BM, how do you do it?

Well I must say that my last two low gravity beers have been ahhhh, rather poor in quality. In fact, I am very close to throwing them out. Grant these were some of my first AG's but still...

#1 Oatmeal stout, got poor efficiency, OG 1.036 FG 1.010, TG 1.067, (first solo AG)tastes like I got all the black patent, but it has no body. Tasted very phenolic when I put it on tap a few months ago, so I pulled it off and let it age till now.

#2 AHS Newcastle Clone, OG 1.038 FG 1.008- tastes like bitter water with a hint of soap, efficiency wasn't great on this one either, TG was 1.046

Now I understand that my poor efficiency on these may have a LARGE part to do with this, but after putting these side by side on tap and being very disappointed, I am worried about a Ordinary Bitter I did last week, I did have 76% efficiency on that batch after making some changes to my process.

So is there a trick with low gravity beers? Or is it simply my poor efficiency that is affecting these beers? Anything I have done with an OG over 1.045 has come out well.

Thanks for your help!

you'll have to be a lot more specific and post the recipes, with the grain bills, and mash schedule with exact temperatures that were reached.

poor efficiency could be the grain crush, your water fighting the right pH range, or a lack of properly rinsing the grains.

Yeah, i figgured that after I posted, sorry I should know better... I had just poured a pint and was kinda peeved, so I didnt go pull out my recipies or details. I will post those tonight when I get back home.

Mr. Wizard answered a similar question n this months BYO. He said something to the effect of "This requires tought love. I'm willing to venture the problem isn't with the pale ales, it's a problem in all of your beers. Pale ales tend to be less forgiving of non-ideal proceedure."

Same concept. Perhaps there's something in all of your beers that are throwing it off but it only become noticeable on the smaller beers

I notice two things in your problems, phenolic and soap flavor. Both of these scream "cleaner residue" to me. What santitizer do you use?

Other possibility is your water - have you checked out your water profile? Phenolic flavors can come from chlorine and a few other water "enrichments".

I'm sorry, but the title can't go completely unpunished. "Bowel Movement, how do you do it?"

We need to talk about what you've been doing to the water since our water here sucks so bad. If you're sticking with just our high alkaline tap water, I'm betting that's your problem. The high pH will also really hurt your efficiency and can cause some tannin extraction and REALLY make the hops stand out. I've been using ~ 80% RO water lately + 5.2 pH buffer and that seem to have solved things for me, even with light, low gravity beers.

Also, if you're just looking for a little more body, then you might want to raise your mash temps a few degrees. Do you know what you mashed those beers at?

BTW - you've gotta come over and try that ESB we did a few weeks ago. I think it turned out really good!

cheezydemon said:

I'm sorry, but the title can't go completely unpunished. "Bowel Movement, how do you do it?"

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Thought the same thing, but being a nurse 3/4's of my day revolves around sombody taking a dump.

what is he actually referring to when he says "BM"? Is he specifically addressing BierMuncher?

I am nearly certain that your low efficiency has a lot to do with your disappointing results. That throws your recipe far out of balance toward the specialty grains, which do not answer to the efficiency gods. See how that bitter comes out and look for any common problems with all three beers.


TL

Yes, I was referring to BierMuncher in the title because I know he makes alot of low gravity beers, like I said, I was peeved when I posted, so I am open to all ridicule you may throw at me

Yes our water profile sucks with very high bicarb levels, but I have been using the 5.2. Like I said, my larger beers have turned out awesome, just cracked open a bottle of a double IPA I did last night to calm my nerves and it was awesome. (well, its not as hoppy as I wanted, but it is still good.) It probably is due to more ingredients covering up underlying flaws in the beer.

The two beers in question were low efficiency beers, being some of my first solo AG's. I am pretty sure the low efficiency was due to low temperatures in my mash, low sparging temps, and poor sparging technique. I have addressed these problems with my last 3 batches and have been getting ~75-80% on those.

As far as cleaning/sanitizing, I have been cleaning with hot water, maybe some oxyclean on tough stuff, rinsing well, and using star san to sanitize.

Like I said above, now that I have calmed down and thought about it a little, I think I know where my problems lie, but I will still post all my recipies and notes when I get home this afternoon.

Thanks guys for even giving my first poorly formed post the time of day! After re-reading it, I probably would have ignored it myself…

I'm still worried about using 100% tap water with the 5.2 pH buffer. I don't trust that it's strong enough to bring down the residual alkalinity, plus all the extra bicarbonate may lend some different flavors to your beers. I'd try diluting (at least your strike water) with RO water and see if that makes a difference.

deathweed said:

BM, how do you do it?

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my bathroom reader helps

ok, recipie #1 AHS Oatmeal Stout:

Brew Type: All Grain
Date: 10/16/2007
Batch Size: 5.00 gal
Boil Volume: 5.72 gal
Boil Time: 60 min
Actual Efficiency: 40.56 %
Taste Rating (50 possible points): See first post

Ingredients Amount Item Type % or IBU
9.50 lb Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 79.17 %
1.00 lb Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain 8.33 %
0.50 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 4.17 %
0.50 lb Chocolate Malt (450.0 SRM) Grain 4.17 %
0.25 lb Black (Patent) Malt (500.0 SRM) Grain 2.08 %
0.25 lb Black Barley (Stout) (500.0 SRM) Grain 2.08 %
1.00 oz Horizon [11.40 %] (60 min) Hops 36.5 IBU
1 Pkgs Nottingham yeast

Beer Profile Estimated Original Gravity: 1.067 SG (1.050-1.075 SG) Measured Original Gravity: 1.036 SG
Estimated Final Gravity: 1.016 SG (1.010-1.022 SG) Measured Final Gravity: 1.010 SG
Estimated Color: 36.8 SRM (30.0-45.0 SRM)
Bitterness: 36.5 IBU (35.0-75.0 IBU) Alpha Acid Units: 11.4 AAU
Estimated Alcohol by Volume: 6.62 % (5.00-7.00 %) Actual Alcohol by Volume: 3.38 %
Actual Calories: 157 cal/pint


Mash Profile Name: Single Infusion, Full Body, No Mash Out Mash Tun Weight: 30.00 lb
Mash Grain Weight: 12.00 lb
Mash PH: not mesured
Sparge Water: 3.41 gal
Mash In Add 15.00 qt of water at 170.5 F 158.0 F 45 min

I hit my temp, but 45 minutes later the temp was ~148. Did not do a mash out, so my sparge was ~140-145 range.

For water, prepared all of it in advance with 5.2, I will look for a water report of the area and post it in the future. Or the zip code here is 77845.

#2 AHS Newcastle Clone
Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 10.50 gal
Boil Size: 12.02 gal
Estimated OG: 1.045 SG
Estimated Color: 9.7 SRM
Estimated IBU: 36.4 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
17.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 97.14 %
0.25 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 1.43 %
0.25 lb Chocolate Malt (450.0 SRM) Grain 1.43 %
1.50 oz Target [11.00 %] (60 min) Hops 29.7 IBU
1.00 oz First Gold [7.50 %] (15 min) Hops 6.7 IBU


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Full Body
Total Grain Weight: 17.50 lb
----------------------------
Single Infusion, Full Body
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
45 min Mash In Add 21.88 qt of water at 170.5 F 158.0 F
10 min Mash Out Add 8.75 qt of water at 196.6 F 168.0 F


Forgot to add notes on this one, was brewing with a friend and was a little druck that evening. I remember it was cold, and even though I have a mash out on my brewsheet, I dont think we did one, so temps were probably way low.


If anyone needs more info, I will provide what I can.

Oh, and Lil' Sparky, I will definitely take you up on trying your ESB! I tried our 08-08-08 again a week or so ago... Is it August yet? I want to drink it now!

deathweed said:

Mash In Add 15.00 qt of water at 170.5 F 158.0 F 45 min

I hit my temp, but 45 minutes later the temp was ~148. Did not do a mash out, so my sparge was ~140-145 range.

For water, prepared all of it in advance with 5.2, I will look for a water report of the area and post it in the future. Or the zip code here is 77845.

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10 degrees is a lot to lose in 45 minutes. What are you mashing in? It could be why the beers turned out thin and watery. One other thing is did you stir really well at dough in to make sure your grains were uniformly saturated by water? That could screw up efficiency and give wacky temp readings.
I would get some PH test strips and see where your mash PH is, especially if your water is questionable, although from your first post it sounds like your efficiency problem when away on the your latest batch. What did you change?

Lil' Sparky said:

I'm still worried about using 100% tap water with the 5.2 pH buffer. I don't trust that it's strong enough to bring down the residual alkalinity, plus all the extra bicarbonate may lend some different flavors to your beers. I'd try diluting (at least your strike water) with RO water and see if that makes a difference.

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Yes, I will probably do this in the future. My wheats always came out alright (except for the batch i screwed up with the coriander, but thats another story) I think it is because I controlled my temperature better with those by doing a step mash. So on that reasoning I was thinking just the 5.2 + tap was alright. Besides, (correct me if I am wrong) I didn't think that we used RO on the Hobgoblin, and that was a good beer!

Really, it has only been these two batches that have turned out so poorly. I knew I had poor efficiency at the time, but i was thinking, "oh well, guess I have a session ale!" Plus, having them side by side on tap is just disappointing when I know I have made beer that was soooo much better....

reshp1 said:

10 degrees is a lot to lose in 45 minutes. What are you mashing in?

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I'm using a keggle with a false bottom as a MLT. I do remember it was cool/cold on both those days, and I am fairly sure it was windy as well.

reshp1 said:

One other thing is did you stir really well at dough in to make sure your grains were uniformly saturated by water? That could screw up efficiency and give wacky temp readings.

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I hava a paddle that I stir with, and make sure I stir REALLY well. that may be a problem with the Oatmeal Stout batch (my first solo AG) but not the newcastle. I learned first hand the funkiness of trying to measure temperature and stirring trying to do a step mash on a Wit i did (2nd solo AG)

reshp1 said:

I would get some PH test strips and see where your mash PH is, especially if your water is questionable, although from your first post it sounds like your efficiency problem when away on the your latest batch. What did you change?

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Changes:
1. Crush, The last couple batches I have used Lil' Sparky's Christmas present as opposed to AHS pre-crushed grains It has been a much finer crush. I saw a couple points in efficacy just from that.

2. mash out: started to do one after I noticed my sparging temps were not a whole lot higher than my mash temps

3. Hotter sparge water: decided not to follow beersmith on this one, my last couple batches I mash out, then while I am vorloffing, I heat my sparge water to ~180ish. By the time I have drained my kettle it seems the grains cool off enough that I am still sparging at ~170-172 instead of the 150-154 of my first few batches.

4. Re-heating my mash when the temp drops more than a few degrees. I stir every 10 minutes or so, and if the temp drops when I do this, I just turn the burner back on and heat it up while stirring. The last couple batches i have also been recirculating the mash at the same time to help prevent scalding. Man I can't wait to build a brew stand and get a pump for that part.....:cross:

I did all of the above on my ordinary bitter, I will post notes on that brew day here in a bit.

Recipe: AHS Ordinary Bitter
TYPE: All Grain

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 5.50 gal
Boil Size: 6.30 gal
Estimated OG: 1.037 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 1.040 SG
Estimated Color: 6.8 SRM
Estimated IBU: 26.4 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Actual Efficiency: 80.53 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
6.75 lb Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 93.10 %
0.50 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 6.90 %
1.50 oz Fuggles [4.50 %] (60 min) Hops 24.7 IBU
0.50 oz Fuggles [4.50 %] (5 min) Hops 1.6 IBU


Mash Schedule: Temperature Mash, 1 Step, Medium Body
Total Grain Weight: 7.25 lb
----------------------------
Temperature Mash, 1 Step, Medium Body
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
60 min Saccharification Add 9.06 qt of water at 165.9 F 154.0 F
10 min Mash Out Heat to 168.0 F over 10 min 168.0 F

deathweed said:

Yes, I was referring to BierMuncher in the title because I know he makes alot of low gravity beers, like I said, I was peeved when I posted, so I am open to all ridicule you may throw at me
…

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Way to take it like a man...(I assume) Some people would have been pissed. Good on you mate.

I agree that you need to do a mashout and raise your sparge temperature. You should see a large improvement with your efficiency, especially with a big beer like that oatmeal stout. I did not see (or do not recall) if you batch or fly sparge. If you batch sparge, and you do not split your sparge, you also should try that.


TL

TexLaw said:

I agree that you need to do a mashout and raise your sparge temperature. You should see a large improvement with your efficiency, especially with a big beer like that oatmeal stout. I did not see (or do not recall) if you batch or fly sparge. If you batch sparge, and you do not split your sparge, you also should try that.


TL

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Its the details isn't it? I spend all day having to be observational, communicate well, keep accurate records, and sound intellegent and confident. Then I get on here and bluther like an idiot:cross:

Yes I batch sparge, and split the sparge in half, so I run the original mash, and 2 sparges. I have seen a large change in efficiency making all the changes I detailed above. I hope I have fixed my problem, but I come to all of you to help point out unforseen problems or make further sugestions for change.

cheezydemon said:

Way to take it like a man...(I assume) Some people would have been pissed. Good on you mate.

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1. yes, male
2. I know how much joshing goes on here, I have participated in a few myself Besides, whats the fun of being serious all the time, I mean we are making BEER here!

deathweed said:

Yes, I will probably do this in the future. My wheats always came out alright (except for the batch i screwed up with the coriander, but thats another story) I think it is because I controlled my temperature better with those by doing a step mash. So on that reasoning I was thinking just the 5.2 + tap was alright. Besides, (correct me if I am wrong) I didn't think that we used RO on the Hobgoblin, and that was a good beer!

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To be honest, I've never tried just tap water + 5.2. When we did the hobgoblin, I added lactic acid and 5.2 because I don't know if the buffer is strong enough. Since I've been diluting heavily with RO, I'm comfortable with just the buffer. I'd like to try building my water to style, but it sounds like Jas0420 hasn't had any better luck with that.

FYI - here's our water report for anyone who want's to see how out of wack it is.

That is why this site ROCKS!!!!!!!!!

Yeah, I had forgot about the lactic acid. I had put a little phosphoric in mine, but after i thought about one night I figgured:

10% lactic acid solution=.1g/ml
use a teaspoon worth=5ml=.5g
.5g=500mg/19L(5 gal)=26.3ppm

negligible to our 459ppm bicarb level

grant you cant compare wt. to wt., but given a rough idea (and the bicarb ion being smaller than a lactate ion) its still rather pathetic. Even the polyprotic phosphoric acid would wiegh in with a paultry ~.8meq's

When I get a better idea with whats in the 5.2, Ill try to figgure up an adjusted water profile with that.

Hey, Dr. Jekyl, can we test it somehow to see what bufering capacity it has?

Most definitely!!!!! I will see if I can contact some of the lab I used to work in and run some titration curves on our tap, tap+5.2, and tap+lactic/phosphoric+5.2.
With buffer curves in place, I can figure the true buffering capacity of the 5.2, maybe do some EDTA titrations to figure out [Mg] and [Ca]. Hmmmm, maybe cook up some mash and titrate that as well at different stages in a sparge...


Dangit! Why did you have to put this idea in my head! You just made it impossible so study for my pharmacology test next week....

Wasting other people's time is what I'm best at. Glad I could help.

Ok, its been awhile since I have done analytical chem, but based on some rough calculations, here is what I got:

5.2 is pH 5.2 in 1%solution (according to MSDS)
[H+]=6.31E-6

working through I got a values at:
a0=8.78E-4
a1=.989
a2=9.93E-3
a3=7.06E-10

so 5.2 is aprox:
98.9% NaH2PO4
1% Na2HPO4
~0.1% H3PO4

Meaning a tablespoon full per 5 gal=
tablespoon=15ml
MSDS said 5.2 is 1g/ml so 15g
winds up being:
124mmol NaH2PO4
1.06mmol Na2HPO4
0.15mmol H3PO4

As far as bicarb ion, 459ppm in 5 gal (18.9L) works out to be:
142mmol


hummmm, I am going to have to work on this some more, this may turn into a weekend thing.... I am not even taking into account everything else in our water, let alone how the bicarb affects the buffering capacity, because if it is at 5.2, most of the bicarb will be shifted back to its carbonic acid form... ok I am going to stop thinking about this for awhile, mabey I will spontaneously remember how to do stuff like this.

Yeah, sure, now about those TPS reports...

The buffer works great for me - I really wouldn't start futzing around with lactic acid or any salts unless I *knew* that I had a problem. If you're concerned, get either a pH meter or some of the good test strips. Water's just one of those things where it seems easier to do harm than good.

deathweed said:

Ok, its been awhile since I have done analytical chem, but based on some rough calculations, here is what I got:

5.2 is pH 5.2 in 1%solution (according to MSDS)
[H+]=6.31E-6

working through I got a values at:
a0=8.78E-4
a1=.989
a2=9.93E-3
a3=7.06E-10

so 5.2 is aprox:
98.9% NaH2PO4
1% Na2HPO4
~0.1% H3PO4

Meaning a tablespoon full per 5 gal=
tablespoon=15ml
MSDS said 5.2 is 1g/ml so 15g
winds up being:
124mmol NaH2PO4
1.06mmol Na2HPO4
0.15mmol H3PO4

As far as bicarb ion, 459ppm in 5 gal (18.9L) works out to be:
142mmol


hummmm, I am going to have to work on this some more, this may turn into a weekend thing.... I am not even taking into account everything else in our water, let alone how the bicarb affects the buffering capacity, because if it is at 5.2, most of the bicarb will be shifted back to its carbonic acid form... ok I am going to stop thinking about this for awhile, mabey I will spontaneously remember how to do stuff like this.

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Ugh. As if I didn't have enough math to do today already. I'll give er a swig, too, but it's also been a couple years since I took analytical.

I went through, figured everything up with the 5.2, worked out the concentrations, thought I had a buffering capacity worked out.... then realized I had forgotten to work in the water profile... oh well. Ive got the ground work laid, I guess I will finish up tomorrow.

I did get a pm pretty much stating that since our sodium is so high, adding more with 5.2 (which is a sodium/phosphate salt) may not be as good an idea as we thought. Instead, since our calcium and sulfate levels are low, using CaSO4 to lower the pH as well as lactic acid. Unfortunately calcium and phosphates tend to precipitate out, so using CaSO4 and 5.2 together won't go over so well.

Any thoughts on this? I think at this point the practical thing is just dilute our tap with RO like Lil' Sparky suggested. However, from an academic stand point, whats a good water profile for good all around brewing needs, and how to get there from the profile listed above.



and a update, tried that newcastle again, and its not near as bad as it was before. so 3-4 months wasn't enough but 1 more week might make it salvageable... Go figgure....