getting a sweet sparkling cider?

Hi all - I'm a bit confused after reading a few too many threads here!

I'm making my first batch of cider, and would like it not to be bone dry. I'm confused about the relationship between sweetness and carbonation - is it possible to bottle with some sweetness left in the brew - say by back sweetening - and to also have carbonation?

Does the yeast need to be killed off / fermentation stopped? Or can I just bottle it?

Thanks...

You can, but it would involve pasturisation or force carbonation.

There's a pretty good sticky thread on pasturising somewhere. It basically involves fermenting your cider to a stage that you're happy with, priming it (adding sugar to allow fermentation to create CO2) and finally putting the bottles in very hot water to kill off yeast and stop anymore fermentation from taking place.

Alternatively you could ferment to dry, add a stabaliser, back sweeten and then force carbonate in a pressure barrel using CO2 bulbs.

Either way, i woldn't say it's the easiest of things to do for a begginer. You're better off having it dry and fizzy, or still and sweet.

Dicky

Also, after aging a little, the sharp dry edges will smooth out a little...

Since its dried out already, bottle carb like 4 bottles and let them age to different times... Once you find out it you're into it aged, then you can decide what to do...

Backsweetining/forcecarbing is a TON of work and costs if you don't have the stuff to do it with

You can ferment till its dry and then backsweeten,prime,bottle and then pastuerize once it reaches the carbonation level that you like. I used the stove top method to pastuerize mine and it has worked great on several batches now. You could also bottle it before its done fermenting when its at a point that you like but you need to keep a very close watch on the carbonation level since it will carb very fast since you bottled before fermentation was complete. Either way will work though.

buffalo said:

You can ferment till its dry and then backsweeten,prime,bottle and then pastuerize once it reaches the carbonation level that you like. I used the stove top method to pastuerize mine and it has worked great on several batches now. You could also bottle it before its done fermenting when its at a point that you like but you need to keep a very close watch on the carbonation level since it will carb very fast since you bottled before fermentation was complete. Either way will work though.

Click to expand...

Yes. If you do it this way, watch VERY CLOSE or you'll have a ton of blowed up bottles one morning

Yes you can, this is the recipe I used, and it turned out great:

So, I primed 2 gallons of the cider with 4 oz of maple syrup, at the end of 5.5 days it had carbed up to my liking. I've put them all in the fridge, and just took my first drink of the finished product...it's exactly what I wanted. You can taste the maple syrup on the back end, it still has a lot of apple flavor, as well as a vanilla note in the middle (not sure where that came from). So, for a cheap and quick cider, I think it turned out extremely well, better than I had hoped. Here is the exact recipe in case anyone wants a quick cheap semi-sweet cider:

Treetop 3 Apple Blend Pressed Juice (3 gallons)
White Sugar (1.3 lbs)
White Labs English Cider Yeast
Yeast Nutrient (3 Tbs)

Priming

Maple Syrup (2 oz per 1 gallon)

Bottled at 1.016 and conditioned for 5.5 days.

Ever consider Brandon O's Graff? I'm currently enjoying my first batch - its sweet (1.012ish if I remember right) and carbonated and awesome.

One thing not mentioned here. If you are timid about pasteurizing using boiling water, you can always ferment a batch to bone dry, then back sweeten to your taste using a non fermentable sweetener such as stevia, splenda, lactose, or several others. Once you have it sweetened to taste, add the proper amount of priming sugar for your batch (corn sugar, table sugar, maple syrup etc). Then bottle. The priming sugar will get eaten by the yeast left in suspension and won't over carbonate provides it was done fermenting in the carboy.

divi2323 said:

One thing not mentioned here. If you are timid about pasteurizing using boiling water, you can always ferment a batch to bone dry, then back sweeten to your taste using a non fermentable sweetener such as stevia, splenda, lactose, or several others. Once you have it sweetened to taste, add the proper amount of priming sugar for your batch (corn sugar, table sugar, maple syrup etc). Then bottle. The priming sugar will get eaten by the yeast left in suspension and won't over carbonate provides it was done fermenting in the carboy.

Click to expand...

Just e careful with different sweeteners. They are VERY different! Stevia is like 10x sweeter than regular sugar!!

I ferment my cider all the way dry and keg it with a half cup sugar for natural carbonation in the keg and two pounds of lactose to add a little sweetness and body. It's still a pretty far cry from woodchuck, but closer in sweetness to dessert wine than plain dry white wine.

divi2323 said:

One thing not mentioned here. If you are timid about pasteurizing using boiling water, you can always ferment a batch to bone dry, then back sweeten to your taste using a non fermentable sweetener such as stevia, splenda, lactose, or several others. Once you have it sweetened to taste, add the proper amount of priming sugar for your batch (corn sugar, table sugar, maple syrup etc). Then bottle. The priming sugar will get eaten by the yeast left in suspension and won't over carbonate provides it was done fermenting in the carboy.

Click to expand...

Thanks for all the feedback. So this is a little complicated! Question about the above comment - does this imply that one CAN ferment it all the way out, and then add a little priming sugar/something fermentable, and bottle without everything exploding. Meaning if it's dry enough/done fermenting in the carboy, I can get carbonation through the yeast - it will just stay pretty dry?

As far as SG goes, what's dry, semi-dry, etc.?

Thanks so much!

Re "Ever consider Brandon O's Graff?"

No - what's that?

benyalom said:

Thanks for all the feedback. So this is a little complicated! Question about the above comment - does this imply that one CAN ferment it all the way out, and then add a little priming sugar/something fermentable, and bottle without everything exploding. Meaning if it's dry enough/done fermenting in the carboy, I can get carbonation through the yeast - it will just stay pretty dry?

As far as SG goes, what's dry, semi-dry, etc.?

Thanks so much!

Click to expand...

Yes.

Dry is without any measurable sugars/sweetness, generally .990-.998. Off dry is usually 1.000 or so. Semi sec can be 1.004-1.008 while semi dry can be 1.000-1.003. I think of "sweet" as anything above about 1.010 or so. Those aren't the official definitions, just my interpretation of those terms.

benyalom said:

Re "Ever consider Brandon O's Graff?"

No - what's that?

Click to expand...

Here ya go.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f81/graff-malty-slightly-hopped-cider-117117/

Thanks - so many tasty things to make and drink!

benyalom said:

Thanks for all the feedback. So this is a little complicated! Question about the above comment - does this imply that one CAN ferment it all the way out, and then add a little priming sugar/something fermentable, and bottle without everything exploding. Meaning if it's dry enough/done fermenting in the carboy, I can get carbonation through the yeast - it will just stay pretty dry?

As far as SG goes, what's dry, semi-dry, etc.?

Thanks so much!

Click to expand...

What you're describing will create a dry carbonated cider. Try it, it will surprise you how good it actually is.

It's not overly complicated. Ferment to dry, add about 1/2 to 3/4 cup priming sugar per 5 gallon batch, mix well, and bottle right away. The result is a dry sparkling cider.

If you want it sweet and sparkling, sweeten it with a non fermentable sweetener (stevia works awesome for me at 2tsp per 5 gallon batch for very sweet) and then add the 1/2 to 3/4 cup of priming sugar (table sugar or corn sugar) and mix well and bottle. This produces a sweet sparkling cider.

Neither method should create bottle bombs so long as your measurements are correct for your batch size.

As posted above, there is always the pasteurizing sticky. Even if you don't go this route, there is more knowledge in that whole thread than most of the rest of the cider forum. It's a VERY good read.

Gidday from Australia.
I seriously believe that you cannot make sweet sparkling cider unless adding the sugar just before drinking.
I recently made my first batch using pink lady apples as we do not have the same varieties to choose from as you. Once fully fermented and racked to pure clear liquid and with SG at zero and alcohol at 7% it seems to lose all of its apple flavour and does not taste very nice at all.
I then pasteurised at 70 deg C on the stove top for 30 minutes.
I then had clear, dry cider with no yeast living in it.
By retaining some of the yeast from the bottom of the container at racking you can now add 5 gms of sugar syrup, (must be syrup not granulated) to a 500 ml bottle, add a little yeast liquid then let the yeast go to work. When that 5 gms of sugar has been consumed your bottle would have the right amount if gas in it to sparkle ( in our warm client it takes about two weeks to fizz up). Once that sugar has been consumed the yeast have nothing left so they will go dormant.
Then you need to consult the chart that came with your hydrometer. I calculated that 13 gms of sugar per litre is required to bring your dry cider up to semi-sweet.
So make your sugar syrup by adding a little water to your sugar and stir over low heat until it is a clear liquid. How you add 6 gms to your 500 ml bottle is up to you but I am considering buying an injector of some sort to squirt exactly that amount into a sparkling glass of chilled cider. Yes we like it cold.
Result? You should now have SWEET SPARKLING CIDER without too much fiddling around. As the stock of dry cider has zero sugar in it, it is not going to burst your bottles either, so you can store it on a shelf forever without blowing up the kitchen.

Rgds Cliff Ferguson
Perth, Western Australia.
[email protected]

Or, you can ferment your cider to dry and allow it to clear.
Sweeten to taste(the amount of sugar required to carbonate isn't a lot) and bottle in beer or swing top bottles, filling a small plastic pop bottle up at the same time.
When the pop bottle is hard, drink it and pasteurize all your bottles.

End result = sweet, sparkly and no bottle bombs.

I would suggest using weight with measuring your priming sugar instead of volume. A 1/2 cup of table sugar is usually different from a 1/2 cup of corn sugar. It's trial and error usually, so if you have the weight in your notes, next time you can add a .25 oz up or down and get closer. Just my opinion of course...

Agreed, weight is a better indicator than volume.

Also, I can't stress enough how much better and easier it is to add priming sugar to the entire batch just prior to bottling. One large measurement will give more consistent carbonation across the bottles when compared to 25-50 small measurements.

If you go with non-fermentable sugars, I suggest pure Stevia powder. The stuff like "truvia" have bulking agents that impart a weird off flavors.

I used Kal Stevia powder. Now be careful with it, it's 2000x sweeter than sugar. I'm talking super sweet, and we used a little too much. I'd suggest taking a carefully measured sample, adding measured amounts of sweetener until the desired level is reached, then extrapolating that into a batch.

For example:
Take one cup of cider from fermenter before bottling. Found out that 1/8 teaspoon was a good amount of sweetener. Multiply 1/8th teaspoon by 80 (80 cups in 5 gallons), and determine that 10 teaspoons is an appropriate amount.
(This is purely an example! These numbers will not match your sweetening!)

So much great information! Thank you all. I've clearly got a lot of work ahead of me!

I'm not sure if this is a good idea or not but I did it last year and it worked really well. I bottled a cider when it was just a little too sweet for my tastes, I think 1.024, and then when it carbed up 2 days later it had the right amount of sweetness for me and I threw all the bottles in the refrigerator to stop fermentation. That way I didn't have to pasteurize. I just made sure to open the bottles soon after getting them out of the fridge so they didn't start fermenting again.

Bluespark said:

Or, you can ferment your cider to dry and allow it to clear.
Sweeten to taste(the amount of sugar required to carbonate isn't a lot) and bottle in beer or swing top bottles, filling a small plastic pop bottle up at the same time.
When the pop bottle is hard, drink it and pasteurize all your bottles.

End result = sweet, sparkly and no bottle bombs.

Click to expand...

This is the way I do it too.....carbing only uses. .003-.004

porky_pine said:

I'm not sure if this is a good idea or not but I did it last year and it worked really well. I bottled a cider when it was just a little too sweet for my tastes, I think 1.024, and then when it carbed up 2 days later it had the right amount of sweetness for me and I threw all the bottles in the refrigerator to stop fermentation. That way I didn't have to pasteurize. I just made sure to open the bottles soon after getting them out of the fridge so they didn't start fermenting again.

Click to expand...

This works fine if you can drink them in a timely manner. Keeping them in the fridge will not stop fermentation, it only slows it to a crawl. But if you can knock out a couple of cases in a couple of weeks...this method could work. Just don't forget one in the cold cuts drawer.

LeBreton said:

Agreed, weight is a better indicator than volume.

Also, I can't stress enough how much better and easier it is to add priming sugar to the entire batch just prior to bottling. One large measurement will give more consistent carbonation across the bottles when compared to 25-50 small measurements.

Click to expand...

Yea, I agree that priming the whole batch, rather than individual bottles sounds way easier, plus less handling.

How much primer you think would be a good start for a single gallon batch?

This is my first brew, and im going small and simple... All I find are answers for five gallon batches

For cider, I like a good effervescence, slightly above that of a beer. Just over 1oz per gallon does the trick for me. Alternatively, about 0.003-0.004 points of gravity.

Bluespark said:

Or, you can ferment your cider to dry and allow it to clear.
Sweeten to taste(the amount of sugar required to carbonate isn't a lot) and bottle in beer or swing top bottles, filling a small plastic pop bottle up at the same time.
When the pop bottle is hard, drink it and pasteurize all your bottles.

End result = sweet, sparkly and no bottle bombs.

Click to expand...

What's a ballpark amount of white sugar to add to a dry cider to make it semi-sweet?

1.5 to 2 brix? (1.006 - 1.008?) I'm betting most people's interpretation of semi-sweet will be different though.

I like mine 1.015 to 1.020

LeBreton said:

For cider, I like a good effervescence, slightly above that of a beer. Just over 1oz per gallon does the trick for me. Alternatively, about 0.003-0.004 points of gravity.

Click to expand...

I will try one ounce, thanks.

Pickled_Pepper said:

1.5 to 2 brix? (1.006 - 1.008?) I'm betting most people's interpretation of semi-sweet will be different though.

Click to expand...

that is the range i aim for as well, it depends on if your used to sweet or dry, i prefer dry so semi sweet is pretty sweet for me.

I find different ciders need different amounts of sugar. I used a very small amount in my last apple cider, my first was very tart and needed more, my second is with cranberry and it had a bitter edge that needed sweetness to balance.

Perceived taste is much more important than actual hydrometer reading.