lager yeast help!!!

hello, I posed this question in the introduction forum and got no response. So lets try again. In a nutshell my first attempt at brewing was a Munich Lager DME w/specialty grains,hops ,irish moss,and dry lager yeast. Boiled full 5 gallons, chilled to 75,poured into 6 gallon primary bucket, pitched yeast. This is where I went wrong. My instructions said to ferment at about 75 and that ideal fermentation should be at 45-55. I now understand that it should have been 75 until fermentation starts and then gradually cool to 45-55 for the duration. The weather was freezing at night so I used a warming pad designed this purpose. I left at probably 75 for 4-5 days and then the bubbling stopped completely.Then it was transferred to glass carboy. What kind of off flavors if any will I have from this warm/quick fermentation. Wiil extra aging/Lagering cure this. Please help. Thanks

lnmnmarty said:

What kind of off flavors if any will I have from this warm/quick fermentation. Wiil extra aging/Lagering cure this. Please help. Thanks

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You'll probably have a lot of esters and diacetyl. The latter may have been reduced already. Give it a taste and see what you have.

Lagering/aging will help a little with the diacetyl and higher alcohols. If you have the space, give it 4 more weeks at a temp below 55F I'd say and see what you get.

And try another lager in the mean time. My first lager was a Dunkelbock that was pretty much undrinkable after primary fermentation (way to many higher alcohols), but turned out decent after a month or so.

Kai

I'd say give it some time, but warm ferments can produce flavors that will not go away.

What would i be looking for in taste testing for esters and diacetyl?

You would get a fruity tasting brew with the esters IIRC and a buttery/butterscotch taste for the diacetyl.

When pitching dry yeast to a lager at lager fermenting tempertures, you should increase your pitching rate. This will let you get normal lag times for your cold wort.

Thanks guys.

you should also look for higher alcohols. They give the beer a sharp taste that may remind you of hard liquor or nail polish remover.

Kai

I normally don't stoop to these levels but what was your hydro reading *GASP*


The reason i ask, on my lager that i just transfered i decided to take a reading even though i had a lovely yeast cake on the bottom and it turns out that was a good idea. My OG on my czech pils was 1.045 and after 2 weeks and what i thought was a good ferment i was only at 1.032.

I did get lazy with the smack pack and even though it was not all the way blown up i pitched anyway (dumb ass move, but it was 2:00 in the morn)

So, as it sits in the secondary i have bumped the temp up to 60 and will wait to see what happens after 48 hours.

Reverend

A smack pack by itself is going to be vastly underpitching a 5g lager...most lager-heads are pitching 3-4L worth of starter yeast.

Baron von BeeGee said:

A smack pack by itself is going to be vastly underpitching a 5g lager...most lager-heads are pitching 3-4L worth of starter yeast.

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So, when you make these starters, are you fermenting at lager yeast temperatures? So far, I have made two lagers. I did both by just sprinkling Saflager -23 on top of the wort. In both cases, fermentation took a while to start, but it seemed to work well once it did.

Needless to say, I will do a starter for my next lager. Should I make a starter in the same manner as I once did, or should I ferment my starter at recommended temps. I figure that I could ferment warm and then pour off the beer from the starter as it will have some off-flavors. But . . . will the yeast be healthy at that point?

With dry lager yeast I'm not really sure what the cell counts are. I don't bother doing starters when I use S-56 because of the high cellcount which is one of the reasons I love it so much. Maybe it's not necessary with dry lager yeasts?

As far as temperature goes, to be honest, I'm not clear on that one myself. I do decant the wort so I'm inclined to think as you that it's okay to ferment "warmer" than at lager temps, although I've tried keeping it in the 60's. I know of people that insist on making their lager starters at lager fermenting temps but I'm afraid it would take a while. But maybe not.

sonvolt said:

Should I make a starter in the same manner as I once did, or should I ferment my starter at recommended temps. I figure that I could ferment warm and then pour off the beer from the starter as it will have some off-flavors. But . . . will the yeast be healthy at that point?

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This is yet another subject where there seems to be a divide among home brewers: What temp to propagate lager yeast at.

If you make a starter at room temp, the yeast will grow faster since it's metabolism works faster. You may get off-flavors, but if you let the stater ferment out, you can decant the beer (yes, this stuff is called beer) off the yeast.

If you propagate at lager fermentation temps (50's), the yeast will grow much slower.

I propagate lager yeast at lager fermentation temp. My thinking is, why do I want to get the yeast used to warmer temps if it will have to work in the upper 40s, lower 50s eventually. I also don't have the problem of shocking the yeast when I pitch the wort. Since it takes longer, I will have to start the process of propagating one week before brewing.

Professional breweries do also propagate at fermentation temps and some home brewers reported less flocculant yeast when they propagated warm.

What should you do? I don't think that it currently matters if you keep your starter warm or cold. Once you are more familliar with lagers you may want to pay attention to this. I suggest that you mark 100ml (~3oz) on your starter flask. This is the amount of yeast sediment that you need to properly pitch a 5gal batch of ~12*P lager.

Kai