A Brewing Water Chemistry Primer

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Saccharomyces said:
Certainly. I know plenty of folks who have had good success with the sauermalz, but I prefer acid since I don't know the % acid content of my malt and it doesn't store well (for some reason acidulated malt seems to attract weevils at my house).

Kal's method of using 5- or 6-gal buckets and using Gamma Seal Lids to make them nice and airtight is a pretty surefire way of keeping bugs out. Bulk grains get poured directly into the buckets, specialty grains go in labeled Ziplocs, stored in identical buckets.

Edit: after seeing the ajdelange's post, I should add we're talking about almost the same thing. Gamma Seal Lids are standalone versions of the lids that make Vittles Vaults so useful, but IMO are much more cost-effective.
 
Any way to determine how much calcium is stripped from using phosphoric acid? I want to experiment with dropping my strike/sparge water down with it. My water has low everything, and I usually only add calcium chloride and sometimes gypsum, along with lactic acid or sauermalz to get to the proper ph. I usually just shoot for 50ppm on the calcium.

My thinking is if I use the phosphoric acid, my only mash/boil addition would be calcium chloride, thus simplifying the whole process.
 
Any way to determine how much calcium is stripped from using phosphoric acid? I want to experiment with dropping my strike/sparge water down with it. My water has low everything, and I usually only add calcium chloride and sometimes gypsum, along with lactic acid or sauermalz to get to the proper ph. I usually just shoot for 50ppm on the calcium.

My thinking is if I use the phosphoric acid, my only mash/boil addition would be calcium chloride, thus simplifying the whole process.

bump. :)

_
 
Interested in an answer to Wildwest's question and while we're on the topic of Phosphoric acid (and esp regarding the claim that it is 'flavor neutral'), the stuff we use at work stinks to high heaven. Does the stuff used for brewing stink? Or is the question more of whether the phosphate ion is flavor/aroma neutral?
 
SpanishCastleAle said:
Interested in an answer to Wildwest's question and while we're on the topic of Phosphoric acid (and esp regarding the claim that it is 'flavor neutral'), the stuff we use at work stinks to high heaven. Does the stuff used for brewing stink? Or is the question more of whether the phosphate ion is flavor/aroma neutral?

Star San is mostly phosphoric acid. Phosphoric acid is also used in many sodas (in pretty high amounts), and I've even seen it in flavored waters. In higher concentrations it contributes an acidic bite, but as far as actual flavor/aroma goes, there's pretty much none to speak of... and definitely not with the relatively low concentrations resulting from simple mash pH adjustment.
 
Interested in an answer to Wildwest's question and while we're on the topic of Phosphoric acid (and esp regarding the claim that it is 'flavor neutral'), the stuff we use at work stinks to high heaven. Does the stuff used for brewing stink? Or is the question more of whether the phosphate ion is flavor/aroma neutral?

The stuff I got is only 10%, no discernible odor.

_
 
Any way to determine how much calcium is stripped from using phosphoric acid? I want to experiment with dropping my strike/sparge water down with it. My water has low everything, and I usually only add calcium chloride and sometimes gypsum, along with lactic acid or sauermalz to get to the proper ph. I usually just shoot for 50ppm on the calcium.

My thinking is if I use the phosphoric acid, my only mash/boil addition would be calcium chloride, thus simplifying the whole process.

bump again, no one's going to see this if you guy's keep commenting.;)

_
 
Any way to determine how much calcium is stripped from using phosphoric acid? I want to experiment with dropping my strike/sparge water down with it. My water has low everything, and I usually only add calcium chloride and sometimes gypsum, along with lactic acid or sauermalz to get to the proper ph. I usually just shoot for 50ppm on the calcium.

My thinking is if I use the phosphoric acid, my only mash/boil addition would be calcium chloride, thus simplifying the whole process.
I'll be shutting up now WW.:) Oh but lemme add this; I thought I had read that there is a bunch of phosphate in malt, so much that it dwarfs any amount we might be adding by pH adjustment with phosphoric acid. So adding a bit of phosphoric shouldn't affect the Calcium content much.
 
bump again, no one's going to see this if you guy's keep commenting.;)

We had a good side discussion over in this thread:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/i-have-confused-myself-sauermalz-ro-water-245378/

Definitely worth a read. My takeaway is that adding phosphoric acid primarily neturalizes the alkalinity, causing H + HCO3 -> H2O + CO2. There is a lot of calcium and phosphate present in malt, so AJ advocates keeping the calcium low; how much additional calcium is precipitated out as calcium phosphate during the mash/boil I don't know since I don't understand all of the reactions involved, but it seems after our discussion there that it would actually be beneficial to the finished beer if it removes some of the excess calcium you are adding with a CaCl2 addition by precipitating it out. What I have noticed is that none is precipitated out if I simply add enough acid to the water to neutralize the alkalinity -- until the pH drops below about 5.7 the water is still clear, but if I add more phosphoric acid once all the alkalinity has been neutralized, the water turns cloudy which seems to indicate visually I'm precipitating out calcium phosphate or calcium carbonate.

As I mentioned over in that thread jack :D my water is low in sodium but has 46ppm free calcium so I use regular (un-iodized!) table salt for chloride ions, and gypsum (at a rate of no more than 1tsp per 5 gallons) for sulfates, and dial in the mash pH using lactic or phosphoric acid additions from Palmer's spreadsheet. I have tried to match water profiles a few times and whenever I tried it I found the resulting beer unsatisfactory. When it comes to water, it seems that KISS actually wins... With what I know now, I may switch to sulfuric acid when I want to increase sulfate, so I can avoid adding any additional calcium.
 
There is a lot of calcium and phosphate present in malt, so AJ advocates keeping the calcium low; how much additional calcium is precipitated out as calcium phosphate during the mash/boil I don't know since I don't understand all of the reactions involved, but it seems after our discussion there that it would actually be beneficial to the finished beer if it removes some of the excess calcium you are adding with a CaCl2 addition by precipitating it out. .

When you say "low calcium" what are levels are you suggesting? My untreated water has 35ppm of Calcium, and I've been aiming for 65-75 or so in my recent batches. Mostly, I'm thinking about the Ca necessary for yeast (which seems to be around 50-60ppm) or so.

But are you suggesting that because of the Ca in the malt we should aim for even lower numbers than 50ppm?
 
This is my attempt to convert AJ's units from teaspoons to grams, and account for the anhydrous form of Calcium Chloride instead of the dihydrate form. I assumed that 3/4 teaspoon of anhydrous Calcium Chloride is equivalent to 1 teaspoon of the dihydrate form and weighs 2.6 grams, and that 1 teaspoon of Gypsum weighs 4 grams. I then expressed the concentrations in parts per million when added to 5 gallons of water. For example, beginning with AJ's starting water, the baseline recommendation of "1 teaspoon Calcium Chloride (AJ used the dihydrate form) to each 5 gallons of treated water" results in 69 ppm Ca, 20 ppm Mg, 20 ppm Na, 20 ppm SO4, 108 ppm Cl, and a Sulfate to Chloride ratio of .23 when adjusted for the anhydrous form of Calcium Chloride.

A.J.'s Results (Starting water + Additions) for 5 gal of water (in ppm)
Calcium Magnesium Sodium Sulfate Chloride SO4/Cl2
Baseline 69 20 20 20 108 0.23
Pils, Heles, Hefes 45 20 20 20 64 0.38
Stouts, Porters 69 20 20 20 108 0.23
British / Light Ales 119 20 20 138 108 1.60
IPA, Export, Burton Ales 217 20 20 256 196 1.68

The formatting sucks - it looked good when I was typing it but now that its been posted it looks cluttered. I think copying it and pasting into a word processing app will make it more readable.
 
I've tried my best to "clean up" this sticky.

Everyone, please post specific questions about specific water profiles in a new thread. Thanks!

This sticky is for the "nuts and bolts" of the water chemistry primer, while questions and answers have been getting lost in here and making this resource sluggish. Thanks!
 
wildwest450 said:
The stuff I got is only 10%, no discernible odor.

_

Well, I mentioned before that I hadn't seen phosphoric acid anywhere, but as luck would have it, my lhbs JUST started carrying it. I picked up a gallon jug of the stuff - 70%. I take it this should last quite a while?

Interestingly, it's a Five Star product. It even has instructions for yeast washing right on the side of the jug.
 
wildwest450 said:
25 lifetimes, and that's conservative.

_

Hmmm. He mentioned that he was getting a smaller size in soon as well. But the whole jug cost me $20 (and pretty much everything at my LHBS is overpriced), so I just went for it.

Still, it's a heck of a lot cheaper than a sack of acidulated malt, let alone a lifetime supply.

But, a question for AJ: How much 70% phosphoric acid should I add to reproduce the pH adjustment per percentage point of sauermalz?
 
AJ,

One quick question --- I use distilled water for brewing, so from your baseline numbers if I am brewing a British beer (say a Brown Ale) I should use 1tsp Calcium Chloride (baseline) + 1 tsp Gypsum and 1 MORE tsp Calcium Chloride? OR just 1 tsp each of Gypsum and Calcium Chloride per 5 gal of water.

Also --- Do I need to treat the sparge water also with salts ? My total water volume is around 9 gal per batch so do I treat just the mash, or for both the mash and the sparge water?

If I am using Latic Acid(88%) instead of sauermalz what amount do I need to use to equal the 2% sauermalz per batch?

Thanks and much appreciated ! :mug:
 
One quick question --- I use distilled water for brewing, so from your baseline numbers if I am brewing a British beer (say a Brown Ale) I should use 1tsp Calcium Chloride (baseline) + 1 tsp Gypsum and 1 MORE tsp Calcium Chloride? OR just 1 tsp each of Gypsum and Calcium Chloride per 5 gal of water.

I'd start with one of each and adjust from there in subsequent brews. High sulfate (from gypsum) is traditional in some British beers but not all. The more sulfate you add the more assertive the hops become. Conversely chloride softens, rounds and sweetens the beer. It is really a matter of hitting the combination that gives you the result you like best which is not likely to be the same for all beers. In a German style you would use no sulfate, for example

Also --- Do I need to treat the sparge water also with salts ? My total water volume is around 9 gal per batch so do I treat just the mash, or for both the mash and the sparge water?

No you wouldn't need to treat the sparge water from the POV of preventing phenol extraction but you would probably want to from the POV of carrying the desired sulfate, choride and calcium levels into the fermentor. A brewery usually brews with the water it has. You are emulating that water and thus it ought to be the same for all steps in the process.


If I am using Latic Acid(88%) instead of sauermalz what amount do I need to use to equal the 2% sauermalz per batch?

Sauermalz is generally considered to contain about 2% lactic acid w/w. Thus 1 pound of sauermalz (454 grams) would contain 9.1 grams of lactic. Lactic acid is usually sold as 88% w/w so 9.1 grams of pure acid is found in 9.1/0.88 = 10.3 grams of 88% acid. The 88% acid weighs 1.2 grams/cc so 10.3 grams corresponds to 10.3/1.2 = 8.6 cc. This is one of the reasons I prefer to use the sauermalz - the calculation is simple (1% per 0.1 pH drop sought). The other is that it add subtle flavor complexity to beers brewed with it.
 
Hey, just to make sure I am doing the math correctly, does this mean that a pound of sauermalz (assuming 2% lactic acid content) is equivalent - in terms of pH adjusting - to 9.55cc of 75% phosphoric acid?

This would make things not too difficult, I think. It would just be 0.6% of the total weight in ounces (instead of 1%), but in cc as opposed to ounces. Or I could even slightly dilute the 75% solution to 71.6%, and that would allow the necessary cc's to be figured as .1 (10%) the weight in pounds for every .1 drop in pH.
 
Approximately. In going from pH 5.7 to pH 5.2 you would need 1.03 times (by weight) as much phosphoric as lactic because, while phosphoric is a stronger acid, it has a higher molecular weight (98 vs. 90.1). But 85% phosphoric acid is denser (1.61 g/cc) than 88% lactic (1.21 g/cc). Don't know what the density of 75% phosphoric acid is but using 1.61 g/cc to get a rough answer it looks as if 10 % less phosphoric would be needed on a volume basis i.e.9 mL of phosphoric would have the same effect as 10 mL lactic.

When using liquid acids it is best to add half, check pH, add half of what's left, check pH etc.
 
I read an article last night about Sierra Nevada's Beer Camp. This was in an old issue of Zymurgy. They talk about how SN treats all their water with phosphoric acid until they get down to a pH of 5.5. The article stated that they do this to all their water. This includes strike water and sparge water. I have very soft water with Alkalinity in the 18-30 ppm range. If I treated my strike water with ONLY acid until I hit 5.5. What pH should I expect to see in a mash with 10 lbs of Marris Otter in about 5 gallons of water. I am going to try this and was just curious what I should expect to see. Everything on my Ward labs report was below 4 ppm except Na which was 14, HCO3=37, CaCO3=30.
 
I do have a pH meter and I have been using it every step of the way.
 
I read an article last night about Sierra Nevada's Beer Camp. This was in an old issue of Zymurgy. They talk about how SN treats all their water with phosphoric acid until they get down to a pH of 5.5. The article stated that they do this to all their water. This includes strike water and sparge water. I have very soft water with Alkalinity in the 18-30 ppm range. If I treated my strike water with ONLY acid until I hit 5.5. What pH should I expect to see in a mash with 10 lbs of Marris Otter in about 5 gallons of water. I am going to try this and was just curious what I should expect to see. Everything on my Ward labs report was below 4 ppm except Na which was 14, HCO3=37, CaCO3=30.

Speculation aside, you should just try it out on a scaled down mash...say 1 pound of grain (keeping everything in proportion). That's what I've done when using a new grain bill. After a while you get a sense of what different malt combos will produce in terms of pH with your water. But yeah, do a small mash first; it will be cheap and give you peace of mind that you won't be scrambling to chase your pH around on brew day.

Also, is there an electronic copy of the article you mentioned? Sounds interesting...thanks.
 
I guess I am most interested in the fact that they are treating their strike water prior to doughing in. This goes against what I usually have read.
 
AJ, I know you recommend cooling the sample to room temp prior to measuring with pH meter, however, in Gordon Strong's new book he says "Note that mash pH is measured at mash temperatures, not cooled. If you cool the mash, the pH will read about 0.35 higher than at mash temperature." I just got a Hanna pHep 5, that has temperature compensation, yet its upper temperature limit is 140F. Can you shed some light on why he might be advocating this. How does the temperature compensation feature work?
 
AJ, I know you recommend cooling the sample to room temp prior to measuring with pH meter, however, in Gordon Strong's new book he says "Note that mash pH is measured at mash temperatures, not cooled. If you cool the mash, the pH will read about 0.35 higher than at mash temperature." I just got a Hanna pHep 5, that has temperature compensation, yet its upper temperature limit is 140F. Can you shed some light on why he might be advocating this. How does the temperature compensation feature work?

Certainly mash pH is measured at laboratory temperature in commercial brewing but some home brewers may be measuring it at mash temperature. There are good reasons for not measuring at mash temperature such as (and probably the most important) that it is hard on the pH electrode and consequently shortens its life. Second is that mash temperature is not defined. Is it the 105 °F beta glucan rest, or 125° F protein rest or a low temp (145 °F) saccharrification rest or a higher saccharrification temperature? Conversely, lab temperature always means 20 °C or close to it.

If you read a commercial brewing textbook or any other of the published literature all pH readings you see will be for lab temp. Thus you can become confused if you try to interpret them as mash temp values.

DeClerck's book is the only one I am aware of that explicitly states that all pH values are at lab temp. You assume the other authors are doing the same thing because if they were talking other temperatures they would say what the temperatures are but you really cannot be 100% certain that this is the case. IOW everyone should use room temp but that doesn't mean he will.

How does the temperature compensation feature work?

A pH electrode is a pair of half cells that in combination produce a voltage

V = Eo + a*(R*T/F)*(pHi -pH)

Eo is a constant (a couple of millivolts) voltage produced when pH = pHi
a is a constant near 1
R and F are physical constants
T is the absolute temperature of the solution
pHi is the pH value, close to pH 7, at which the electrode response in not dependent on temperature
pH is the pH of the sample.

a*R*T/F is about 57 mV per pH unit at 20 °C. The meters measures V and T. If immersed in 2 buffers whose pH's are known as a function of temperature, the meter can calculate a and Eo. pHi is assumed to be 7.

Thus 2 things change with temperature
1. The hydrogen ion activity ( pH = -log(activity))
2. The electrical response of the electrode to a particular pH

It is the role of ATC to compensate for the latter and only the latter.

While it is supposed to be the case that 6.5 < pHi < 7.5 this isn't always so. If it isn't, pH measurement more than a couple of degrees away from room temperature will cause ATC to introduce errors. This assumes that the buffers were at room temperature when the meter was calibrated. If calibration is done at a temperature close to that of the mash and the mash itself is measured at mash temperature then this error goes away. Much simpler to calbrate and measure at room temp (IMO).
 
Are the brewers that use acid malt to adjust mash pH using anything to treat the sparge water?
 
Are the brewers that use acid malt to adjust mash pH using anything to treat the sparge water?

It depends on the brewer's starting water. If they are using low alkalinity water like RO or distilled, they would not have to add acid to adjust their sparge water. If they are using a high alkalinity water, then its highly advisable to reduce the sparge water alkalinity with an acid addition.
 
Hi everyone,

going to take a crack at going with RO water for my next brew, an oatmeal stout. here's the recipe:

http://hopville.com/recipe/927282/oatmeal-stout-recipes/updegraff-oatmeal-stout-2011-10-08-version

my question is, would it be preferrable to add the CaCL and gypsum to just the mash, in my case I'm looking at about 3.5 g of each, or split up the additions between the mash and sparge water (add to boil). either method would keep the mash ph between 5.4-5.6 and get me up to the minimum of 50 ppm Ca. Also, I assume given the advice in this thread, having no Mg in the water profile isn't a big deal?

Thanks!
 
It's generally easiest to treat all the water the same. There is no need to treat the sparge water here any differently from the mash water. So I'd say just prepare all the water you intend to use at the beginning of the brew day.

Malt contains quite a bit of magnesium and so no additional magnesium is required when brewing with RO water. Some guys will blend in 10% tap water just to be sure that they get traces of everything that's in their source water. Probably not necessary but I do it.
 
Absolutely, sparge water must be treated differently than mash water. AJ's limited perspective (since he is speaking for the recommendations of the Primer) is of little value when the mash water needs more alkalinity or the tap water (not RO or DI) has some alkalinity. Alkalinity might be OK in the mash, but its not OK in the sparge. Bringing sparge water alkalinity down to low levels is strongly recommended. In the case of the Primer, the brewing water is already at a low alkalinity and AJ's recommendation holds true (in this case!)
 
Absolutely, sparge water must be treated differently than mash water.

Hardly. I've never done it is over 25 years of brewing and while that doesn't mean that it may not be justified or even required in some cases my experience alone wipes out an "absolutely".


Some alkalinity is fine in the sparge water. Before I realized how important it is to get alkalinity out of brewing water (or more precisely, before I realized how important it is to get mash pH correct which requires removing alkalinity in the beers I brew) I sparged with my untreated well water (alkalinity about 80) as a matter of course. I checked runoff pH until I realized I was never going to bust the feared 6.

But suppose I had. What would the consequences be? A bit of phenol extraction from the husks. And what is the consequence of that? Nothing much really except that the beer may take a little longer to clear. I should point out that I do mostly lagers in which the husks are boiled twice (at lower pH however) and in which it is accepted that phenols will be extracted. That's one of the things lagering/conditioning is for - to allow them to complex and settle out.

My perspective is, of course, limited by my experiences which in turn are limited by the styles of beer I brew which are mostly lagers and German ales with an occasional stout and British ale thrown in. Additional alkalinity is not required in the water/mash for any of these (even though some come in as dark as 80 SRM) and so no separate treatment of sparge water is required. I haven't the temerity to suggest that my perspective should be everyone's. Opinions are like - well, you know what they are like and everybody has got one. This is why I so adamantly push pH meters. One pH meter reading is worth a million opinions (IMO). If you think you may have a situation where alkali is required in your mash, check with a pH meter reading to see if that's really the case. If you think your runoff pH may be getting high before you are finished collection, check it out and know.
 
I have two stupid questions:

I think I've understood that for PA's (like Edwort's haus pale I'm about to brew) I should use the brit beer additions and for IPAs I should use the export/minerally beer additions. Is that correct?

Also, I can reach baseline water with a 1:1 dilution in everything but Chloride, which would require 3:1. Is the addition of cal chl intended to boost calcium or choride? I don't want to overdilute and then add the chloride right back, but if that addition is for the extra calcium, then I would have way too much Chloride unless I dilute it to <20ppm. So should I dilute 3:1 or 1:1?

Thanks for bearing with a noob.
 
I think I've understood that for PA's (like Edwort's haus pale I'm about to brew) I should use the brit beer additions and for IPAs I should use the export/minerally beer additions. Is that correct?

It really depends on how you like your beer. If you like a minerally IPA then add lots of chloride and sulfate. If you like a soft IPA then cut back on both. If you like a mellow IPA with muted hops character, then use more chloride than sulfate and conversely.

Also, I can reach baseline water with a 1:1 dilution in everything but Chloride, which would require 3:1.Is the addition of cal chl intended to boost calcium or choride?

Originally the idea was to have a minumum level of calcium often quoted as 50 mg/L. Calcium is beneficial to mash/ferment in many ways but it doesn't need to be nearly as high as 50 mg/L. Lots of beers are brewed at appreciably lower levels.

Chloride tends to do good things to beer. Renders them apparently fuller bodied, rounder, mellower, sweeter. Thus an addition of calcium chloride almost always improves a beer. If one wanted to brew beer with a single water composition RO with a bit of calcium chloride would probably be that water.
 
I may have missed this in the long thread, but is sauermalz just adding Lactic acid to the water?
My local shop doesn't carry this but they do have lactic acid.
I start with only RO water and need to build the profile up since my local water is nasty well water.
If that is the purpose of sauermalz, how much lactic acid should I add instead of sauermalz .

Thanks
 
Sauermalz does add other things to beer but its main purpose is as a carrier of lactic acid. It is best to check acid additions by measuring mash pH but if a meter is not available the usual rule of thumb is 1% of the grist (by wt.) per 0.1 pH unit to be dropped. In the Primer I suggest no more than 3% and sometimes less saiermalz depending on the beer. A second rule of thumb says that saiermalz contains 2% lactic acid by weight. Thus if a recipe calls for a killogram of sauermalz it would want 20 grams of lactic acid. Lactic acid is usually sold as 88% by wt so the 20 grams of lactic acid would be 20/0.88 grams of 80% lactic acid. Finally, 88% lactic acid has a density of 1.3 grams/mL so you would need (2/.88)/1.3 mL.
 
It really depends on how you like your beer. If you like a minerally IPA then add lots of chloride and sulfate. If you like a soft IPA then cut back on both. If you like a mellow IPA with muted hops character, then use more chloride than sulfate and conversely.

If I want to brew a DFH 60 clone, which way would be appropriate?

Originally the idea was to have a minumum level of calcium often quoted as 50 mg/L. Calcium is beneficial to mash/ferment in many ways but it doesn't need to be nearly as high as 50 mg/L. Lots of beers are brewed at appreciably lower levels.

Chloride tends to do good things to beer. Renders them apparently fuller bodied, rounder, mellower, sweeter. Thus an addition of calcium chloride almost always improves a beer. If one wanted to brew beer with a single water composition RO with a bit of calcium chloride would probably be that water.

So it seems diluting about 2:1 and using the standard salt addition should be fine. A little extra chloride shouldn't hurt (source it 68 ppm IIRC, readout is at home).

Thanks for the quick response! This forum is great!
 
I was going to build up a water from RO. I ended up buying "Primo" water because I needed the container. It is RO with added Sodium Bicarbonate, Calcium Chloride, and Magnesium Sulfate. But I don't know how much. Should I discard this and get RO water so that I know what I'm dealing with.
I'm new to this. It if for an IPA.
 

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