Malt Conditioning... WOW it rocks!

BigJay13 said:

I'm assuming your wort is still clear by the time it gets to the BK, right?

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Mine was, but I recirc. for 90 minutes.

The Pol said:

I agree Kai. I am sure you can mash long enough to convert, even with a bad crush, but I have had bad crushes before and a 90 minute mash didnt help that. Id say 2-3 hours would be right... and like you said, this will change the fermentability of the wort.

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The Pol said:

This in iteself will not increase eff. in any way. You arent doing anything different to the kernel, you are just leaving the husk intact.

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I understand that it won't help conversion, given enough time anyhow, but what about extraction? To some extent I would think this is sparge method dependent?

The Pol said:

Well, if the grain isnt crushed at all, no amount of time will help. If the crush is so poor that it contains some intact kernels, then those wont convert either.

Palmer is right, to a degree, but it depends on what a "bad" crush is. And who is going to mash for hours? Really.

Isnt this the same guy that tells people to add water to grain?

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I think I'm going to disagree here. I believe an uncrushed grain will eventually convert. Isn't this how they make crystal malts?

dfohio said:

I think I'm going to disagree here. I believe an uncrushed grain will eventually convert. Isn't this how they make crystal malts?

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Yes, I wrote an article about this a while back, but YOU arent getting it out, so it is a moot point in a practial sense, and it would be completely imeasureable. You got me.

You could have 100% conversion, you just cannot measure it, nor can you use the sugars.

Hermit said:

I understand that it won't help conversion, given enough time anyhow, but what about extraction? To some extent I would think this is sparge method dependent?

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I honestly have no idea what you are asking.

The Pol said:

This is not an eff. gaining technique. This is a way to improve the quality of the crush, not the quantity of your eff. As stated previously I am using this on my HERMS so that I can increase flow, period. The higher my flow rate, the more effective my system runs. This is important to me.

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I have a HERMS rig similar to yours and it definitely improved the flow rate. The husks were a lot fluffier. Milling the grain was a lot more work, though (I do it by hand with a Barley Crusher).

when you do this method of changing lautering ratios, do you find that the flavor profiles can vary?

OLDBREW said:

when you do this method of changing lautering ratios, do you find that the flavor profiles can vary?

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I dont know what you are asking. Vary between what?

EvilGnome6 said:

I have a HERMS rig similar to yours and it definitely improved the flow rate. The husks were a lot fluffier. Milling the grain was a lot more work, though (I do it by hand with a Barley Crusher).

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Milling by hand is harder with this method, yes. I did it this last time, and I am not doing it again

I thought you said less grain less sparging water more grain more sparge water. I presumed the mash ratio was a constant ie; 1.25 qts/# larger bills you would be boiling down to batch size

OLDBREW said:

I thought you said less grain less sparging water more grain more sparge water. I presumed the mash ratio was a constant ie; 1.25 qts/# larger bills you would be boiling down to batch size

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Mash ratio is not a constant, thusly changing the sparge volume. Increasing FW volume.

Pol, Kai,

Once again Great Advice.

Once I started circulating with my HERMS I had to widen the gap in my Barley Crusher to prevent the bed from getting compacted. This cost me some efficiency. I am currently recirculating with conditioned malt and a fine crush. The difference in the grain Husks is trully amazing.

Thanks Again Guys.

I just conditioned for the first time and I agree that it's great. More whole hulls with a finer crush. I'm sold!

Just a bump because this works so well. My crush is fluffy! in fact I have to be careful when milling because the conditioned crush takes up a lot more volume, my bucket can get filled up.

AWESOME! Malt conditioning ROCKS! Kudos to Kaiser for his work here.

bendavanza said:

Just a bump because this works so well. My crush is fluffy! in fact I have to be careful when milling because the conditioned crush takes up a lot more volume, my bucket can get filled up.

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That's exactly what my crush looks like now. It's just beautiful, fluffy goodness. Flow rate through the HERMS is perfect and my conversion efficiency has been hitting 100%.

AWESOME! Malt conditioning ROCKS! Kudos to Kaiser for his work here.

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Agreed! Thank you so much for the information you share, Kaiser. The malt conditioning process and efficiency calculators have helped me raise my brewhouse efficiency from under 70% to over 80%.

This is outstanding! Way to go guys. That looks perfect bendavanza.

Pol:

Just curious, since you were measuring your PH in the sparge, what was it? I measure in the mash, but have never checked the sparge PH, and I think I will definitely sample a batch or two now to see where it is at. Would the issue be tannin extraction at this point since conversion is done and shut down anyway by the sparge temp? Is there a PH area that tannin extraction begins to occur in the sparge? I could not find a definitive number on Kaisers page related to sparge only.

Also I'm sure several people have seen Kaiser has a fine article in the new Zymurgy. Nothing that isn't discussed on his web site, but nice to see his work getting recognition and exposure in the trade journals.

AFAIK, it just gets worse and worse and pH rises. But I've seen the high 5's mentioned...somewhere.

Also I'm sure several people have seen Kaiser has a fine article in the new Zymurgy. Nothing that isn't discussed on his web site, but nice to see his work getting recognition and exposure in the trade journals.

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+1
IIRC, his FFT article was in there an issue or two back as well.

SpanishCastleAle said:

The rollers are even...I measure the gap every so often and always look through the gap before crushing to see if it is even (I found it uneven one time). I actually think that the driven roller is a tiny bit too long...so it's ends are rubbing against the housing (and the passive roller actually has some play). I've never really looked into it because it gives a nice crush and I need the exercise (stupid reason but w/e).

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You have your mill mounted crooked on the board. You should check the ends with a square and criss cross a tape measure to make sure they measure the same distance from corner to corneron the en plates. If you have the ends mounted cocked it will bind. When you do have to oil your bushings, use vegetable oil then work the rollers then wipe off the excess.

OLDBREW said:

You have your mill mounted crooked on the board. You should check the ends with a square and criss cross a tape measure to make sure they measure the same distance from corner to corneron the en plates. If you have the ends mounted cocked it will bind. When you do have to oil your bushings, use vegetable oil then work the rollers then wipe off the excess.

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I'll check that. It's always been like this and I never removed it from the board it is shipped on. I've tried lubing it...no difference.

SpanishCastleAle said:

I'll check that. It's always been like this and I never removed it from the board it is shipped on. I've tried lubing it...no difference.

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Yeah,
Just try loosening the mounting bolts a bit and see if that frees up the binding.

You can also measure the roller length just to make sure it really isn't longer.
From your description it sounds like it may be cocked some. I'm sure if you contacted BC and told them the story they would make sure you were taken care of if there is a problem with their unit.

Just did it last night. It is amazing how much fluffier it is. I am mashing right now. Can't wait to see the difference.

I did this for the first time on my batch today. Wow, it really results in a great crush...I tightened my mill down to .018 and still had mostly intact hulls.

More praise for malt conditioning here. Previous couple batches with my new BC resulted in stuck/very slow sparges. Conditioned the malt this time and with the same gap it was perfect! It looked so much better too. Efficiency was the same as without conditioning (~80%).

I decided to give this a shot. I found that like already mentioned it made for a poor filter bed. I vorlaufed like 2.5 gallons and still had crap coming through. It got fairly clear though, certainly acceptable.

The Pol said:

No, you do not need a special mill, or an adjustable one. If you like the crush you have, this will give you the SAME crush, BUT it will keep the husks INTACT. Yes, that is the only thing that changes.

It will work on your mill. Use 2% by weight of the malt, as your water quantity. So 10 pounds of grain will need 3.2oz of water added.

Try it, it is AMAZING!

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you mean 3.2 dry ounces oces of water wieghed out right? fluid ounces are different..

Just tightened my cap to .030 on the ol' crankenstein. Has to tighten the belt on my motor to keep it from slipping, I would HATE to hand crank this! Lol.

Can't wait to try it on my brew day tomorrow!



Conditioned on the right.... pictures don't do it justice.

Wow that wasn't fun at all. Major belt slippage in the pulleys trying to shove 14 pounds of grain in the hopper. Definitely put my geri rigged mill/motor contraption to the test.

Great thread!
Even though it wasn't a thread on efficiency, I feel I learned some new things about efficiency! Thanks guys!

I'm putting together my HERMS and am about to buy a mill. I plan on conditioning my malt in order to get good flow rates through the HERMS.

Does anyone have any guidance on whether a 2-roller or 3-roller mill (considering C&S/MM) is better suited for this method (if that even matters)?

Thought I'd post my experience here:

Conditioned 20 lbs of malt with 6.4 oz of water and crushed with a .019 gap on a MonsterMill 2.0.

I'd done a test run or two and this batch came out just like the test runs... nice and fluffy with most of the hulls intact.

I batch sparge with a 1" braid. I had no problems with draining/sparging.

This is my third AG batch. With the first two I was stuck at 62% efficiency. With this batch I hit 75% which is right where I'd like to be. For the first two batches I was using malt milled by the brew supply shop.

hey guys, I want to condition and mill my grains 48 hours before my brewday. do you thing that could be a problem, and do you think the malt could spoil over that time, considering the 2% extra moisture in it?

I keep my milled grains in plastic bags, so I thought this fact might also increase the possibility of spoilage.

maybe I'm wrong. I'd like to be wrong on this one.

please comment

cheers!

Most likely. I wouldn't risk it.

400d said:

hey guys, I want to condition and mill my grains 48 hours before my brewday. do you thing that could be a problem, and do you think the malt could spoil over that time, considering the 2% extra moisture in it?

I keep my milled grains in plastic bags, so I thought this fact might also increase the possibility of spoilage.

maybe I'm wrong. I'd like to be wrong on this one.

please comment

cheers!

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Why are you conditioning that far in advance?

Also, for what it is worth, Kaiser has said that conditioning overnight won't lead to spoilage.

Can conditioned malt be crushed the night before brewing?: Yes it can. The added moisture is not enough to cause spoilage.

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http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Malt_Conditioning

Adding moisture to grains and letting them sit in a bag is asking for some nice Lactobacillus growth unless you keep the grains quite cold.

I think you'll be fine since you are milling it right away. I would not condition the malt and then store it. The act of milling will distribute the water throughout the grain and it is such a small amount I don't think any bug will be able to use it to grow.

I am assuming you are only using a minimum of water. I use 100 ml for about 8 lbs of grain

Isn't all of our grain contaminated with Lactobacillus? I can't imagine that such a small amount of water would make the lacto grow so much overnight that it would effect your mash. This is especially true since you will be boiling and killing all the nasties anyway. That said, I would not store for any length of time as I think you could get some interesting mold growths with moisture in a sealed container of grain. Can you say "Growth medium"?

Foosier, you are correct about molds and it is the same for Lactobacillus; adding water may provide the required moisture for microbes (yeast, bacteria, fungi, molds, etc) to grow. I would not want to find out the hard way.

I know that it looks like a better crush, but honestly this is something that I will never do. I currently get 80% efficiency and never had a stuck mash. I don't see adding any extra steps because I don't believe that it would make my beer significantly better. I'm not knocking it, but this isn't for me.


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MW66 said:

I know that it looks like a better crush, but honestly this is something that I will never do. I currently get 80% efficiency and never had a stuck mash. I don't see adding any extra steps because I don't believe that it would make my beer significantly better. I'm not knocking it, but this isn't for me.


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It significantly cuts down on dust when I'm milling. Don't need to clean the mill at all. That alone is worth it for me.