Closed-system pressurized fermentation technique!

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What do you guys think about pressure fermentations? Time for a poll.

  • I've done it and I liked it just fine!

  • I've done it, nothing wrong with it, but prefer normal fermentation techniques.

  • I've done it, hate it, and never will do it again!

  • I've never done it, but it is on my list!

  • I've never done anything. I only brew beer in my mind.

Results are only viewable after voting.
humann_brewing said:
So are you guys just dumping in hops to the kegs?
Click to expand...

I rack and coarse filter (5 micron) to a new keg before dry hopping. I do this for a couple of reasons:

  • Excessive yeast will adsorb and reduce the dry hop character.
  • Re-pitching "dry hopped" yeast to another batch carries over a certain amount of flavor/aroma. Not always desirable.
  • I prefer to keep the beer under pressure once carbonated during primary fermentation. Opening the lid to throw in some hops would defeat the purpose.
  • I use a SureScreen filter on my "dry hop" kegs. So, I just toss in the hops, purge with CO2, and rack to the keg.
 
lamarguy said:
I rack and coarse filter (5 micron) to a new keg before dry hopping. I do this for a couple of reasons:

  • Excessive yeast will adsorb and reduce the dry hop character.
  • Re-pitching "dry hopped" yeast to another batch carries over a certain amount of flavor/aroma. Not always desirable.
  • I prefer to keep the beer under pressure once carbonated during primary fermentation. Opening the lid to throw in some hops would defeat the purpose.
  • I use a SureScreen filter on my "dry hop" kegs. So, I just toss in the hops, purge with CO2, and rack to the keg.
Click to expand...

Very nice, I saw your filtering transfer, I think I might try to go that route too. so 2 questions on the dry hop

so you have the beer carbed and cold, so you dry hop cold? wouldn't this take a lot longer?

the surescreen looks good but I use pellets and it says they tend to get clogged. do you use pellet or whole
 
humann_brewing said:
so you have the beer carbed and cold, so you dry hop cold? wouldn't this take a lot longer?
Click to expand...

Before I filter, I cold crash to ~30F for 24 hours to settle as much yeast as possible and to enhance long-term flavor stability (concept supported by brewing literature). At that point, the beer is carbonated to about 2 volumes and in the low 30's.

If I'm dry hopping, I then set the fridge temp controller to ~70F and let it rest for ~7 days. So, no, I don't dry hop cold. :)

humann_brewing said:
the surescreen looks good but I use pellets and it says they tend to get clogged. do you use pellet or whole
Click to expand...

Ya, that's why I use whole hops exclusively for dry hopping. Pellet hops for hot-side and whole hops for cold-side...Otherwise, I'd have to use bags and what not.
 
lamarguy said:
Before I filter, I cold crash to ~30F for 24 hours to settle as much yeast as possible and to enhance long-term flavor stability (concept supported by brewing literature). At that point, the beer is carbonated to about 2 volumes and in the low 30's.

If I'm dry hopping, I then set the fridge temp controller to ~70F and let it rest for ~7 days. So, no, I don't dry hop cold. :)



Ya, that's why I use whole hops exclusively for dry hopping. Pellet hops for hot-side and whole hops for cold-side...Otherwise, I'd have to use bags and what not.
Click to expand...

ok, so I guess I need to get some whole hops or figure something else out.
 
lamarguy said:
McMaster has a fine adjustment relief valve that costs more but is more precise (my preference).

The inexpensive relief valve will work just fine for what you're doing, though.

Any pressure gauge will work. I recommend a 0 - 30 PSI range.
Click to expand...

Thanks!

So the size coming off ball lock QD is 1/4" right?

phpThumb.php


so, I could get something like

9171K31-120x80.jpg


given the right sizes
 
humann_brewing said:
Thanks!

So the size coming off ball lock QD is 1/4" right?

phpThumb.php
Click to expand...

The disconnects have flare fittings. I recommend you connect the disconnect to the pressure relief assembly with a hose that has swivel nut fittings on both ends:

images


09D03104.jpg


and a female flare fitting on the pressure relief assembly:

50635k381-am.gif


That allows you to reuse and reconfigure as necessary. Here's an example of an assembly with a push-to-connect fitting instead of a flare fitting:

sanke-1.jpg
 
humann_brewing said:
can't seem to find a adapter for MFL to NPT
Click to expand...

McMaster doesn't sell them, that's what SpanishC was referring too...You can make one with fared tubing adapters, buy one from another company, or you can use a hose with swivel nuts like I posted earlier.

I recommend the clear hose option because you'll get an early warning if the krausen is about to spill-over into your pressure relief assembly. ;)
 
I had that same problem, nobody seems to make a 1/4" FFL to NPT. I don't know where midwest sources theirs.

You could utilize this solution, but it's not pretty:
2010-10-04175125.jpg
 
lamarguy said:
McMaster doesn't sell them, that's what SpanishC was referring too...You can make one with fared tubing adapters, buy one from another company, or you can use a hose with swivel nuts like I posted earlier.

I recommend the clear hose option because you'll get an early warning if the krausen is about to spill-over into your pressure relief assembly. ;)
Click to expand...

good point about the viewing

in that case I could just use a barbed gas QD to hose to barbed brass into a brass T with the gauge on one and the relief on the other.
 
Wow, keep it coming guys. The more this thread gets used, the more will read and start using. I can't wait till my next lager is done. Then I get to use my spunding valve on a room temperature brown ale under pressure with Pacman. If I get this technique nailed down with a house yeast... what can't I brew? Absolutely cannot wait.
 
humann_brewing said:
yeah, I measured my freezer and it is 27", so even with a 10" collar, I am looking at 37", that is cutting it really close. Do we know if these are really 36" or like 35.5 or something?
Click to expand...

I use 1 X 10 tongue and groove which fits right into the track/groove that the rubber freezer seal goes into and just put a couple L brackets. The tongue fits in there pretty tight... but you have to make the collar a like a picture frame with mider'd 45 degree angles so the tongues line up. I had to get one of those stainless ball lock connectors simply for the reason that the barb doesn't point up, it points horizontally (to prevent any hose kinking). But barring that, there is plenty of room and you shouldn't need anything bigger. And yes, the corny is more like 35.25" - 35.5" high.

Also, I'll second the recommendation to use the McMaster parts. I would hate to try to all this with an 'instrument' that wasn't precise and able to be 'played' well.
 
OK, fellas- here I go. First video post!

So, as you can see, I didn't stick the dismount. Still trying to get that part down. But you'll notice when I shut down the spunding valve, the gurgling stops in like 5 seconds. I think next time what I'll do is ride the spunding valve at the end and slow down the transfer right before it's done. Thing is, all the vessels have to end at the same pressure or the beer will travel back and forth, n such.

The transfer has to be "primed" to get going. See the send with the most feet of head was the slowest, but once it gets going they are the same rate.

Pretty equal transfer!

Also, I figured out that my dry-hop bag was preventing me from cropping bottom yeast, not that it was too sticky (WLP001). I pushed the bag out of the way with the dip tube and then transfered more than enough yeast into my corny for my next batch. You can't really see the yeast flowing with that resolution, but I got a couple pints.

You also notice that I'm no Spielberg:D Gotta Love Closed System!!!!
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Seems if you shut down the spunding valve at the end, the frantic hose ripping would have been unnecessary. Awesome setup though, good work.
 
Dgonza9 said:
Is it possible to fill cornys from your sanke while you have the lid open? I mean, will it foam like mad if you ferment no higher than 7psi? I'm less concerned about contamination and carbonation. Spent some $$$ this month already on two spund valves. Third isn't likely to happen.
Click to expand...

You don't need a tee at all. Make a jumper hose using beer line with a gas QD on one end and a beer QD on the other end. Connect the output of the fermenter to the beer in on the first corny keg. Connect the gas out of the first corny keg to the beer in of the second corny keg. Put a spunding valve on the second corny. As soon as the first keg gets full the remaining beer will push into the second keg through the gas post of the first keg.

In my setup I'm using three corny kegs connected to a manifold and one spunding valve during fermentation. After fermentation I connect a picnic tap to pull the bottom yeast from all three kegs, and then connect a 5 micron filter to the first keg. The jumper goes between the cornies. I push with CO2 until the first keg blows, then the second, then the third. On the third I stop when I start getting beer flowing out of the spunding valve on the second corny. The valve I'm using there is a simple spring valve so it is easy to take it apart and clean it, since it usually gets foam in it at the end even if the second keg doesn't get over-full.
 
SankePankey said:
OK, fellas- here I go. First video post!

So, as you can see, I didn't stick the dismount. Still trying to get that part down. But you'll notice when I shut down the spunding valve, the gurgling stops in like 5 seconds. I think next time what I'll do is ride the spunding valve at the end and slow down the transfer right before it's done. Thing is, all the vessels have to end at the same pressure or the beer will travel back and forth, n such.

The transfer has to be "primed" to get going. See the send with the most feet of head was the slowest, but once it gets going they are the same rate.

Pretty equal transfer!

Also, I figured out that my dry-hop bag was preventing me from cropping bottom yeast, not that it was too sticky (WLP001). I pushed the bag out of the way with the dip tube and then transfered more than enough yeast into my corny for my next batch. You can't really see the yeast flowing with that resolution, but I got a couple pints.

You also notice that I'm no Spielberg:D Gotta Love Closed System!!!!
url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCHgfOMNj-s[/url]
Click to expand...

very nice, I am impressed
 
Quick Question for the thread. I'm about day 5 on my IPA using PacMan, been fermenting around 2psi. I just ramped it up to 10psi and took a gravity reading. OG was 1.064 - current reading at 1.031. Will I have any issues with the fermentation at 10psi until I hit my FG? Temp is maintaining at 64 deg.

Thanks
 
It shouldn't be any trouble at all. At your attenuation growth has already happened. They will eat the rest of the sugars and you will have carbonated beer. I don't have my computer with me to tell me what volumes you are getting of CO2 at 64*F/10 psi? I completely un-tap my connector sometimes and let it ramp past 10 psi while doing D-rests and such. Anything to get my desired carbonation or higher, and so easy to get rid of extra pressure if over-carbonated.
 
Is there any type of affordable pump that could compress the CO2 coming out of the spunding valve and recompress it into a tank? I'm sure you'd have to run it through some desiccant, but it would be nice to never have to buy CO2 again.
 
There are a couple of CO2 reclamation threads on here. I did one of them when I was curious a while back. To get CO2 to a workable pressure it has to be under a lot of pressure. I wish there was a way and I didn't have to go buy CO2 myself.
 
If someone offered to refill my CO2 tank for free with "reclaimed" CO2 from fermentation, I'd politely decline. ;)

Fermentation produces a lot more than CO2, namely esters, that would likely affect the flavor of dissimilar beers. Not to mention CO2 is inexpensive.
 
Saccharomyces said:
You don't need a tee at all. Make a jumper hose using beer line with a gas QD on one end and a beer QD on the other end. Connect the output of the fermenter to the beer in on the first corny keg. Connect the gas out of the first corny keg to the beer in of the second corny keg. Put a spunding valve on the second corny. As soon as the first keg gets full the remaining beer will push into the second keg through the gas post of the first keg.

In my setup I'm using three corny kegs connected to a manifold and one spunding valve during fermentation. After fermentation I connect a picnic tap to pull the bottom yeast from all three kegs, and then connect a 5 micron filter to the first keg. The jumper goes between the cornies. I push with CO2 until the first keg blows, then the second, then the third. On the third I stop when I start getting beer flowing out of the spunding valve on the second corny. The valve I'm using there is a simple spring valve so it is easy to take it apart and clean it, since it usually gets foam in it at the end even if the second keg doesn't get over-full.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply. Let me see if I have it right. I should expect that my spunding valve on the second keg could get beer in it if my second keg gets full and beer is still being pushed from first corny, correct?

Other than having to clean the spunding valve, this seems like a great idea.
 
This may be a dumb question so please excuse me, or have a laugh at it!

If I am transferring from sanke to two cornys and I hooked both cornys up to a co2 regulator set at 7psi, then hooked sanke up to a different regulator set at 9psi to transfer, would I need a spunding valve on the cornys?

I'm just wondering if transfering from the sanke will raise the pressure on the cornys and therefore require a spunding valve somewhere or a manual release of pressure.

Many thanks. Might brew tomorrow, though I don't have inline oxygenation setup yet. May just use venturi aerator or shake sanke.
 
I'm having some trouble getting the spund valve working. Here's a pic of my setup. The release screw is to the left of the gauge.

e2a55a0a.jpg


Basically, I put in a tee to quick connect to my co2 tank for transfer pressure when sanitizing, etc. Keg has pressurized, but even with gas valve closed on the tank, my spund gauge reads near zero. I know there is more pressure in my keg. If I pull the release on the sanke coupler, major gas still in keg, but spund gauge reads near zero. WTF? :confused:
Why won't my pressure gauge read it?

If I turn on the gas from co2 tank, the valve pressure gauge goes up to whatever the co2 regulator is set at.


If I open the pressure release screw a bit on spund valve it seems to release the air from the manifold, but not the keg. I set tank for 5 psi and used the spund screw to set pressure release fine, but my keg clearly is not involved in this.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. It's the correct coupler. I'm able to pressurize and move liquid out of the keg. Thanks for the help!:confused:
 
Interesting point on the over carbonation a la natural. Thanks for the tip. SankeyP, thanks for the video, very insightful, and has given me an idea to incorporate counter pressure filling on my current IPA.
 
flananuts said:
Interesting point on the over carbonation a la natural. Thanks for the tip. SankeyP, thanks for the video, very insightful, and has given me an idea to incorporate counter pressure filling on my current IPA.
Click to expand...

No prob. If anyone wants to try it with a cross (which would be more sanitary, really) I'd like to know if it works. I wasn't willing to and I needed NPT for my tri-clover fitting anyways.

Here's an updated Technique based on lessons from that transfer:
1) Hook up 'The Octopus' to the fermenter.
2) Pressurize to 10 PSI. Bleed to 9 PSI with spunding valve.
3) Purge 3 cornys at once and send out any remaining Starsan. Pressurize to ~10 PSI.
4) Put the spunding valve on the corny gas manifold and bleed to calibrated 9 PSI. All vessels the same.
5) Put disconnects on the liquid in of each keg. Nothing happens if they're all calibrated the same.
6) Crank up the CO2 a couple PSI in a quickish motion to 'prime' the transfer.
7) As the frost line approaches near done, ride the spunding valve closed so there's less of a pressure differential from sending keg once gurgling starts.
8) Shut the spunding valve when gurgling starts. Only takes a few seconds to stop with the small headroom now in receiveing kegs.

Here is what some breweries would use:

3200.jpg
 
Dgonza9 said:
I'm having some trouble getting the spund valve working. Here's a pic of my setup. The release screw is to the left of the gauge.

e2a55a0a.jpg


Basically, I put in a tee to quick connect to my co2 tank for transfer pressure when sanitizing, etc. Keg has pressurized, but even with gas valve closed on the tank, my spund gauge reads near zero. I know there is more pressure in my keg. If I pull the release on the sanke coupler, major gas still in keg, but spund gauge reads near zero. WTF? :confused:
Why won't my pressure gauge read it?

If I turn on the gas from co2 tank, the valve pressure gauge goes up to whatever the co2 regulator is set at.


If I open the pressure release screw a bit on spund valve it seems to release the air from the manifold, but not the keg. I set tank for 5 psi and used the spund screw to set pressure release fine, but my keg clearly is not involved in this.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. It's the correct coupler. I'm able to pressurize and move liquid out of the keg. Thanks for the help!:confused:
Click to expand...

Woke up this morning and keg was depressurized. Filled it to 5 psi and pulled coupler release. Gauge went down. So now it appears to work. I wonder if it somehow was not pressurized like I thought it was.

I'm wondering, though about the tailpiece I bought for my sanke coupler from midwest. It doesn't insert into the sanke coupler the way the original does. Here's the piece I bought.

mfltailpiece.jpg


The original piece has a round extension on the bottom that fits into the gray rubber piece. This one is flat bottomed.

Anyway, if I have the wrong piece I'd appreciate some advice. I"m still worried there's a leak somewhere.
 
Dgonza9 said:
I'm still worried there's a leak somewhere.
Click to expand...

With the gauge not reading properly, it sounds like you have a leak. Spray all of the joints with Starsan or a soap solution and pressurize the keg to a few PSI.

After I pitch yeast, I always pressurize the keg to ~1 PSI and check the gauge to ensure there are no leaks.
 
Dgonza9 said:
Woke up this morning and keg was depressurized. Filled it to 5 psi and pulled coupler release. Gauge went down. So now it appears to work. I wonder if it somehow was not pressurized like I thought it was.

I'm wondering, though about the tailpiece I bought for my sanke coupler from midwest. It doesn't insert into the sanke coupler the way the original does. Here's the piece I bought.

mfltailpiece.jpg


The original piece has a round extension on the bottom that fits into the gray rubber piece. This one is flat bottomed.

Anyway, if I have the wrong piece I'd appreciate some advice. I"m still worried there's a leak somewhere.
Click to expand...

That piece should have a rubber sealing washer supplied with it. Also, there is a rubber tube-like piece in the sanke adapter that is a check-valve for CO2; it's designed to let air into the keg, but not out (which is why your gauge would not show any pressure unless external CO2 was applied). You'll have to remove it from the gas-in part of the keg coupler in order for the spunding valve to work.

Edit: They look like this (sometimes gray):

zvITa.jpg
 
Thanks for the information. I had left the gray co2 check valve in. I'll need to remove it

My tailpiece, however, did not come with any rubber washer. Guess I'll contact Midwest Brewing to find out if they have it.

Thanks again.
 
I'm fairly certain they sell that same piece for both the liquid-out and gas-in ports. The gas-in wouldn't need a washer under normal use because the check-valve piece would provide the sealing surface, but the liquid-out port would need that sealing washer. My guess is that it should have come with one, unless it was specifically marked as being for the gas-side.

Edit: Nope, I guess they sell the washer as a separate item. http://www.midwestsupplies.com/neoprene-washer.html

In any case, you can probably find a compatible washer at the hardware store near the faucet replacement parts (o-rings, asst seals, etc.) for less than a dollar. Bring the tail piece and nut with you to make sure the washer fits.
 
GNBrews said:
I'm fairly certain they sell that same piece for both the liquid-out and gas-in ports. The gas-in wouldn't need a washer under normal use because the check-valve piece would provide the sealing surface, but the liquid-out port would need that sealing washer. My guess is that it should have come with one, unless it was specifically marked as being for the gas-side.

Edit: Nope, I guess they sell the washer as a separate item. http://www.midwestsupplies.com/neoprene-washer.html

In any case, you can probably find a compatible washer at the hardware store near the faucet replacement parts (o-rings, asst seals, etc.) for less than a dollar. Bring the tail piece and nut with you to make sure the washer fits.
Click to expand...

I have some of those. I just didn't think of it for a gas line. I removed the gray rubber check valve and used the o-ring. Everything seems good. Gonna test it some more, though.

FYI, I think my other problem with a leaky manifold may have been caused by putting teflon tape on the flared fittings. That's a no no.

Thanks for the help.
 

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