Whats going wrong

Well this will be my 3rd batch of cider and I might just be doing something wrong that I'm not reading any where else , but I'm using 5 gallons of store-bought apple juice (I've tried three different brands and types all of them without preservatives) I'm using corn sugar to bring up my original gravity to somewhere between 1.090 and 1.080. I'm using white labs English cider yeast and then putting all of that into a 5 gallon fermenting bucket , I'm making sure everything is completely sanitized and clean, fermentation usually kicks off pretty quick and I let that go until about 1.020 (because I still want it sweet ) and then I add potassium sorbate to stop that, but in all three batches there's a very strong vinegar taste what am I doing wrong. Any help is appreciated thank you and sorry for being so long

Your getting an aecetobactor infection in there somehow. Post your sanitization practices so we can see if you're missing something.

I'm using B-T-F Iodophor Sanitizer. most of the time don't measure out the 1 tsp or what ever it is per gal of water I kinda wing it and then add a bit more , I do all of this in my primary bucket and put all the hoses and siphons in there everything that touches the cider I put in there for a while , splash every thing with my hand and make sure there's sanitizer solution in contact with everything, and another thing is I don't rinse, I just shake it off and go right to work

Gross I would recommend throwing out your cider. I've had this happen to me before what Revvy said is probably right. I'm no scientific genius or anything, but what I do know is it's some kind of nasty contaminated infection thing that you don't want to drink.

Ok , just seems odd to me that all my batches of beer always turn out great , but my last 3 attempts at cider have ended at the drain , I was just starting to wonder if it turning sour was a process that had to take place .

Have you tried a different yeast? Even if it says "No preservatives," if it's pasteurized it probably has some, since pasteurizing by boiling is time consuming and not worth it. Though, usually the small amount of preservatives added at pasteurization usually have no immediate effects (can make it start to taste vinegary after a year or so), your yeast could be reacting with it somehow, as could any yeast nutrients, though the former is highly doubtful, and the latter even more so. But I cannot see any other things that could be going on here. In fact, here's what I would recommend. Make one gallon batch doing everything the same except using a different yeast. Make another gallon batch and do everything the same except boil the apple juice for two minutes, probably killing all preservatives. If it helps than you know it was a problem with the yeast and/or secret preservatives. In fact, you might want to just scratch that. lol, sorry. Just boil the apple juice AND use a different yeast. Simpler that way. If it doesn't get better than you know some type of outside contamination is going on here that you don't know about.

"FYI - the geranium smell is from malolactic bacteria interacting with sorbate. Sorbate is sometimes attacked by malolactic bacteria. When the sorbate is broken down it will smell like Geranium leaves. Looks like you had some wild malolatic bacteria present in your cider (makes sense because your cider is fresh pressed). So it wasn't the sorbates fault, or an off flavor of the sorbate directly. I would assume that sulphiting at a full dose would have knocked out the malo bacteria." I stumbled across this info I guess just cold crash it then?

Bugeaud said:

Even if it says "No preservatives," if it's pasteurized it probably has some, since pasteurizing by boiling is time consuming and not worth it. .....do everything the same except boil the apple juice for two minutes

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I totally disagree with what you have said here. if there are no preservatives listed on the bottle than there will be NONE in the bottle. pasteurization is not done with chemicals but rather heat and is done AFTER the bottles are sealed when done commercially to create a sterol environment so the product can last on the shelf for years. I would pasteurize the apple Juice before you start, BUT DO NOT BOIL IT. Mix your fermentables (and acid blend if you are using it) with the juice and then use a candy thermometer and heat up the mix to 160º F then when you pore it in to your sanitized jug it will continue to sanitize the jug with the heat. let it cool add any pectic enzyme or yeast nutrient and then pitch the yeast 24 hours later. boiling the juice will change the flavor. Also you did not mention an air lock, I am assuming you are uising one???

I wouldn't boil the juice... it's already pasteurized.

What can be gained?

acowutter said:

I'm using corn sugar to bring up my original gravity to somewhere between 1.090 and 1.080.

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I got to thinking about what you said and are you sure it is vinegar you are tasting??? Your SG would put you %ABV some where in the 10 to 12% range depending on where you stop the fermenting. Most store bought ciders are between 5% and 7% Because a lot of beer makers make hard cider it is not thought of as what it really is which is a fruit wine. With fruit wines if you do not let them age you will get a strong alcohol taste that can be off-putting and almost acidic like a vinegar. Take the cider flavors and add a strong alcohol flavor and you will end up with something that tastes similar to cider vinegar. Let it age a little bit and you will have something more along the lines of a strong hard cider.

This may not be the case at all and it may be getting contaminated and turning in to vinegar but it is a possible reason why all three batches turned out bad.

Oh yes I'm using an air lock , and your right I was going for a strong AVB so I guess that could be what I'm tasting , and I'm Not seeing the need to heat to 160 , would this be to just make sure there is no bacteria that I may have missed ?

And what I'll do is try 2 or 3 small one gal batches and use different amounts of sugar and or none at all and see what the out come is and I'll keep you posted

acowutter said:

I'm Not seeing the need to heat to 160 , would this be to just make sure there is no bacteria that I may have missed ?

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I don't see the need to heat either. You got similar results with three different brands of juice, so I don't see how the juice could be the culprit.

I'm not a big fan of English cider yeast. You may want to try a different yeast and a different sugar if you're going to experiment.

acowutter said:

Oh yes I'm using an air lock , and your right I was going for a strong AVB so I guess that could be what I'm tasting , and I'm Not seeing the need to heat to 160 , would this be to just make sure there is no bacteria that I may have missed ?

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The 160 is as much about the Juice as it is about the fermenter and what you are adding. by getting the juice up to 160 mixing everything in except any yeast, nutrient, or enzymes and putting it in your sanitized bottle hot, you are sterilizing it all the bottle the sugar you added and the juice. Like I said before I don't think it is vinegar but if it is getting it all up to 160 will insure that there is no contamination, so you can know for sure.

I haven't gone through this personally, but my understanding is that if you get a vinegar infection (and it doesn't sound like you are 100% certain that's what it is at this point) then it's really hard to be sure you have gotten rid of it from your equipment, do you have any way to start a batch without using any hardware from your initial attempts?

Cheers

HW

My very first batch of cider went to vinegar , I did periodic little tasting and it was deffenatley a very strong flavor , so I know what that tastes like , all I was saying is that it's a posabilty it was the AVB

acowutter said:

My very first batch of cider went to vinegar , I did periodic little tasting and it was deffenatley a very strong flavor , so I know what that tastes like , all I was saying is that it's a posabilty it was the AVB

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Also , I'll make sure I use to use different techniques when I am sanitizing and fermenting my small test batches

Witch yeast would you recommend , I know I hear Nottingham a lot

Are you guys sure it's really a "vinegar" taste and not just malic acid? My cider was lemon juice tart for the first 2 months due to the acid content, and only now in the 3rd month it is starting to mellow. You get some malolactic secondary fermentation that converts some of that acid to lactose, and the cider mellows considerably. This takes time though, several months. How long are you aging the cider before judging its quality?

I guess I'm judging it too early because last time I did my little tastings it was about a month to a month a half into it. And the sour ness just kept getting stronger ,

I find it interesting that people are talking about pasteurizing and nobody's called attention to his sanitation. Sanitizer's should always be measured to be assured of their efficacy and Iodophor needs to be rinsed since iodine is actually toxic (and not delicious)
I think you need to tighten up you sanitation practices. Ciders are pretty transparent flavor-wise and you may be catching some flavours that you don't notice in your beers.

I will deffenatly tighten up my sanitation , but on my bottle of sanatazer . It does say that there is no need to rinse , but I will always measure and rinse from now on , or , just switch to star San or something

Holy crap...

I used Iodophor for years w/o rinsing, with no problems. Unless your gonna boil the water first, I think rinsing is a risk. The water coming out of your kitchen faucet isn't sterilized.

In your original post you stated that you ferment to 1.020 and then add potassium sorbate to halt fermentation. Is that working for you? How much are you adding? Sorbate should not be able to stop a fermentation, since it only keeps the yeast from reproducing. It doesn't kill the yeast.

Im only adding about 4 1/2 -5 tsp ( sorta hard to measure unless I'm weighing it out in grams) but yeah it works fine for my sweetness level I wanted , and I usually would just rerack it and drink it before anything was an issue , but I only did that for one of the batches ( it worked out ok )..

So I guess bottom line is that I'm really not doing any thing wrong process wise , besides, Posablely my sanitation habits??

acowutter said:

Im only adding about 4 1/2 -5 tsp ( sorta hard to measure unless I'm weighing it out in grams) but yeah it works fine for my sweetness level I wanted , and I usually would just rerack it and drink it before anything was an issue , but I only did that for one of the batches ( it worked out ok )..

So I guess bottom line is that I'm really not doing any thing wrong process wise , besides, Posablely my sanitation habits??

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I think 5 tsp of sorbate is way too much. That's one tsp per gallon. I have two bottles of sorbate. The directions on one says 1/2 tsp per gallon and the other says 1/4 tsp per gallon. You might want to check the directions on yours.

Sorbate does not stop fermentation, nor does it kill yeast. To keep your cider from fermenting too dry, I'd suggest stopping fermentation by cold crashing the cider. The yeast will become dormant and drop out of suspension. Then, rack off the sediment. This will leave most of the yeast behind. Then, you can add the sorbate if you like.