F). This may help convert fully, since you saw further conversion during your sparge.

6. Mash Thickness: 1.33qt/lb is not super thick, but you could go thinner to allow the mash more movement. Conversion gets easier the thinner the mash up to 2.5qt/lb. I normally mash at 1.5qt/lb. Increasing your mash liquid would increase conversion, but might have a negative effect on the launter efficiency due to less sparge water. Often people shoot for equal runoffs from the first and second runnings, but the first runnings are of higher quality (why people do no sparge sometimes) so equal running are not necessarily desirable to make good beer.

7. Dough Balls: Dough balls are much more likely to occur when you are adding the grain to the liquid at higher temperatures. You are infusion mashing so you don't have this option, but adding the grains to water at a temperature below 140*F will not have dough balls. For your system, you have to make sure you stir like crazy. (You said you did, but more stirring doesn't hurt) I have seen Yooper say " stir like it owes you money" this is a good thought for both mashing in and before your batch sparge.

Doing the math on your first and second runnings I come up with a preboil of 6.55 gallon and 1.052 gravity. This gives you a lauter efficiency of 80% which is good for batch sparging. You could increase this by switching to two sparges or collecting more liquid and boiling longer, but I think your issues lie in the conversion and trying to get a better lauter is chasing the wrong issue.

You have virtually no kettle losses, so I would guess you pour the wort into the fermenter. No issues there.

So short answer, fix your conversion and you will jump to 75-80% efficiency. I think the first places to look (other than grain crush mentioned by others) is your temperature, mash thickness, and stirring.
 
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