Has anyone added a 30a breaker to the 50a GFI spa panel?

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jeffmeh

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A few inquiries have come up within the past few weeks, where people have had 40a or 50a breakers in the main panel, but wanted a 30a rated control panel. Certainly one way to achieve this would be to add a 30a breaker to a 50a GFI spa panel, like the Midwest one. For example, the load would come through the 50a GFI breaker then through the 30a breaker.

Has anyone built something like this? If so, any insights into the build? E.g., how did you mount the 30a breaker?
 
My Home Depot spa panel has room for several additional breakers.

What do you mean by 'main panel'? I have a 30-amp circuit, into which I plug a 50-amp spa panel, which I used to GFCI-protect my brewing setup. I don't see the need for an additional 30A breaker in the spa panel. Although I guess in theory if you wanted to run other things off the 50A circuit in your main panel, you could do it. But otherwise why not just replace the breaker in the 'main panel' with a 30A one?
 
jeffmeh,

Just to give you a heads up on this:

power-panel-6.jpg


Take a close look at the internals of the Spa Panel -

There is a position for an additional 240V 2 pole breaker above the GFCI breaker - BUT - the power feed for it comes from the same power feed input to the GFCI breaker.

In other words - the second breaker will not be GFCI protected.

P-J
 
jeffmeh,

Just to give you a heads up on this:

power-panel-6.jpg


Take a close look at the internals of the Spa Panel -

There is a position for an additional 240V 2 pole breaker above the GFCI breaker - BUT - the power feed for it comes from the same power feed input to the GFCI breaker.

In other words - the second breaker will not be GFCI protected.

P-J

Thanks. It does look like there might be enough room to mount another 30a breaker in the top right, perhaps a mini breaker on a short DIN rail. Does that sound feasible?

The "main panel" in this context would be whatever circuit breakers are upstream of the spa panel, which would normally be the circuit panel that feeds the home or apartment, but could be a subpanel.

As to why not to just swap out the larger breaker in the main panel, it could be that 40a or 50a are required for another appliance, or that it is an apartment and the brewer/tenant cannot alter the wiring.
 
Sorry I don't understand the reasoning behind this, what do you mean by a 30A rated panel? I would imagine that any savings in being able to use a lighter wire gauge would be eaten up by the cost of the breaker.
 
I've been contemplating this exact thing. I'm just going to say F it and buy a 30 amp gfi breaker for my main panel. I know the spa panel is the cheaper route for the gfci protection, but I don't need a 50 amp breaker, I need a 30 amp.

These things are stupid expensive though... :-\
 
Thanks. It does look like there might be enough room to mount another 30a breaker in the top right, perhaps a mini breaker on a short DIN rail. Does that sound feasible?

...
Now that is a very doable idea. Just mount the DIN rail 240V 30A breaker (upper right) and feed it from the GFCI output within the panel

With that plan you would have the 30A GFCI protected power feed to your rig. Another thought is that if you decide to reconfigure your brewery, you still have the power (40A or 50A) with GFCI protection available for your controller.

I TAG this idea "Brilliant".

Let me know.. (Please)

P-J
 
I've been contemplating this exact thing. I'm just going to say F it and buy a 30 amp gfi breaker for my main panel. I know the spa panel is the cheaper route for the gfci protection, but I don't need a 50 amp breaker, I need a 30 amp.

These things are stupid expensive though... :-\

Read the reply I just posted...
 
FYI if you go the DIN route make sure you get a UL489 DIN breaker vs the more common UL1077 DIN breaker.

UL489 is meant for branch circuit protection.
 
...With that plan you would have the 30A GFCI protected power feed to your rig. Another thought is that if you decide to reconfigure your brewery, you still have the power (40A or 50A) with GFCI protection available for your controller...

But what is the cost benifit of doing this? You are spending money on another breaker, DIN rail, wiring in the spa panel.
The alternative is the cost of running your cable in a heavier gauge.
What is the expected cost for each option assuming typical cable lengths from panel to rig 10-15'?
 
But what is the cost benifit of doing this? You are spending money on another breaker, DIN rail, wiring in the spa panel.
The alternative is the cost of running your cable in a heavier gauge.
What is the expected cost for each option assuming typical cable lengths from panel to rig 10-15'?

From what I've seen, the cost of the spa panel, a regular 30 amp breaker, some short lengths of wire and a DIN rail are still cheaper than a quality 30 amp gfci breaker alone. Plus you're getting the option of expandability in the future if you want to "step up."
 
From what I've seen, the cost of the spa panel, a regular 30 amp breaker, some short lengths of wire and a DIN rail are still cheaper than a quality 30 amp gfci breaker alone. Plus you're getting the option of expandability in the future if you want to "step up."
Another HUGE plus is not having to modify the building wiring and/or change outlets et.al. Especially if the situation is that it is rental (apartment) property when any modification is strongly prohibited..

P-J
 
The cost comparison is a very reasonable question. That said, one of the posters did not want to build the panel himself, but wanted to purchase one of the highgravitybrew.com ones. Not that there would not be some building to effect this in the spa panel....

Also, I always felt a bit queasy about wiring everything with 10awg using the 50a spa panel, even though it is perfectly safe if the main breaker is 30a. What would not be safe is moving it to a circuit on a 50a breaker, as unlikely as that is to happen "inadvertently." In effect, we would be modifying the spa panel to match the control panel. That said, I would only do it if I needed to run off a breaker above 30a.
 
I've been contemplating this exact thing. I'm just going to say F it and buy a 30 amp gfi breaker for my main panel. I know the spa panel is the cheaper route for the gfci protection, but I don't need a 50 amp breaker, I need a 30 amp.

These things are stupid expensive though... :-\

Lemme know what type of breaker you need. My father is cleaning out his tool room and has a bunch if breakers he wants me to sell
 
Lemme know what type of breaker you need. My father is cleaning out his tool room and has a bunch if breakers he wants me to sell

Thanks man. I'd be looking for a Square D 30 amp gfi. Let me know if you stumble upon one.
 
There could be a HUGE cost savings here by dropping down to 30Abefore leavng the SPA panel depending on your situation.

You can get little panel mount circuit breakers rated for 30A for like $5-$7 last time I looked. Drop in a couple of those (one for each hot line) and you spent $10 or $15 total to drop down to 30A.

Now consider what I have seen a bunch of times, which is that people have a loooooooooooooooooooong cable running from the spa panel to the system control box. These cables can get stupid expensive, and if you are running a long length of it from the spa panel to the brewery, you will definitely recoup the $10-$15 you spend on the little breakers by buying a long 30A rated cable instead of a long 50A rated cable.
 
There could be a HUGE cost savings here by dropping down to 30Abefore leavng the SPA panel depending on your situation.

You can get little panel mount circuit breakers rated for 30A for like $5-$7 last time I looked. Drop in a couple of those (one for each hot line) and you spent $10 or $15 total to drop down to 30A.

UL489 breakers are a bit more expensive ($30-40) the $6 ones are usually UL1077's.

If you want cheap a fuse would likely be a better approach. You still have the 50A to function as a disconnect.
 
There could be a HUGE cost savings here by dropping down to 30Abefore leavng the SPA panel depending on your situation.

You can get little panel mount circuit breakers rated for 30A for like $5-$7 last time I looked. Drop in a couple of those (one for each hot line) and you spent $10 or $15 total to drop down to 30A.
UL489 breakers are a bit more expensive ($30-40) the $6 ones are usually UL1077's.

If you want cheap a fuse would likely be a better approach. You still have the 50A to function as a disconnect.
This 2 POLE 30A B CURVE breaker is well suited for mounting in the Spa Panel. It is a UL1077 device that functions as needed for this application without issues or problems. Plus - it is DIN rail mountable & for $17.50 it is a great deal.
 
This 2 POLE 30A B CURVE breaker is well suited for mounting in the Spa Panel. It is a UL1077 device that functions as needed for this application without issues or problems. Plus - it is DIN rail mountable & for $17.50 it is a great deal.

I like that. So I could add this to my spa panel and run a 30A feed from the 50A GFI already in the panel??
 
Educate me. I'm not really familiar with UL ratings, so what is the difference between UL489 and UL1077?

I'm trying to google it, but not really finding much.

edit: nevermind. If I change my search to "UL489 vs UL1077" I get some info.
 
Educate me. I'm not really familiar with UL ratings, so what is the difference between UL489 and UL1077?

I'm trying to google it, but not really finding much.

edit: nevermind. If I change my search to "UL489 vs UL1077" I get some info.

There is a comparison in this document, in case anyone else is interested. http://www.automationdirect.com/static/specs/suppprot1p3p.pdf

Short answer: UL489 for branch circuit protection, UL1077 for supplementary protection.

So for this application can we consider it supplementary protection because we already have a breaker in the main panel providing branch circuit protection? That would make sense to me.
 
This would enable using 10awg and 30a rated receptacles and plugs, from the 50a receptacle, to the 50a GFI spa panel with the supplementary 30a breaker, to the control panel, to the heating elements. I would expect that to be significantly less expensive than having to use 6awg and 50a rated receptacles and plugs.

Edit: And easier to work with....
 
There is a comparison in this document, in case anyone else is interested. http://www.automationdirect.com/static/specs/suppprot1p3p.pdf

Short answer: UL489 for branch circuit protection, UL1077 for supplementary protection.

So for this application can we consider it supplementary protection because we already have a breaker in the main panel providing branch circuit protection? That would make sense to me.
That is it exactly.

The breakers mounted within the controller or within the Spa Panel are placed for device protection.
 
Here's the most concise thing I found. (Not saying it's correct, but it is clear and concise):

taken from here, emphasis added by me: http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=66983

UL489 breakers can be used to meet the requirements of NEC branch circuit protective devices. UL1077 devices can be used as a supplement to a UL489 device. If the circuit wiring leaves the control cabinet it must be protected, somewhere upstream, by a UL489 device. If the circuit does not leave the control cabinet a UL1077 device may be applicable.

In this situation, the wiring is going to leave the cabinet (the spa panel). That requires a UL489 device somewhere upstream. If the main GFCI breaker in the spa panel is a UL489 device (which it should be based on what I was reading), then a UL1077 device is fine to use to drop the current to 30A before leaving the spa panel.

Or did I get that wrong?
 
...
Or did I get that wrong?
You have it right. I do have one diversion on the whole thing though. The power feed to the Spa Panel and the controller terminates with a outlet where the Spa Panel &/or the controller plugs into. With that said, the NEC rules really ended at the outlet.

Just saying...
 
That is it exactly.

The breakers mounted within the controller or within the Spa Panel are placed for device protection.

If your going to drop the wire size from the GFCI panel (50A breaker) it needs to be UL489. As mentioned above UL489 is to meet NEC requirement. NEC requires a 30A overcurrent protector for your 10gauge wire from the modified GFCI, a UL1077 device does NOT satisfy this requirement.

As mentioned UL1077 is supplemental protection, meaning you already have some other protection. If you are dropping to 30A with the supplemental protection you have NO primary protection at 30A. This is like saying you can use UL1077 breakers off your bus bar's in your panel because you have the 100/200A main breaker....

This is a very common mistake and I see it done in industry alot as well (and fails panel certification)

If you want to do it cheap, what about a Fused disconnect they sell for Air conditioners/etc?

EDIT: Yes, NEC ends at outlet but then UL panel specifications are supposed to take over (in industry), but as most people don't usually have access or desire to follow they stick with the NEC. Certaintly you can do whatever you want we are not building industrial panels here. So if you don't follow it thats your choice, but that doesnt change the facts.

EDIT2: Why not something like this, with a small peice of 6AWG wire and a short conduit to connect the two panels. Physically bigger, but cheap. http://www.homedepot.com/p/t/202106...gId=-1&storeId=10051&N=5yc1vZbm0h&R=202106492 Modifying the GFCI panel is also likely a bit of an issue.... You can usually also get single breaker panels/disconnects cheaply as well (http://www.homedepot.com/p/t/100177...gId=-1&storeId=10051&N=5yc1vZbm2w&R=100177812), and you could throw a regular 30A breaker in it (still going to be a bit more money though)
 
If your going to drop the wire size from the GFCI panel (50A breaker) it needs to be UL489. As mentioned above UL489 is to meet NEC requirement. NEC requires a 30A overcurrent protector for your 10gauge wire from the modified GFCI, a UL1077 device does NOT satisfy this requirement.

As mentioned UL1077 is supplemental protection, meaning you already have some other protection. If you are dropping to 30A with the supplemental protection you have NO primary protection at 30A. This is like saying you can use UL1077 breakers off your bus bar's in your panel because you have the 100/200A main breaker....

This is a very common mistake and I see it done in industry alot as well (and fails panel certification)

If you want to do it cheap, what about a Fused disconnect they sell for Air conditioners/etc?

EDIT: Yes, NEC ends at outlet but then UL panel specifications are supposed to take over (in industry), but as most people don't usually have access or desire to follow they stick with the NEC. Certaintly you can do whatever you want we are not building industrial panels here. So if you don't follow it thats your choice, but that doesnt change the facts.

EDIT2: Why not something like this, with a small peice of 6AWG wire and a short conduit to connect the two panels. Physically bigger, but cheap. http://www.homedepot.com/p/t/202106...gId=-1&storeId=10051&N=5yc1vZbm0h&R=202106492 Modifying the GFCI panel is also likely a bit of an issue.... You can usually also get single breaker panels/disconnects cheaply as well (http://www.homedepot.com/p/t/100177...gId=-1&storeId=10051&N=5yc1vZbm2w&R=100177812), and you could throw a regular 30A breaker in it (still going to be a bit more money though)

Thanks Allan. I'm curious though, what is the point of a UL1077 breaker if you cannot depend upon it to trip when its rating is exceeded? Or to put it another way, if I already have, say, a 30a breaker providing branch circuit protection, why would I bother putting in an additional UL1077 30a breaker?
 
There are a few scenarios. Mainly when the feed does NOT leave the control panel they can/are used. Like to provide a 5a feed to a Plc inside a control panel. Anti-condensate heaters within panels, etc etc. I see them often used also primarily as a disconnect within the panel for maintenance.

Google UL489 vs ul1077 the manufacture usually put out decent explanations. The risk is pretty low, I just wanted anyone interested to know what the rules would be. It's up to you how far you want to take it. Once you modify the spa panel and add any breaker you've likely voided the rating anyway (ul489 or ul1077).

Edit: missed one of your questions. You can rely on it to trip under certain scenarios. Again it's another case of what a product is certified to do, not necessarily what it's likely to so.
 
Sorry to rake over this... I am confused.

I have a 50A range cable supplying my control panel from a 50A spa panel. I want 30A breakers within the control panel itself to protect the heating elements as well as the plugs, sockets, and cables that supply the elements. Is it OK if the breakers inside the control panel are ul1077?
 
Sorry to rake over this... I am confused.

I have a 50A range cable supplying my control panel from a 50A spa panel. I want 30A breakers within the control panel itself to protect the heating elements as well as the plugs, sockets, and cables that supply the elements. Is it OK if the breakers inside the control panel are ul1077?
Absolutely. No problem at all.
 
hope someone is still watching this one.

I have a 50 amp spa panel feeding off a 60 amp breaker from my homes main panel. the spa panel works fine and is all wired up to brew on. I wanted to add some regular 110 outlets just below the spa panel in the garage, is it possible to wire a single pole breaker into the spa panel?

my panel is nearly identical to the one in post # 5
 
hope someone is still watching this one.

I have a 50 amp spa panel feeding off a 60 amp breaker from my homes main panel. the spa panel works fine and is all wired up to brew on. I wanted to add some regular 110 outlets just below the spa panel in the garage, is it possible to wire a single pole breaker into the spa panel?

my panel is nearly identical to the one in post # 5

I don't see why not. If you want it to be protected by the GFCI in the spa panel, you would split the output (one H and N), run it to a 15a or 20a breaker, then out of the panel with a ground wire off the ground bus, to your outlet box. As we discussed earlier in the thread, you should be able to fit a DIN breaker in the upper right of the spa panel.

If you want to bypass the spa panel GFCI, you would have to split one hot before the GFCI breaker, and run that and a neutral from the neutral bus through the breaker, and run the output and a ground from the ground bus, to your outlet box. You could use GFCI outlets in that case, if you wanted.

I think I have this right, but as always, IANAE. :)
 
So I would just cut and pigtail another line into a hot and the neutral wires leading to my dryer outlet and wire those to the new outlets, sounds like it might work. I will give it a try tomorrow.

thanks
 
well, that didn't work. I used a 30 amp dual pole din breaker( an eaton wmzs2c30), ran a line from neutral line out of the gfci breaker, and one hot from the gfci to the new breaker, then out to the outlets. POP go the breakers.
 
well, that didn't work. I used a 30 amp dual pole din breaker( an eaton wmzs2c30), ran a line from neutral line out of the gfci breaker, and one hot from the gfci to the new breaker, then out to the outlets. POP go the breakers.

Check all the wiring. This should really be no different than splitting off 120v from a hot and a neutral inside the control panel, yes?

Was there any load on the outlet, or did the breakers flip with no load? Both breakers flipped?

Incidentally, what type of receptacles are you using for the 120v outlet? Using a 30a breaker, you should be using 30a rated receptacles.
 
I have 30 amp plugs, i got it all worked out. the single pole breaker does wire just like it would in any other panel, I had a wiring issue at the outlets.
 
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