Experiment with Aromatic, Melanoidon, Special B, Victory and Chocolate

All of my beers seem to lack malt flavor, and several judges said this for my two entries at the NHC this year. I don't think I have a good grasp of the flavors contributed by certain specialty malts, so I'm going to do an experiment. I plan to brew a 6 gallon batch similar to this:

10 lbs Pils
3 lbs Vienna
0.75 lbs C60

I then want to add 8 oz of each of the following:

Aromatic
Melanoidon
Special B
Victory
Chocolate

What are your thoughts on brewing up the main batch, hopping with a simple APA schedule, splitting it up into five small 1.2 gallon fermenters, and then adding about a liter of water steeped with each of the above grains?

Do any of the above really need to be mashed, or would steeping work for all 5?

Also, will I be missing something if I don't expose these 5 specialty grains to boiling temps as well as hops?

some of those need mashing, even if not you probably would get better and more consistent extraction from adding in like 8oz of pils and mashing each with the same time/temp you would the full beer.

What kind of containers are you going to steep/mash and boil them in? doing them all at once at the same time as the main mash and boil?

you should boil them to sanitize. I don't think you need to boil long for the specialty, but if you add pils you might get a bit of DMS flavor if you don't boil that for long.

I like that idea (mashing with 8 oz pils). Thanks!

Don't know what I'm going to do for containers yet, but was hoping to mash/steep at the same time as the main boil.

I'd also like to do future experiments with different yeast types, so I think it might be worthwhile to buy five 1-2 gallon containers that I can through an airlock on.

It's a great idea to split batch to try different ingredients to get to know their impact. There is a difference between "malt flavor" and specialty malts which add caramel, chocolate, bready or roasted overtones, etc. Your base malt here is pils. Pils does not taste "malty" in my book. Look at recipes where "maltiness" is a key component. for instance I really like the taste of Marris Otter for a base malt. Then look at yeasts that accentuate malt. Also mashing fat - say 155 - adds mouthfeel that to me accentuates maltiness. Just my 2 cents.

If you really want to find out what a specific ingredient tastes like I would remove the vienna and crystal, Id just use pils and then the ingredient you want to test. maybe like a 9:1 ratio or so

dbrewski said:

It's a great idea to split batch to try different ingredients to get to know their impact. There is a difference between "malt flavor" and specialty malts which add caramel, chocolate, bready or roasted overtones, etc. Your base malt here is pils. Pils does not taste "malty" in my book. Look at recipes where "maltiness" is a key component. for instance I really like the taste of Marris Otter for a base malt. Then look at yeasts that accentuate malt. Also mashing fat - say 155 - adds mouthfeel that to me accentuates maltiness. Just my 2 cents.

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I definitely agree, but sometimes specialty malts add flavors that can be interpreted as "malty". As an example: there are many malty american IPAs, but more than likely, the majority of those are 2-row with specialty malts. That's the type of "maltiness" I'm looking for, and maybe I'm not even defining it correctly. But my mouth will know when I taste it.

brettwasbtd said:

If you really want to find out what a specific ingredient tastes like I would remove the vienna and crystal, Id just use pils and then the ingredient you want to test. maybe like a 9:1 ratio or so

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I thought about doing this at first, but since the majority of the beers I brew have at least a little caramel and a higher kilned base malt, I'm more interested in how the specialty malts interact with one of my typical recipes, as opposed to by themselves.

Does that make sense?

Are the judges referencing malty ness or mouthfeel or both?

I like to use Maris Otter as my base because I think it provides a Maltese base without really sacrificing the style of the beer. I have also begun adding some wheat to all my beers as it really brings out a fuller mouthfeel. In addition look at your mash temperatures as that may be a reason you are not getting what you want out of the beer. If you are mashing too low you will get higher attenuation and conversely if you mash a little higher you will get less fermentable wort and little more malty/sweetness and a higher FG.

Only maltiness not mouthfeel.

cwheel said:

Only maltiness not mouthfeel.

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Then I would look at your mash temps and the base malt, the specialty grains will contribute some color and complexity and character as well but they really should be part of the mash.

Have you considered doing some small batch SMaSH recipes? Great way to learn about individual ingredients.

Also, if you don't have it already, "designing Great Beers" is a great book. A little dated but really teaches the insight into creating a recipe and the elements of a grain bill. Also brewing classic styles as you can see how other beers are created and take that info to your beer

I'm after more malt flavors in my beers too so I'm interested in hearing about your results. I've been experimenting by adding more aromatic malt to my recipes lately but I don't have any taste test results yet.

dbrewski said:

look at yeasts that accentuate malt.

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this. I just got a 38.5 on an Imperial Red & one of the key suggestions was that using neutral American yeast muted the malt character just enough to prevent "pulling it off in grand style". First time around I used an English style (Notty) and while it wasn't as good a beer overall, the malt character really shone through!

Piratwolf said:

this. I just got a 38.5 on an Imperial Red & one of the key suggestions was that using neutral American yeast muted the malt character just enough to prevent "pulling it off in grand style". First time around I used an English style (Notty) and while it wasn't as good a beer overall, the malt character really shone through!

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I got a 36.5 on a black IPA in the NHC, and they said a similar sort of thing - if the malt was more prominent, it would have been a really good beer.

I alternate between WLP001 and WY1968, and although I like the English ale strain, its still not getting me where I want to be.

I might try no-sparge brewing also, just to see what sort of effect that has. Breweries don't usually do this, however, so it doesn't seem likely that it will have an effect.

If you are trying to achieve more maltiness you might consider examining your water. Water chemistry can play a big part of it. You may need to add some calcium chloride to your mash along with diluting with RO or distilled water.

Dok said:

If you are trying to achieve more maltiness you might consider examining your water. Water chemistry can play a big part of it. You may need to add some calcium chloride to your mash along with diluting with RO or distilled water.

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Thanks for the tip, Sok. Water chemistry is my last major frontier to explore--maybe now's the time!

I've looked in depth at my water profile. I have very soft water, which means I can build it up to whatever I want. I used to do nothing. Then I used to add a TSP of CaCl to the mash. Then I started using Tasty's IPA profile. Honestly, none of it really seems to make a substantial difference on the maltiness of the brew. Maybe slightly with the hop aroma/flavor...

Certainly malts like aromatic will add malty flavors. However, I think the true "trick" to getting the malty flavors to shine is to get your water treatment down. You might try following the primer, and see how it changes your beer.

EDIT: Doh, didn't notice the last few comments.

cwheel said:

I've looked in depth at my water profile. I have very soft water, which means I can build it up to whatever I want. I used to do nothing. Then I used to add a TSP of CaCl to the mash. Then I started using Tasty's IPA profile. Honestly, none of it really seems to make a substantial difference on the maltiness of the brew. Maybe slightly with the hop aroma/flavor...

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Have you tried following the primer, including the part about adding acidulated malt (for lighter colored beers at least)?

Yeah, followed the primer. I used acidulated malt (3-4 oz per 5 gallon batch) for a while, but then I actually started taking the pH of my mash, and I didn't end up needing it. It's usually right around 5.2-5.3 with a typical IPA mash bill.

cwheel said:

Yeah, followed the primer. I used acidulated malt (3-4 oz per 5 gallon batch) for a while, but then I actually started taking the pH of my mash, and I didn't end up needing it. It's usually right around 5.2-5.3 with a typical IPA mash bill.

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Was this with a calibrated pH meter or test strips?

test strips

I know I know

What kind of water are you using? A good way to season for a malty beer is to start with straight RO water and put some CaCl2 in the mash and in the boil. Replace the CaCl2 with Gypsum for a hop forward beer. Use a little of both for a more balanced brew

Edit. Didn't read the last few comments either. I do recommend Gordon's Strongs book. It a great read and his, keep it simple approach, is refreshing.

In addition to all of the above you also can consider adding some malto dextrine powder to the grain bill. It will raise your FG a bit but contribute mouthfeel and bring out some of the maltiness of the beer as well

Did this experiment ever happen, or did I just read 23 posts for nothing?

Pie_Man said:

Did this experiment ever happen, or did I just read 23 posts for nothing?

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Don't you just love threads like this?