Belgian Dark Strong Ale The Pious - Westvleteren 12 style quad - multiple

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Do you guys bottle in normal bottles? I was kind of worried about the high level of carbonation in this style and bought some 375ml/750ml Belgian crown bottles.

A good point. We've carbed around 2.4 Vols in standard bottles without breakage. For higher carbing we've been using magnum or mini Champagne bottles.
 
2.1 volumes seems really low for this style of beer. Granted, I've never had a westy, but I've had St. Bernardus, which from what I understand is quite comparable, and that is certainly more than 2.1 volumes.

30g/gal of Candi Syrup at 68F should give you about 2.3 vols CO2...a good average for the style.
 
I'll be brewing a slightly different version of the old world for my nano, with the addition of a little bit of chocolate malt and aromatic, and also elderberries. If you are brewing at home, a very helpful addition is a cheap aquarium heater so you can ramp up the temperature. If you let it start at 64 for the first day and quickly ramp it up to 82 by day three, you will have a very nice beer. Properly made, there will be no off-flavors that need to age out.

I'd like to thank CSI and the folks at Candi Syrup Inc for a great product and phenomenal customer service. I'll be using your D-90 in my year-round dubbel as well, and also your golden in my sour tripel.

Really appreciate the compliment. I'll relay it to our Senior Partner also...the hardest working person I know.
 
Wow! Now that was a long informative thread. Thank you all for your contributions on making me a smarter brewer. I will try at least three of these variants over the next year. I will start with ordering the supplies for saq's New World with just a slight variation on the syrup (x2 D-180 and 1 D-90).
If this beer is as tasty as I think it is I will be in for a treat later on in the fall.

Thanks again guys!
 
I've had the 'traditional' in secondary for 2,5 months now. I guess that the consensus is that pitching more yeast before bottling is a good idea with this beer. I'm going to bottle next week (hopefully) and I was thinking of adding 1/2 cup of yeast that I've collected at high kraussen 1,5 months ago. Should I proceed, or should I bump up the amount of yeast?
 
Brew day has been 16 days and the gravity is @ 1.018 or 1.020 between two hydrometers. Starting gravity was 1.094.

The sample tastes great, albeit flat. It is not too sweet to me, which I thought it would at 1.018/20.

I'll give it another week @ 68 (ambient) then move it to a keg. If it's still at .018 then so be it.

I am excited to know what this will taste like with a little time conditioning.

Anyone else in the .018/20 ballpark? If so, what are your thoughts?

Since my starting gravity was 4 points higher, should I also expect my finishing gravity to be four points higher as well? For example, 1.090 to 1.012 (per the recipe) is 1.094 to 1.016 ... is my thought process correct?

I pitched a 1.5 ML starter, .5 mil short. Does this explain the missing attenuation? In other words, a bigger starter would have brought the FG down further? If yes, please explain why.
 
Since my starting gravity was 4 points higher, should I also expect my finishing gravity to be four points higher as well? For example, 1.090 to 1.012 (per the recipe) is 1.094 to 1.016 ... is my thought process correct?

Yes and no. Apologies for the ambiguity...clarity below.

We start with a scalar gravity-to-cell-count table. There is a doc out on our site under Help Docs with a table for pitching to target OG's specifically for high gravity Belgians. It has a seed rate column in it also to help get you to the right count per starter volume.

The quantity of starter is not always the most accurate means to determine pitch count. Starter seed rate, the build-up, starter wort gravity, O2, and then volume all play a role it estimating counts. Of course if we have a 1 ml pipette, Gram positive stain, a reasonably good microscope and a lot of time we can get a better estimate, (but it will still be an estimate albeit more accurate).

I pitched a 1.5 ML starter, .5 mil short. Does this explain the missing attenuation? In other words, a bigger starter would have brought the FG down further? If yes, please explain why.

Potentially yes, a low pitch volume could have failed to complete before target gravity assuming the starter was seeded with say 100 billion cells.

Potentially no, if the starter was seeded with 200-240 billion cells, (2 White Labs vials), a 1500ml starter would have hit target gravity. 3 points over in OG would likely not have stopped a pitch rate designed for 1.090 but primary may have been extended another day.

[QUICK EDIT] Gravity can also be cross-checked with a refractometer as long as the wort/ale sample is relatively clear.
 
ultravista I would look into checking and calibrating all your equipment, your hydrometer, thermometer especially. I think you should have finished a little drier than that. My OG was 1.096 and I finished at 1.010, and that was with mashing a little hotter at 151. Also remember that it isn't REALLY 1.010, because the high volume of alcohol is bringing down the gravity of the sample since alcohol is much lighter than water. This makes the beer seem to measure drier than it actually tastes. To illustrate, I had a huge IPA with lots sugar and it hit somewhere in the realm of 16% alcohol. The measured FG was 1.000, even though it had a little sweetness. I would love to see a calculator that compensates for this to extrapolate the true FG and also get a more accurate ABV but there isn't one that I know of.
 
bottlebomber - I'm using a Thermapen that I tested and calibrated. Between the TPen and another semi-expensive digital pen (can't remember the brand), we're talking .5 of a degree difference. I am comfortable with the temperature measurement at this point.

The hydrometers, we'll, while they are are about 1 point off measuring wort, both are dead-on at 1.000 in water, distilled and tap.

My refractometer was also calibrated with distilled and tap water, it too zero's out when tested.

A few points from this batch:
* 1.5L starter was one two week old vial of WLP530 with no forced O2, made with DME
* 90 minute mash was 148-149 (F)
* OG was 1.094 measured with a refractometer
* Wort was oxygenated through a 2 micron stone for approximately 60 seconds
* Starter wort was decanted, only the yeast slurry was pitched
* The wort was 64 degrees when the yeast was pitched
* Wort temperature is measured through a thermowell, center mass of the wort in a glass carboy, with a Johnson A419 controller
* Temperature was left to free rise to 76 (max) and got there within 24 hours
* Krausen came and went quickly, seemed to last less than 24 hours (was at work, not 100% certain on time)
* Blow-off was pretty heavy and thick in the 1 gallon container (lots of yeast in there)
* Temperature began to drop post krausen, applied external heat set to 80F (12/30)
* Maintained 80-80F for a minimum of 7 days
* Active fermemtation came and went in a short very agressive burst (estimated 1 day)
* OG was 1.094 on 12/28
* FG was 1.018/20 on 01/05
* FG was 1.018/20 on 01/12
* The carboy has been at rest since pitching, no rousing of the yeast has occcured
* Visually, the off-gassing has stopped and the airlock does not move
* Temperature is 67F
 
Ultravista,
What recipe did you use? Any variations on the recipe?
You need to get your primary fermentation temperature up above 76f, but not in the first day. I'd let it free rise up to 80f.
This temperature increase makes the yeast a lot more active which then increases attenuation quite a bit.
 
I just bottled 48 375ml bottles and 24 750ml bottles! I put them in Belgian crown capped bottles with black caps. Look all sorts of classy, but totally unnecessary, haha. :rockin:

I was asking some other people about repitching for bottling, and they all said not to do it and what not. I ended up going along with what the consensus is here and repitched yeast at bottling. Just split a packet of US 05 between the double batch. I was going to use Champagne yeast, but I had US 05 on hand.

Going into bottles, I tried some and it was great! Really looking to see how this sucker matures.
 
Ultravista, What recipe did you use? Any variations on the recipe?

You need to get your primary fermentation temperature up above 76f, but not in the first day. I'd let it free rise up to 80f. This temperature increase makes the yeast a lot more active which then increases attenuation quite a bit.

saq, I used your new world recipe with the exception of .5# extra 180 (didn't want to keep a partial container).

Primary fermentation only free rose to 76f where it sat for a couple of hours then began drop. I appplied external heat, 80f, at that point for 7 days. Excluding the rise from 64 to ambient.

Ambient temperature is 67f where the carboy sits, therefore it rose freely 9 degrees.

I was surprised that it did not get higher or stay at 76f for very long. The primary active fermentation came-and-went quickly. It was (and still is) covered with a t-shirt sitting in a milk crate on chair in the kitchen.

Do you recommend applying heat again, back up to 80f, rousing the yeast, or anything else short of pitching new yeast?

Could there be any unintended consequences to taking it back up to 80f for a while? There's no doubt that it's dormant or near-dormant at 67f.
 
Primary fermentation only free rose to 76f where it sat for a couple of hours then began drop. I appplied external heat, 80f, at that point for 7 days. Excluding the rise from 64 to ambient.

Ambient temperature is 67f where the carboy sits, therefore it rose freely 9 degrees.

I was surprised that it did not get higher or stay at 76f for very long. The primary active fermentation came-and-went quickly. It was (and still is) covered with a t-shirt sitting in a milk crate on chair in the kitchen.

Sounds like the only possible problem was an under-pitch. I get my version from 1.090 down to 1.013 maintaining a temp of 72F for the bulk of fermentation, and ramping to 78F towards the end. This is with a pitch of about 350B cells, and aeration for 30min.
 
Brewed the Original recipe on Sunday. Second day of Fermentation and this is doing well at 82° and a strong bubble. The aroma is awesome and looking forward to this a couple months out.
 
350B cells, approximately what size starter is that?

30min aeration?

3.8L on a stirplate, assumming 75% viability from one tube.

The wort was separated from the break material and aerated using a pump witha HEPA filter and a 2um sintered stone for 30 minutes immediately prior to pitching the decanted slurry. If one has an O2 setup, that could obviously be cut down significantly.
 
Ok... I finished at 1.008 from a 1.094 :rockin:

It's only been a few days since FG. I'm assuming the boozieness is the reason for the long "layering/aging" time, yes?
 
Ok... I finished at 1.008 from a 1.094 :rockin:

It's only been a few days since FG. I'm assuming the boozieness is the reason for the long "layering/aging" time, yes?

Well with the higher OG and lower FG, you'll probably have some serious boozieness for a while, but yes. Mine was much more mellow at bottling, but still needs some time to age for sure. I plan on trying it in 3 weeks when it's carbed up, then throwing it all in the cellar for at least 6 months.
 
saq - did you see my response?

brewskii - isn't 1.094 to 1.008 94% Apparent Attenuation? What was your process, pitch rate, temperature, and duration?

I'd have to get to 1.015 from 1.094 to achieve 84% AA.

On Friday (01/18), it will be three weeks. It's been resting at 67f for a week or more now. I turned-up the thermostat to 80f, roused the yeast gently (rocking the carboy without splashing), wrapped the carboy in two heavy towels, and will give it a few days. If something happens, I should see it start to off-gass a little. Currently, it's not off-gassing at all.
 
Update ...

The carboy is now 10 degrees warmer (from 67 to 77 on it's way to 80) and I already see activity again. Albeit slow, the air lock is moving again; about every 30 seconds.

At 67, it was completely dormant.

In a few hours, it will be back up to 80, and will stay there until the sample is at or damned near target gravity.

Surprising what a little heat can do :)
 
ultravista, airlock activity is not necessarily (but is possibly) a sign of more fermentation. The other explanation is that CO2 that was dissolved into your beer at 67 degrees is coming out as the temperature rises.
 
bottlebomber - "Mods, take him away" huh, me?

Yes, I realize airlock activity is not indicative of fermentation; with that being said, the airlock has been dormant for a week. With the addition of heat, it has become active again.

With rousing before, no CO2 was present, regardless of how much I roused the yeast. With the heat now, it began moving again. The root of the off-gassing is unknown until I take a reading again later. I'll give it a few days.
 
Yes, someone the longest spam mail I've ever seen urging us to order kefir grains now! One post member.
 
ultravista said:
bottlebomber - "Mods, take him away" huh, me?

Yes, I realize airlock activity is not indicative of fermentation; with that being said, the airlock has been dormant for a week. With the addition of heat, it has become active again.

With rousing before, no CO2 was present, regardless of how much I roused the yeast. With the heat now, it began moving again. The root of the off-gassing is unknown until I take a reading again later. I'll give it a few days.

No problem. CO2 is dissolved into your beer at 65 that will come out at 80 but hopefully you are getting just what you want, regardless. Mash temp and water/grain mash ratio could be a difference between nominal and observed SG, too.
 
Brewed this again today.
10.5 gallons @ 1.091 into the fermenter!
DA9FFB28-EAB8-4364-B45A-75A363C2AFE3-6507-000004518CF83DD0.jpg

AD8B3FF4-FD59-43C8-9AF8-755387DE26C0-6507-00000451EC746951.jpg

This is the first runnings that I boiled down to a syrup.
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Damn! Blingin' right there!

Excited! Giving this stuff a try for the first time tonight. Looks pretty carbed, but we'll see.
 
Just brewed the New World 24 hrs ago...temp has already climbed to 82 degrees and the blow out bottle had to be placed in another container lest I make a huge mess and short out my little space heater. I used 2 lbs of D-180 and 1 lb of D-90 other than that I kept the same recipe from saq...this baby smells great! as soon as I bottle this I'm brewing up the Traditional recipe then shortly after by the CSI recipe.

Thanks again saq for the recipe and CSI for the tasty syrup! And thank all the forum members for their contributions!

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Layne said:

Had my first real Welty 12 last night...amazing. Made the old world a few weeks ago (csi's recipe) and will be brewing saq's new world next week. Can't wait to test vs real


image-2832847318.jpg
 
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