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Thanks for being a calming source and putting it into perspective Brew Master. I agree the risk is small for legal issues, unless you start selling the stuff and mass producing. The risk of concentrated methonal is also low, but still there. What a man does in his own back yard is his business.... unless he gets caught haha!

I concur, RDWBHHAHB
 
Sorry if I came on too strong I was just sure freeze concentration is done after and not before fermentation,oh and you're right "What a man does in his own back yard is his business".
And only by experimenting can we learn more things about what we don't understand, and if someone gets sick or arrested because he read something somewhere it's his own fault cuz nobody held a gun up to his head to do it. If you dare someone to speed at over 100 mph over the highway should you pay his speeding ticket?
 
so I found what I had read from annie proulx book regarding the statutes for federal law and freeze distillation. This would of course supercede State law. Again - I concur that the chance of Johnny law chasing down a home brewer who isnt mass producing or selling, is minimal:

"home cidermakers who think they've found a way through the federal barriers to farm-made applejack by making "frozen heart" applejack - separating ehtyl alcohol out from the chief by frational crystalization - will be disapointed to know that

the product derived by the drawing off of ethyl alcohol from a barrel of frozen hard cider would be considered distilled spirits as defined in 26 U.S.C 5002(a)(80)(A). It is unlawful to produce any distilled spirits at a place other than a qualified distilled spirits plant. To do so would be subject to the penalties of 26 U/S.C 560L.

The penalties are a fine of not more than $10,000 or imprisonment for not more than five years, or both for each offense."

The above is a direct quote from page 205 of Annie Proulx's Cider making book.

What would be really cool is if you could get a bunch of home brewers in one area to fund a single "qualified distilled spirits plant". You could potentially side step the law, and minimal taxation since you wouldn't be selling the liquor. Although I think I read about doing that and believe you have to produce a minimum quantity yearly, and or sell a certain amount (so uncle sam gets his taxation). What would be really nice is if they let home brewers do like 5 gallons of the stuff per year or something.... Here is to hoping!

Between - I have had applejack made from an old local ciderman man, who taught me many of his tricks with fresh cider and fermented. The stuff is awesome. I hope the laws for stills change soon, I would love to work a still at some point in my life. Can't think of something much more fun to do on the weekend :mug:
 
CidahMastah said:
so I found what I had read from annie proulx book regarding the statutes for federal law and freeze distillation. This would of course supercede State law. Again - I concur that the chance of Johnny law chasing down a home brewer who isnt mass producing or selling, is minimal:

"home cidermakers who think they've found a way through the federal barriers to farm-made applejack by making "frozen heart" applejack - separating ehtyl alcohol out from the chief by frational crystalization - will be disapointed to know that

the product derived by the drawing off of ethyl alcohol from a barrel of frozen hard cider would be considered distilled spirits as defined in 26 U.S.C 5002(a)(80)(A). It is unlawful to produce any distilled spirits at a place other than a qualified distilled spirits plant. To do so would be subject to the penalties of 26 U/S.C 560L.

The penalties are a fine of not more than $10,000 or imprisonment for not more than five years, or both for each offense."

The above is a direct quote from page 205 of Annie Proulx's Cider making book.

What would be really cool is if you could get a bunch of home brewers in one area to fund a single "qualified distilled spirits plant". You could potentially side step the law, and minimal taxation since you wouldn't be selling the liquor. Although I think I read about doing that and believe you have to produce a minimum quantity yearly, and or sell a certain amount (so uncle sam gets his taxation). What would be really nice is if they let home brewers do like 5 gallons of the stuff per year or something.... Here is to hoping!

Between - I have had applejack made from an old local ciderman man, who taught me many of his tricks with fresh cider and fermented. The stuff is awesome. I hope the laws for stills change soon, I would love to work a still at some point in my life. Can't think of something much more fun to do on the weekend :mug:
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I am a chemist major, and still don't understand why you guys seem to be confusing fusel concentration with something horrible and dangerous. I'm going to spell this out to make it easy for you guys to understand. Lets say you have two gallons of 10% cider. Of that 10%, 0.5% are fusels(I don't actually know the typical fusel concentration, but it won't matter for this problem). You freeze distill it, to the point that you remove half the the water. So now, you have one gallon of 20% cider, with 1% fusel concentration. You do this again, now you have half a gallon of 40% cider. Following? Let's say if it were just plain cider, you would drink 5 - 8oz glasses. This is equivalent to 4oz of pure alcohol(of various types, including fusels, but primarily ethyl alcohol). This means that 0.2oz of that alcohol are fusels. Now let's fast forward to the apple jack. Let's say you drink an equivalent amount of alcohol, this being 4oz of alcohol. 1/0.4(inverse ratio of 40%) = 2.5. 2.5 * 4oz = 10oz. So, you drink 10oz of applejack, get just as drunk as you would off the cider, and drink the exact same amount(0.2oz) of fusels.

Unless freeze distilling somehow converts sugars or ethyl alcohol into fusels, it doesn't matter how you drink it. Also, Cidermastah, your comparison to aspirin makes no sense, because you are forgetting that you would have to stop drinking applejack due to ethyl alcohol overdose(alcohol poisoning) long before you would even start to be remotely affected by the fusels.

As far as the legal thing goes, I don't understand why so many of you have such a hardon for the government. CiderMastah, if you would love to have a still sometime in your life, what are you waiting for? You aren't going to get caught, even if you parade it all over this forum. Do you honestly have a conscience that would prevent you to live your dream because you would be crossing uncle sam? It's ridiculous, sometime's you have to look at a law, and try to understand why it was put there in the first place. As you said, it is to prevent people from hurting themselves, and like you also said, you think that you could implement a distillation of applejack without any problems. I guess I just don't see what's preventing you, hell, I've been homebrewing since I was 18
 
First and foremost, the question was, is it legal. The real answer was.... no it is not.
My only other goal in the matter was to make sure people knew there was a risk is freeze distillation, which there is of concentrated chemicals, most notably, methanol. This is the stuff that can make you go blind.


Listen,

1. You are a chemist major.... check back when you have the degree. As of now it isn't looking good for you in my mind. Yes the aspirin example was extreme, but concentrating volitals such as methonal, has real danger - which was really all I was trying to illustrate.
2. You are 19 and think you have the answers, but in fact your rebuttal had no answers, just assumptions.
3. There is a risk in concetrating distillate.... period
4. It is a felony violation to distill, including freeze distilation.... period. This supercedes state goverment regulation.
5. Once you get a little older you may realize that you have obligations to people other than yourself, and that, for the risk, putting up a still just isn't the right move.

Why don't you try and write back when you are of age.
 
As for your break down of percentages. Let's say you ferment a cider out at 10%, then go ahead and distill it. You would need ~ 10 gallons to get one gallon of pure spirit. That means your volatiles would be concentrated from by 90% of what they were without proper fractional heat distillation.

Would they kill you tomorrow... not likely, but would they give you jake leg if you drink the stuff heavily for a period of time.... perhaps.

giddi-up there cowboy!


One other quick note about methonal alcohol..

"The concern is due to the presence of methanol (wood alcohol), an optic nerve poison, which can be present in small amounts when fermenting grains or fruits high in pectin."

This went on to say that you can remove methanol from your distilate by removing the heads (foreshots). You can't separate methonal by freeze distillation.

Anybody know anything that is high in fruit pectins? Ok I will solve the mystery, apples have the highest amount of fruit pectin of just about any fruit. You will notice when you buy pectin to make jams, etc., it is often apple pectin that is being used.

Fatal dosage:
Methanol : usual fatal dose 100-250 mL

http://homedistiller.org/methanol.htm

Most of the symptoms from too much methonal would come from years of chronicly drinking it, that of an alcoholic's level of consumption.

Again - will it blind you tomorrow... probably not. Will you have heaps of methonal for a fatal dose? Unlikely. But is there a risk that should be noted? IMO Absolutely
 
wow just read all the thread. CidahMastah calm down man and have a homebrew. I talked to my LHBS peeps who have a combined experience of 30 years of brewing and they said that freeze distillation will not make you sick. They furthermore said that most of the tales of alcohol making you blind orginated from the prohibition era when bootleggers would use old rediators as stills and that lead residue infused the alcohol and poisoned people. I guess it is technically illegal to freeze distill, but personally I see it as a formality law such as jaywalking.
 
Dude I am perfectly calm - just putting facts up. I agree that the ATF isn't probably out to get you. Where I disagree is the "trust me my buddies say its safe" mentality. I prefer to get facts and make my own judgement.

What I don't understand is how I come across as the bad guy for posting facts on the issue. The people in oposition have not done that, and I respect their choice the do whatever they want. But I feel the facts are important, let each reader decide from facts, not assumptions or case study experience.

I will end it with this, because it is getting tiresome on this thread. My efforts are to provide facts, ultimately you decide your path. I won't however, for the sake of being popular operate on heresay. If I tell you something, it is because I have a darn good reason to believeit - either personal experience, research/fact finding or similar.
 
CidahMastah said:
First and foremost, the question was, is it legal. The real answer was.... no it is not.
My only other goal in the matter was to make sure people knew there was a risk is freeze distillation, which there is of concentrated chemicals, most notably, methanol. This is the stuff that can make you go blind.


Listen,

1. You are a chemist major.... check back when you have the degree. As of now it isn't looking good for you in my mind. Yes the aspirin example was extreme, but concentrating volitals such as methonal, has real danger - which was really all I was trying to illustrate.
2. You are 19 and think you have the answers, but in fact your rebuttal had no answers, just assumptions.
3. There is a risk in concetrating distillate.... period
4. It is a felony violation to distill, including freeze distilation.... period. This supercedes state goverment regulation.
5. Once you get a little older you may realize that you have obligations to people other than yourself, and that, for the risk, putting up a still just isn't the right move.

Why don't you try and write back when you are of age.
Click to expand...

I'm not 19, I'm 21, and I do have the degree, in fact, I also have a computer science degree, and next quarter I will have my biology minor. I really don't care about the legal status of this, if it is illegal or legal, I couldn't care less, because I plan on doing it anyways(real distillation, not this freezing ****). I have Gastec Detector Tubes which I can find the amount of methanol, from which I'll determine if it's safe. Explain how concentrating these fusels is dangerous. I understand one instance where it may be considered more dangerous, that being the dose is equivalent in potency while being a much smaller volume, and people might accidentally drink too much without realizing it. In this case, you need to worry about alcohol poisoning foremost.

Instead of arguing, just tell me this. Do you believe that there is more harm in drinking a shot of applejack compared to drinking a glass of apple cider? If the alcohol levels are equivalent, the only difference is the amount of water you are drinking, I don't understand why you can't wrap your head around this.

Why does my age matter? You act me being 21 makes me so ignorant of the chemistry going on here, where I have actually been studying it for years, and as far as I know, you haven't. So tell me why this is wrong?
 
Optimus_Pwn "Do you believe that there is more harm in drinking a shot of applejack compared to drinking a glass of apple cider?"

I believe there is more concentration of freeze distilled methanol in 1 zo of ~200 proof spirit than in one 12 oz glass of cider 10% abv cider.... absolutely

Optimus - as I laboriously have been saying.....

The true risk is probably minimal. Probably the only issue you would have would be excessive consumption over years, leading to a problem. The truth is, your level of acceptable risk is different than many other people's acceptable level - so why must you push it on others? I am not pushing mine on yours. The literature is out there to highlight the risk of improper distillation.

In your case you are actually smart regarding your manner and choice or distillation. If you are gonna cross the line, at least pick a tool, as you say you have, that will render a safe and superb product (fractional heat distillation). I personally would go your route, before freezing after fermentation. It is a safer bet in my mind.

Like I said, it is illegal, there is a risk - let each individual decide our path based on facts.
 
CidahMastah said:
Optimus_Pwn said:
Do you believe that there is more harm in drinking a shot of applejack compared to drinking a glass of apple cider? If the alcohol levels are equivalent, the only difference is the amount of water you are drinking, I don't understand why you can't wrap your head around this.
QUOTE]

Optimus - as I laboriously have been saying.....

The true risk is probably minimal. Probably the only issue you would have would be excessive consumption over years, leading to a problem. The truth is, your level of acceptable risk is different than many other people's acceptable level - so why must you push it on others? I am not pushing mine on yours. The literature is out there to highlight the risk of improper distillation.

In your case you are actually smart regarding distillation. If you are gonna cross the line, at least pick a tool, as you say you have, that will render a safe and superb product. I personally would go your route, before freezing after fermentation. It is a safer bet in my mind.

Like I said, it is illegal, there is a risk - let each individual decide on facts.
Click to expand...

Look, you're missing my point. I don't care about its legality, I don't care who does and doesn't drink it. I don't even care if it is harmful. All I am trying to say is that drinking the cider, and drinking the applejack will provide no difference in harm/benefit.

Sorry if it seemed like I was against you protecting others, because I'm not. I'm purely talking about the differences between applejack, and cider. If you drinking several glasses of apple cider every day for 20 years, you are just as likely to go blind from drinking several shots of applejack every day. This is what I'm trying to say.
Click to expand...
 
Listen man - I hear you and I don't mean to come across the way I did. The whole thread started up about the legality and spawned off from there, so if you aren't concerned with that than we are aguing different points.

See my edits about your specific question - re: apple jack versus cider. I humbly disagree with your last point.

With your spirit you have concentrated it (according to my 10% example) by 90%. So one ounce would have 90% more methonal than the glass of cider. Do you see where i am coming from? my example worked from a near pure spirit (~200 proof) which you would probably only get about 180-190proof.

If you are talking about different values of proof then you have a point. But I know with me, I never have 1 oz of whiskey, I have a glass, so more like 3-4 oz per each drink. Based on the realistic consumption for me, I wouldn't mess with a freeze distillate. I would only do fractional heat.
 
CidahMastah said:
Listen man - I hear you and I don't mean to come across the way I did. The whole thread started up about the legality and spawned off from there, so if you aren't concerned with that than we are aguing different points.

See my edits about your specific question - re: apple jack versus cider. I humbly disagree with your last point.

With your spirit you have concentrated it (according to my 10% example) by 90%. So one ounce would have 90% more methonal than the glass of cider. Do you see where i am coming from? my example worked from a near pure spirit (~200 proof) which you would probably only get about 180-190proof.

If you are talking about different values of proof then you have a point. But I know with me, I never have 1 oz of whiskey, I have a glass, so more like 3-4 oz per each drink. Based on the realistic consumption for me, I wouldn't mess with a freeze distillate. I would only do fractional heat.
Click to expand...

I see what you're saying now, however that doesn't change what I said, nor prove it wrong. You're agreeing with me. Although, the one place you are wrong, is saying that 1oz has 90% more methanol. It has 90% more concentrated methanol, however, taking the volume into account, you have the exact same amount of methanol. Here is a simple molarity equation:

M1V1 = M2V2

M1 is the molarity of substance(moles per liter, or molecules per liter)
V1 is the volume
M2 and V2 self explanatory

With your behavioral explanation, I completely agree.

This will be my last post, I realize this post is off topic.
 
You are correct that it doesn't prove what effect the consumption of methanol would have. We can only lean on what literature suggests as far as how much would create side effects.

In you case, you should be able to remove any significant amount of methonal by discarding the foreshots.

So you sir.... are allowed to have a 3-4oz glass, repeatedly with only the standard alcohol risks, not the potential methonal risks.
 
CidahMastah said:
so I found what I had read from annie proulx book regarding the statutes for federal law and freeze distillation.
Click to expand...

The law quoted makes NO reference to freeze distillation. The author is simply making her own connection.

The ATF itself has said that freeze-distillation is fine as long as the alchohol levels stay within what you would expect to get from yeast.

There has been some specific rulings, such as ATF Ruling 94-3 which goes on to say "Ice Beer" is still beer.

Note: in regards to fusels, the percentage produced by the yeast is directly related to the temperature during primary fermentation. If you were really serious about making applejack, or ice beer, its probobly then a good idea to do the primary at the lowest possible temp for the yeast, just to be on the safe side.
 
HP_Lovecraft said:
The law quoted makes NO reference to freeze distillation. The author is simply making her own connection.

The ATF itself has said that freeze-distillation is fine as long as the alchohol levels stay within what you would expect to get from yeast.

There has been some specific rulings, such as ATF Ruling 94-3 which goes on to say "Ice Beer" is still beer.

Note: in regards to fusels, the percentage produced by the yeast is directly related to the temperature during primary fermentation. If you were really serious about making applejack, or ice beer, its probobly then a good idea to do the primary at the lowest possible temp for the yeast, just to be on the safe side.
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Mylanta dude..... she quoted the direct statute:

"the product derived by the drawing off of ethyl alcohol from a barrel of frozen hard cider would be considered distilled spirits as defined in 26 U.S.C 5002(a)(80)(A). It is unlawful to produce any distilled spirits at a place other than a qualified distilled spirits plant. To do so would be subject to the penalties of 26 U/S.C 560L"


This means... that the product derrived from freeze distillation (drawing ethyl alc off frozen fermented cider) would be consindered a distilled spirit as defined in 26 U.S.C. 5002(a)(80)(A). i.e. all the bolded text IS the statute, not the author's writing.

Your quote regarding ice beer has nothing to do with this. Beer is made from grains, and cider from apples. If you would take note, taxation and regulations for ciders and beers are often dealt with differently. This statute was specifically written to deal with freeze distilled cider

This time I am really done, I give up. No more posting on this.
 
Just one more thing and ill stop posting too,CidahMastah you said: "Probably the only issue you would have would be excessive consumption over years, leading to a problem"
I don't think this is true because methanol just like any alcohol is not accumulated in the body so it doesn't build up, other wise you would be drunk all the time but the liver breaks down methanol if its in small quantities so if you drink a little every day you wouldn't get sicker as time passes just like if you take an aspirin every day for one year instead of 365 at once.

And also methanol is more dangerous when in high concentrations and in the absence of ethanol because as far as I know ethanol is a cure for methanol.I found this on wikipedia(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanol#Health_and_safety):
"Methanol poisoning can be treated with the antidotes ethanol or fomepizole.Both of these drugs act to reduce the action of alcohol dehydrogenase on methanol by means of competitive inhibition, so that it is excreted by the kidneys rather than being transformed into toxic metabolites."
And also read this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1306022/

You also said that because apples are high in pectin you would get more methanol concentrations in cider, well what turns pectin into methanol?,not yeast through fermentation but pectic enzyme which is added by the homebrewer, if you don't add pectic enzyme to you're pasteurized apple juice there is a pectic haze after fermentation right? This means that the pectin wasn't turned into methanol,I never clear my cider with pectic enzyme because I think it's a useless harmful chemical and I don't get why some people are so fussy about the pectic haze and use the enzyme.

To conclude if cider is concentrated into applejack which is about 40% ABV
there is nowhere near enough methanol to cause methanol poisoning before normal alcohol poisoning sets in.
And I also object to the fact that you recommend heat distillation with a still instead of fractional freezing,the former is far more dangerous, if you don't know exactly what you're doing you can end up with a bomb or a fire and something that is far more toxic than fractional freezing the cider. When you freeze all you have to do is wait for it to freeze and then separate the ice from the liquid, if you ask me this is more safe.
Oh and if the ATF find a still in you're house "Lucy, you got some 'splainin' to do" but there is no way they can bust you for having cider in the fridge,are you saying distilled moonshine is safer than frozen applejack?
 
Ok so after I read some stuff on http://homedistiller.org/methanol.htm I found that methanol is in extremely low quantities in spirits:
"How dangerous are the various fusel oils ? I've got some of them listed below.
The ones with toxicity data listed are ...
* Methanol : usual fatal dose 100-250 mL
* 1-Pentanol : LD50 (rat) 3030 mg/kg
* 3-Pentanol : LD50 (rat) 1870 mg/kg

Compare this to the amounts present in distilled spirits. The data in Wheeler & Willmotts "Spirits unlimited - a complete guide to home distilling" gives :
* Home distilled spirit (untreated): methanol 0.0067%, ethanol 99.632%, fusils 0.361%
* Commercial vodka: methanol 0.013%, ethanol 99.507%, fusils 0.48%
* Poor quality home distilled spirit : methanol 0.0186%, ethanol 98.453%, and fusils 1.528%

If you're talking about untreated spirits as being dangerous, then to reach the LD50's that are published, you'd need to consume 149 L to be affected by the methanol, or for a 90kg bloke, about 58 L for the pentanol, from the "good" homemade stuff. That would be one hell of a session ! Even on their "poor quality" brew you'd need 11 L for the fusels. Stock standard pissed-as-a-newt high-school-student alcohol poisoning is the greater problem."

And as for the pectin issue:

"The methanol comes from the pectin, which mainly composed of methyl esters of galactose. When pectin breaks down, by enzymes introduced by microorganisms, or deliberately introduced, the methyl esters combine with water to produce methanol, so the aim should be to leave the pectin well alone if you can.
I think Jack would agree that what he means is that fermenting at a high temperature, or adding pectin enzyme, or trying for an abv higher than 12% all increase the risk of methanol being produced, so his advice about low temperature fermentation, adding no exra enzymes, and a target lower than 12%abv is all good stuff."

So in the end I also agree that freeze concentration is't all that bad, I mean if you concentrate a 10% cider to 30% ABV one glass of applejack would contain the same methanol as 3 glasses of cider and 2 glasses of applejack would be the same as 5-6 glasses of cider so about a quart,would a quart a cider give you methanol poisoning, most certainly not, would you drink more than 2 big wine glasses of 30% ABV applejack, well if you do you'll get realy drunk and pass out:D
Heat distillation with a still on the other hand is far more dangerous and highly illegal, moonshiners beware:mad:
 
CidahMastah said:
Mylanta dude..... she quoted the direct statute:

"the product derived by the drawing off of ethyl alcohol from a barrel of frozen hard cider would be considered distilled spirits as defined in 26 U.S.C 5002(a)(80)(A). It is unlawful to produce any distilled spirits at a place other than a qualified distilled spirits plant. To do so would be subject to the penalties of 26 U/S.C 560L"


This means... that the product derrived from freeze distillation (drawing ethyl alc off frozen fermented cider) would be consindered a distilled spirit as defined in 26 U.S.C. 5002(a)(80)(A). i.e. all the bolded text IS the statute, not the author's writing.

Your quote regarding ice beer has nothing to do with this. Beer is made from grains, and cider from apples. If you would take note, taxation and regulations for ciders and beers are often dealt with differently. This statute was specifically written to deal with freeze distilled cider

This time I am really done, I give up. No more posting on this.
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cidamastah did you actually look it up? I did. and its not what the statute says. The closest thing in the statute but is still not specific to fractional freezing is,

"(A) produces distilled spirits from any source or substance, (B) brews or makes mash, wort, or wash fit for distillation or for the production of distilled spirits (other than the making or using of mash, wort, or wash in the authorized production of wine or beer, or the production of vinegar by fermentation), (C) by any process separates alcoholic spirits from any fermented substance, or (D) making or keeping mash, wort, or wash, has a still in his possession or use."

That is straight from 26 U.S.C 5002(a)(80)(A). Now, it also says
"(8) Distilled spirits
The terms "distilled spirits", "alcoholic spirits", and
"spirits" mean that substance known as ethyl alcohol, ethanol, or
spirits of wine in any form (including all dilutions and mixtures
thereof from whatever source or by whatever process produced)."

Wouldn't that make, making wine at home illegal? No because clearly it is. If you are gonna quote a source, make damn sure the source is credible. I checked several websites and all were the same on the statute.

here are a couple of my sources.
http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/26/E/51/A/I/A/5002
http://vlex.com/vid/sec-definitions-19210923

The only thing ill give you is the possibility that when said book you obtained quote from, was written maybe the language in the statute was different. As I quoted it is the way it is right now.
 
Goaler - the quote was taken from a published book.... that is a credible source. Even your statute indicates "(C) by any process separates alcoholic spirits from any fermented substance" (Alcoholic spirits = ethanol)

By fitting the criteria of A, B, C, or D you would fit the definition of a distiller. To be a legal distiller you have to operate at a "qualified distilled spirits plant". To do otherwise would put offenders subject to the penalties of 26 U/S.C 560L.

(4) Distiller
The term "distiller" includes any person who -
(A) produces distilled spirits from any source or substance,
(B) brews or makes mash, wort, or wash fit for distillation
or for the production of distilled spirits (other than the
making or using of mash, wort, or wash in the authorized
production of wine or beer, or the production of vinegar by
fermentation),
(C) by any process separates alcoholic spirits from any
fermented substance, or
(D) making or keeping mash, wort, or wash, has a still in his
possession or use.


"any process" = freeze distillation, or freeze concentration or whatever you want to call it.

You just proved the legality issue, yet again, as being illegal. Thank you.

The book I quoted it from I referenced earlier on and the page I took it from (page 205 of Annie Proulx's well respected Cider making book).
 
goaler29 said:
That is straight from 26 U.S.C 5002(a)(80)(A). Now, it also says
"(8) Distilled spirits
The terms "distilled spirits", "alcoholic spirits", and
"spirits" mean that substance known as ethyl alcohol, ethanol, or
spirits of wine in any form (including all dilutions and mixtures
thereof from whatever source or by whatever process produced)."

Wouldn't that make, making wine at home illegal? No because clearly it is. If you are gonna quote a source, make damn sure the source is credible. I checked several websites and all were the same on the statute.
Click to expand...

You misread this IMO. I read this as any distilled spirits from any substance, including wines. The spirits they are refering to is specifically the ethonal (spirits = ethanol). So distilled spirits would be that ethanol wrought from the process of distillation, of any substance. That is my interprestation.
 
The point here isn't legality because some people might consider applejack to be a distilled spirit and some might consider it to be just fortified cider, if you mix a neutral grain spirit with cider to get it to 30%ABV and call it applejack would't it be the same thing as freeze concentrating cider in the eyes of the law?
The real point that affects you directly is if it's safe and based on what I read on http://homedistiller.org/methanol.htm I think it is.
 
Brew_Master said:
The point here isn't legality because some people might consider applejack to be a distilled spirit and some might consider it to be just fortified cider, if you mix a neutral grain spirit with cider to get it to 30%ABV and call it applejack would't it be the same thing as freeze concentrating cider in the eyes of the law?
The real point that affects you directly is if it's safe and based on what I read on http://homedistiller.org/methanol.htm I think it is.
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A huge part of this debate was the legality. Now that it is proven, you claim it doesn't matter? That makes little sense to me. According to this statute, freeze distillation/concentration etc., is as illegal as heat distillation.

This statute is defining what a distilled spirit is - see the previous post. Based on this definition, you become a distiller once you concentrate spirits through any method... and down the line.

Your second point is more about proving how the alcohol became concentrated, not about the legality. Those are two separate points.

I put that same link up in my previous posts. As a reader I believe people should read that (in its entirety) and make their own call. You are entitled to your opinion.
 
1. "are you saying distilled moonshine is safer than frozen applejack"

2.
Brew_Master said:
Heat distillation with a still on the other hand is far more dangerous and highly illegal, moonshiners beware:mad:
Click to expand...

What you guys are saying doesn't make good sense.

1. A properly used heat distillation is absolutely safer than freeze distillation. Why? because you can remove the methanol (which you cannot do in freeze distillation)

2. If you contend that using a heated still creates a dangerous product (to make apple jack), how can you say freeze distillation is not dangerous? By saying using a still could produce an unsafe product you are acknowledging that there is a dangerous aspect to all distillation (which I agree with). The difference being that:

A heated still has the option of separating your runs, and removing potentially harmful fusels and more importantly ethanol. If methanol is safe, why do all comercial distillers remove it (with heat distillation)?

You guys should really read that enitire URL posting from top to bottom, not cherry pick out a few lines here and there that suit your side of the debate.
 
This has been entertaining but, rather than argue over hearsay and opinions why don't you read all of the information on the government web site concerning distilled spirits. Then make your own opinions and come back and see how you are the same.
Here is the link to the government page designed for the Distilled Spirits industry.

http://www.ttb.gov/spirits/index.shtml

On here you can find lots of subjects of interest. By the way I do not have an opinion because I am not through reading these pages
 
If you're really worried about the methanol, why not boil it off? The methanol has a boiling point of 149 F. If you don't catch it, it's not distillation. After fermentation is complete, pour your cider back into the brewpot and heat it slowly while reading the temperature. If you can hold the temp at 150 while slowly stirring, all of the methanol will boil off leaving you with simply what you want. Ethanol doesn't boil until 173, so as long as you keep it below that, you won't lose what you're trying to concentrate. If you can keep the temp around 150 until all of the methanol boils off and then cool it back down to room temp, you would have a great apple jack precursor, completely free of potential blindness.
 
Most states offer a free distillation license for producing vehicle fuel at home. Just get one of those. I don't see why I couldn't run my truck on fuel made from apples? Maybe this will start an argument about what types of fuel alcohols are best and which are the most dangerous...
I find that well aged brandy makes my truck purr like a kitten.
 
BoomerCreek said:
Most states offer a free distillation license for producing vehicle fuel at home. Just get one of those. I don't see why I couldn't run my truck on fuel made from apples? Maybe this will start an argument about what types of fuel alcohols are best and which are the most dangerous...
I find that well aged brandy makes my truck purr like a kitten.
Click to expand...

first off saying a license to make fuel at home is free is like saying a free dog is free! Its not free! here is the link for the PDF for said license.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...3rUIYklG5Seh4gBsA&sig2=EiHgIwUWPx7CcDZSaHqFUQ

Considering what you read and the fact that the FEDS can come in any time to inspect you to make sure you are, in fact making fuel; really isnt worth it. Then there is the money involved making storage, a still that is approved, the safety regulations, and then your ingredients. All that combined leads to a fairly large investment to "make fuel". If you get caught consuming said fuel, you get a free ride to club fed! So if you really want to learn to distill go to homedistiller.org and read the forums. Secondly fractional freeze distillation is as illegal as vapor distillation in EVERY state. Plus fractional freezing does not eliminate the nasties that are created in the fermentation process. Thats why apple jack is almost always super harsh.
 
I'm not a fuel distiller nor do i care to do anything but instigate in this case. The argument going in this thread is too good to let it go. Have fun!
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamaica_ginger

I just got of the phone with an oooooollllllllldd friend of mine that works in a small craft distillery and he says the feds will tag you for anything distilled in any way over about 25% due to the fact that they dont know how you made itand all commercial have some dye in them that is seen under a black light.

Least thats what i was a told.

webby
 
So correct me if I am wrong here. All of those who say it is illegal. I bet none of you have ever intentionally sped even knowing the risk? Rolled a stop light. Anything technically illegal?

I would say it is more about the intent of the law. It is meant to protect the public, keep some sort of safety in the distillation process and collect a significant source of revenue (taxes) from the production and sale of spirits. It is one reason most ABC agents are called Revenuers.

That said production at home would be technically against the law regardless of method used. However if not sold and only consumed at home it is a victimless crime. Not long ago home brewing was also in some states. For the same reason. As a matter of fact none of us can sell our brew.

So where is the harm? I am tempted to try AJ when good fresh juice comes into season. Just to stay safe may try and keep it under 25%.

Peace from a new guy here......
 
I'm not saying i wont try it I would just be careful who you tell, it may not be a case of legality but if they think you doing something you shouldn’t be there may be heavy court time in you future.

Along that line is there a yeast that would yeild 18-20% in cider?
 
The guys over at Basic Brewing Video/Radio personally contacted the Feds and had it explained to them that the process of freeze concentrating was not illegal in any sense. Take it directly from the source that the TTB clearly stated that freeze concentration is perfectly acceptable and thusly, making applejack is as well in this manner.
 

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