Discuss: Pump Priming

So I'm pretty much where I want to be with my recirculating IC whirlpool chiller setup, and love it to death so far, but the one area where I feel like I could use some improvement is priming the pump. Several times, I've been able to prime it by simply closing the valve at the kettle, turning the pump on the try to start a vacuum, then opening the valve and letting it pull. That works probably 70% of the time. The rest of the time, I have to suck on the output end really quickly, which isn't a big deal because the near-boiling wort will quickly sanitize it again, but I'd rather not have to bother with this crap. I've seen talk of bleeder valves and stuff, and something about a wort wizard, but I'd like to figure out what the best way to upgrade here, before I make the move. So...whatcha got for me?

I brew in the basement now so what I've started to do is to use the vinyl tube from the faucet (used to clean/fill HLT) and push water through the pump into the HLT, turn off the pump once water is flowing. Then I try to never loose prime... cause then I end up squeezing the hose a whole lot to get it started again. This is with a modified taco-bronze circulation pump.

I built a fitting that converts my garden hose QD style to my brewrig QD style so that I can quickly push tap water through my pump lines/housing. Water under that kind of pressure just blasts the air out of the pump housing.

I know others have mounted the pump vertically with the motor up, pump head down. I can see how this would help, but it requires you to disconnect when you want to oil the bearings.

Finally, putting a TEE on the output of the pump prior to your ball valve and installing a pull-vent valve might help and it's something I've been thinking about trying. I was also thinking this would be helpful on the pump input side, but at the QD where I attach to the "from vessel". The reason is, even when the pump is primed already and you just connected to a new vessel, you'll get a pocket of air in the line when you first open the valve. I'd like to be able to vent it so that the pump doesn't lose prime.

I don't use mine for transferring water from the HLT, I just use it to recirc the wort after the boil, and then to transfer that wort to the fermenters once it's chilled. So I don't think pumping tap water through it would be the best idea. I recirc some star san through before brew day, then recirc'ing the near-boiling wort does the rest.

I just place the end of the OUT hose lower than my fluid level, filling the pump and hose, turn off the valve at the pump (to lock in the liquid) then connect the QD... tada, instant prime. Prime once like that and I am good to go.

Since I use the same hoses for input and output through the entire brew, once I have a prime, I never lose it. Simply using gravity seems to work for me.

How do you have your pump head oriented?

For easiest priming, the input should be down, and the output should be up.

The next best thing is to have the input on the left, and the output on the right. I use this orientation, because I can't physically mount mine using the "proper" orientation.

I use a bleeder valve:

The bleeder valve is the needle valve hanging off to the right.

Well you could put a Safety Siphon on the wort in side or have it pull from the ice water to get that pump primed.

The Pol said:

I just place the end of the OUT hose lower than my fluid level, filling the pump and hose, turn off the valve at the pump (to lock in the liquid) then connect the QD... tada, instant prime. Prime once like that and I am good to go.

Click to expand...

This is what I do currently as well, but I feel as though there is a better way... I want to try the vent valve idea.

Steve,

What are the part #s for the bleeder valves that you're using? I have my pump mounted input on left, output on right so your system closely mirrors mine.

Evan!,

This is my set-up

I have no problems with priming. The HLT is on the right and the boil kettle on the left. Each vessel has a dip tube inside that goes almost to the bottom. For easy priming, the water/wort level in each vessel must be above that vessel's valve. I open the valve on the pump (with the pump off) and then open the valve on the vessel. Water/wort travels down to the pump by gravity, into it and then up the outlet. Then the pump gets turned on and if the flow isn't strong enough due to air pockets, I turn the pump off, let the air rise out of the head for a couple seconds and turn it back on. It's usually good to go but sometimes I have to turn it on and off 2 or 3 times. I use it to pump HLT water to the cooler MLT and to pump through a cfc.

That was the last time that traceable is getting used if you can see it there on the right of the cooler

I wish I could find it on Mcmaster's site again but I found a simple and cheap brass manual vent valve with 1/2" NPT that even had a length of cable on it for momentarily actuating it. Either they don't stock it anymore or I'm not using the right keywords.

dstar26t said:

Evan!,

This is my set-up

I have no problems with priming. ....................It's usually good to go but sometimes I have to turn it on and off 2 or 3 times. I use it to pump HLT water to the cooler MLT and to pump through a cfc.

Click to expand...

I'd argue that even going through that process is "a problem" and I'm tired of having to do it. There's got to be a better, more repeatable way because there are times when I lose prime from sucking air or whatever and need to quickly reprime.

Having your pump on a switch rather than unplugging it every time you want to stop it, is a luxury too... and in some cases helps with obtaining a prime if you are trying to get the last couple bubbles out.

Overall, the pump is pretty easy to prime IMHO.

Bobby_M said:

I'd argue that even going through that process is "a problem" and I'm tired of having to do it.

Click to expand...

I agree with that statement completely. If the aim of having a pump is ease of use and convenience, then there has to be an easier way. I'm leaning toward using a bleeder valve myself.

Are you guys losing prime after the pump has been primed?

I loose prime sometimes when pumping from the MLT to the boil kettle if i don't carefully watch it (I bet I'd have a really hard time with a cream ale cause it is hard for me to see the liquid level in my silicone tubing with a pale ale)

Oh and my dip tubes often seem to have air in them (locked in from when it was empty and I filled from the top) so I'm planning on doing a cheap bottom mount drain, look for a how-to thread soon... if it works.

I use a tee on the output side with a ball valve to vent out any air. No problems.

^me too. It's always when draining from the MLT or getting the last bit out of the HLT. I usually catch it, but I'm a scatterbrain.

Bobby_M said:

I wish I could find it on Mcmaster's site again but I found a simple and cheap brass manual vent valve with 1/2" NPT that even had a length of cable on it for momentarily actuating it. Either they don't stock it anymore or I'm not using the right keywords.

Click to expand...

that would be badass...let me know if you find it.

I even had a picture of it in my gallery... grrrr..

Bobby_M said:

I even had a picture of it in my gallery... grrrr..

Click to expand...

This looks about right:
McMaster-Carr

The cable pull one apparently can't be disassembled for cleaning, while another one on that page can be. I don't know how important that is to you.

I don't have any pumps in my 'so-easy-a-caveman-could-do-it' rig but do you think an Air-release or Degassing valve would work? They have a float inside and vent gas until liquid lifts the float...closing the valve.

A little info here.

EDIT: FWIW, if you didn't know, hot liquids are more apt to gas off when you pull vacuum on them so they are harder to prime. They just keep gassing off and the pump keeps cavitating. I dunno why I'm mentioning this. Just try pumping Freon or any other uber-volatile solvent through SS pipes that have been baking in the Florida sun all day...fun, fun, fun.

lustreking said:

This looks about right:
McMaster-Carr

The cable pull one apparently can't be disassembled for cleaning, while another one on that page can be. I don't know how important that is to you.

Click to expand...

Thanks, what a weird place/name for it. Cable pull stop cock.

49375K15
Drain-Thru-Handle Stop Cock Cable Pull, Internal Seal, 1/4" NPT Male
In stock at $5.92 Each

lustreking said:

This looks about right:
McMaster-Carr

The cable pull one apparently can't be disassembled for cleaning, while another one on that page can be. I don't know how important that is to you.

Click to expand...

good job, LK! I think I might just get that one, along with a tee.

EDIT: note that that's a 1/4" NPT only. So if you want to put it inline, you need a reducing tee (assuming everyone's using 1/2" because that's what the pump is) like a-so: 4429K226

lustreking said:

This looks about right:
McMaster-Carr

The cable pull one apparently can't be disassembled for cleaning, while another one on that page can be. I don't know how important that is to you.

Click to expand...

I must be missing something. How does that valve stop the liquid from flowing through the inline 'tee'? From the McMaster description, it sounds like the valve vents through the handle.

It doesn't. The point of that pull valve would be to allow a least path of resistance for air bubbles to escape. You'll still need an inline ball valve to regulate flow of liquid out of the pump. If the loop gets airlocked, you'd pull that valve open until it spits.

So is this the solution for simplifying the pump? I am wanting to add one someday to my setup (once I get a setup) but it sounds like the problems you're all talking about makes it more of a PITA then just using a gravity system.

Bobby_M said:

It doesn't. The point of that pull valve would be to allow a least path of resistance for air bubbles to escape. You'll still need an inline ball valve to regulate flow of liquid out of the pump. If the loop gets airlocked, you'd pull that valve open until it spits.

Click to expand...

You think that thing would work the same if you didn't have a ball valve at the pump? I just have one at the kettle, that's it. I could easily add one, but it just seems like the hardware assembly is getting a little heavy there (tee for the pull valve, then nipple, then ball valve, then QD). Gonna look like a goddamned refinery hooked up to my pump

IrregularPulse said:

So is this the solution for simplifying the pump? I am wanting to add one someday to my setup (once I get a setup) but it sounds like the problems you're all talking about makes it more of a PITA then just using a gravity system.

Click to expand...

I was a little more patient last friday, and opened the kettle valve to let the liquid flow via gravity to the pump before turning it on. I had an instant prime...so maybe I was just overreacting in my OP. But to answer your question, the march pump and recirculating whilrpool IC setup was an awesome upgrade. I LOVE my pump (used it three times so far).

What is stopping the liquid from going to the right side of the TEE where the relief valve and copper tubing is?

dmaxweb said:

What is stopping the liquid from going to the right side of the TEE where the relief valve and copper tubing is?

Click to expand...

The needle valve. When it's closed, no liquid can make it out the bleeder tube.

Evan! said:

I was a little more patient last friday, and opened the kettle valve to let the liquid flow via gravity to the pump before turning it on. I had an instant prime...so maybe I was just overreacting in my OP. But to answer your question, the march pump and recirculating whilrpool IC setup was an awesome upgrade. I LOVE my pump (used it three times so far).

Click to expand...

Cool. I 'll probably still add one in the future. I would also use it for recirculating through a CFC. But I've also found one pass with gravity chilled my wort down to pitching temps as well. Does the pump just allow you to do it faster?
I have many more things before worrying about a pump. Such as ingredients.Trying to break my Hobby Equipment Whoring this year. Not going to allow myself to by/build anything without at least 10G between each item.

IrregularPulse said:

Cool. I 'll probably still add one in the future. I would also use it for recirculating through a CFC. But I've also found one pass with gravity chilled my wort down to pitching temps as well. Does the pump just allow you to do it faster?
I have many more things before worrying about a pump. Such as ingredients.Trying to break my Hobby Equipment Whoring this year. Not going to allow myself to by/build anything without at least 10G between each item.

Click to expand...

The pump just allows you to not have to arrange things too much according to where the liquid is going to end up. For instance, I can have my carboy above the level of the kettle and still transfer wort there. You don't necessarily want to go faster, because that means less contact time with cold water in the CFC, and thus, less chilling...unless you recirc it, which is what I do, but with an IC and not a CFC. The pump pulls from the bottom of the kettle, through the tubing, and then back into the kettle via a copper recirculation arm which is attached to the IC with zipties...and it gets shot back into the kettle at an angle, which gets a whirlpool going in the kettle and increases the efficiency of the IC. None of this would be possible without the pump. Now...the final transfer after chilling to the carboy, that is MUCH quicker than it used to be.

conpewter said:

Oh and my dip tubes often seem to have air in them (locked in from when it was empty and I filled from the top) so I'm planning on doing a cheap bottom mount drain, look for a how-to thread soon... if it works.

Click to expand...

This seems to be my problem as well. I also wonder if steam created when boiling doesn't fill the dip tube even if it was primed. I wish I would have welded an elbow to the bottom of my converted keg instead of a coupler on the side. I'll watch your progress. If it works, it may be time to start looking for some more decommissioned kegs.

flyangler18 said:

The needle valve. When it's closed, no liquid can make it out the bleeder tube.

Click to expand...

Isn't this only a bleeder valve?



Is there a needle valve in the pump set-up picture that I am not seeing?

The PDF instruction sheet on the March web site recommends 3/4 inch input hose and 1/2 inch output hoses. I am thinking you can mimic this by just closing the output valve slightly but I'd like to try a 3/4 in ball valve and hose between the MLT and pump.

Linc

dmaxweb said:

Isn't this only a bleeder valve?

Is there a needle valve in the pump set-up picture that I am not seeing?

Click to expand...

The picture of the pump posted above did not have one of those cable-pull bleeder valves. All it had was the needle valve and tubing beyond.

The PDF instruction sheet on the March web site recommends 3/4 inch input hose and 1/2 inch output hoses. I am thinking you can mimic this by just closing the output valve slightly but I'd like to try a 3/4 in ball valve and hose between the MLT and pump.

Click to expand...

That seems like it would be harder to prime than the reverse of that. Bigger lines on the suction side just make it that much harder to prime and any restriction on the pressure side does the same.

If you had to start a siphon which would be easier to start...1/4" tubing or 1" tubing? Same with priming a pump imo.

SpanishCastleAle said:

That seems like it would be harder to prime than the reverse of that. Bigger lines on the suction side just make it that much harder to prime and any restriction on the pressure side does the same.

If you had to start a siphon which would be easier to start...1/4" tubing or 1" tubing? Same with priming a pump imo.

Click to expand...

That's what it's saying, A larger hose going to make more pressure (weight) to push the air out.

That's what it's saying, A larger hose going to make more pressure (weight) to push the air out.

Click to expand...

It said a larger hose in the suction/inlet side. Take an extreme example; what would be easier to prime: a 1/4" ID tube or a 1 mile ID tube? See how hard it would be to get a good prime on that 1 mile ID tube? But just a little suction on the 1/4" tube would prime it easily.

IMO, it's not really about getting the air out per se...but more about getting pure liquid to the suction side. Once you get pure liquid at the suction side you're golden...the pump will take care of getting the air out (as long as you give it a path).