I need a sanity check here

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uberg33k

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Hey all!

I was just playing Bru'n Water trying to get a recipe to match up as closely as possible to the original. I realized after playing with the sheets for a while, I might have gone full tweaker and overdone it, but the numbers seem to match up. I was just hoping for a sanity check.

The recipe: http://www.brewtoad.com/recipes/farmhouse-rye-ale

I do full volume BIAB (mostly due to laziness), so I'm starting at 7.75gal H2O.

My adjustments come out to:
Code: 
			Ca	Mg	Na	SO4	Cl	HCO3
Existing Water Profile	9	1	6	9	7	19
Finished Water Profile	87	15	20	55	38	251
				
Mash Parameters								
Batch Volume (gal)	5.00	Hardness (ppm as CaCO3)		279	RA (ppm as CaCO3)	137
Estimated Mash pH	5.2	Alkalinity (ppm as CaCO3)	208	SO4/Cl Ratio		1.47

So that means adding...
Epsom Salt: 3.5g
Baking Soda: 1.5g
Calcium Chloride: 1.5g
Pickling Lime: 3.5g
Magnesium Chloride: 0.5g

Does that look right? That just seems to me to be a lot of additions to get the mash pH in line and approximate the water profile in Denmark. I just want to make sure I'm not making a mess before proceeding. Any suggestions?

Thanks!
 
You're putting all that junk in that lovely water?

I don't know where you are getting pH and buffering capacity data for your malts but its probable you don't need nearly that amount of alkali. I'd do a test mash and check the pH of that before dumpling in lime and bicarb.

Epsom salts seldom bring anything to the table.
 
ajdelange said:
You're putting all that junk in that lovely water?

I don't know where you are getting pH and buffering capacity data for your malts but its probable you don't need nearly that amount of alkali. I'd do a test mash and check the pH of that before dumpling in lime and bicarb.

Epsom salts seldom bring anything to the table.
Click to expand...

I realized when I got the report back from Ward that I completely lucked out with my local water supply. I'm of the opinion less is more, so it's usually just a bit of CaCl2 to get the calcium up and that's it.

Based on the grain bill, if I do nothing, this is what I end up with:
Code: 
			Ca	Mg	Na	SO4	Cl	HCO3
Existing Water Profile	9	1	6	9	7	19
Finished Water Profile	9	1	6	9	7	19
				
Mash Parameters								
Batch Volume (gal)	5.00	Hardness (ppm as CaCO3)		27	RA (ppm as CaCO3)	9
Estimated Mash pH	4.7	Alkalinity (ppm as CaCO3)	16	SO4/Cl Ratio		1.29
I was a wee bit nervous about that pH. That seems way too low to be ok. I was also trying to match the water profile a bit closer to that of the source water of the clone, but after seeing how those additions came out, I realize he might just have crap water. Amazing how well the beer turned out considering what he had to work with.
 
uberg33k said:
I realized when I got the report back from Ward that I completely lucked out with my local water supply. I'm of the opinion less is more, so it's usually just a bit of CaCl2 to get the calcium up and that's it.

Based on the grain bill, if I do nothing, this is what I end up with:
Code: 
			Ca	Mg	Na	SO4	Cl	HCO3
Existing Water Profile	9	1	6	9	7	19
Finished Water Profile	9	1	6	9	7	19
				
Mash Parameters								
Batch Volume (gal)	5.00	Hardness (ppm as CaCO3)		27	RA (ppm as CaCO3)	9
Estimated Mash pH	4.7	Alkalinity (ppm as CaCO3)	16	SO4/Cl Ratio		1.29
I was a wee bit nervous about that pH. That seems way too low to be ok. I was also trying to match the water profile a bit closer to that of the source water of the clone, but after seeing how those additions came out, I realize he might just have crap water. Amazing how well the beer turned out considering what he had to work with.
Click to expand...


Can you screenshot the page where you entered your malts in for your mash? The modified bicarb level does seem high. EDIT: I just tried entering it in Bru'n Water. With roughly half the bicarb level in your adjusted water it gave me an estimated pH of 5.4. My calcium was at 80, similar to yours.
 
afr0byte said:
Can you screenshot the page where you entered your malts in for your mash? The modified bicarb level does seem high. EDIT: I just tried entering it in Bru'n Water. With roughly half the bicarb level in your adjusted water it gave me an estimated pH of 5.4. My calcium was at 80, similar to yours.
Click to expand...
sboYW.png


This did help me catch one error, which was I had Munich II at 108L instead of 8L. That helped a bit on the pH (5.0 instead of 4.7 with no additions), but I still seem to be lacking a bit.
 
uberg33k said:
sboYW.png


This did help me catch one error, which was I had Munich II at 108L instead of 8L. That helped a bit on the pH (5.0 instead of 4.7 with no additions), but I still seem to be lacking a bit.
Click to expand...

You should mark Amber Malt and the Dark Crystal Malt as Crystal Malts. The smoked malt should be a base malt. EDIT: Also, I think you'll need to add more alkalinity for this grist, so don't be afraid to add some (preferably slaked lime).
 
Ah yes, that does help a bit.

Code: 
			Ca	Mg	Na	SO4	Cl	HCO3
Existing Water Profile	9	1	6	9	7	19
Finished Water Profile	67	5	6	37	36	132
				
Mash Parameters								
Batch Volume (gal)	5.00	Hardness (ppm as CaCO3)		189	RA (ppm as CaCO3)	58
Estimated Mash pH	5.2	Alkalinity (ppm as CaCO3)	109	SO4/Cl Ratio		1.04

That's 1.5g of Gypsum, 1g CaCl, 2g Slated Lime, and 1g MgCl2. That sounds a bit more sane, yes?
 
uberg33k said:
Ah yes, that does help a bit.

Code: 
			Ca	Mg	Na	SO4	Cl	HCO3
Existing Water Profile	9	1	6	9	7	19
Finished Water Profile	67	5	6	37	36	132
				
Mash Parameters								
Batch Volume (gal)	5.00	Hardness (ppm as CaCO3)		189	RA (ppm as CaCO3)	58
Estimated Mash pH	5.2	Alkalinity (ppm as CaCO3)	109	SO4/Cl Ratio		1.04

That's 1.5g of Gypsum, 1g CaCl, 2g Slated Lime, and 1g MgCl2. That sounds a bit more sane, yes?
Click to expand...


Yeah, that seems better.
 
Yeah, wow much better. Is that MgCl or MgSO4? In either case I would drop it. The malt will have enough Mg. It's better to under do it than over do it. The calculator spread sheets are a good approximation, but still just an approximation. If you aim short, measure pH and add acid if needed you are probably better off.

Here is some information:
http://woodlandbrew.blogspot.com/2012/10/mash-ph.html
 
WoodlandBrew said:
Yeah, wow much better. Is that MgCl or MgSO4? In either case I would drop it. The malt will have enough Mg. It's better to under do it than over do it. The calculator spread sheets are a good approximation, but still just an approximation. If you aim short, measure pH and add acid if needed you are probably better off.

Here is some information:
http://woodlandbrew.blogspot.com/2012/10/mash-ph.html
Click to expand...

It's probably going to get dropped because I can't find MgCl2 anyway.

Now, this isn't the first time I've seen "the malt will have enough Mg". If that's correct, why isn't that accounted for in any brew water spreadsheet?

Unrelated side note: you should post your blog articles to the homebrew community on G+. Quality content you got there.
 
uberg33k said:
Now, this isn't the first time I've seen "the malt will have enough Mg". If that's correct, why isn't that accounted for in any brew water spreadsheet?
Click to expand...
Good question. I would like to know the answer to that as well. If I was going to wager a guess I would say that at safe levels it has little impact on acual flavor.
Unrelated side note: you should post your blog articles to the homebrew community on G+. Quality content you got there.
Click to expand...
Thanks! That's a great idea. I'm more of a face book person, so it will take a little tinkering to figure out.
 
The idea behind water spreadsheets was to determine how to synthesize water. It is only fairly recently that people started trying to predict mash pH (beyond Kolbach's simple relationship) from water chemistry. Malt contains a fair amount of magnesium some of it bound to the phosphate in phytin. It would be the phytin that would effect the mash pH, not the magnesium, and it is the reaction of phosphate with calcium (and magnesium) that Kolbach's formula tries to WAG. Thus magnesium is, in a certain sense, already accounted for.

It's easy enough to make small quantities of magnesium chloride from epsom salts and lime if one has access to food grade hydrochloric acid. But I don't see it doing much for one's beer. Magnesium is not generally regarded as flavor positive.
 

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