Use as much water as you can so that you end up with about 5.5 gallon when you're finished boiling. I use about 2.6 quarts/pound of grain. But every system is different. I crush my grains twice, mash for 90 minutes, stir and reheat half way through, mash out at 170 deg, and drain for about a half hour and consistently get 72% efficiency.
BIAB Brewing (with pics)
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Use as much water as you can so that you end up with about 5.5 gallon when you're finished boiling. I use about 2.6 quarts/pound of grain. But every system is different. I crush my grains twice, mash for 90 minutes, stir and reheat half way through, mash out at 170 deg, and drain for about a half hour and consistently get 72% efficiency.
SiriusStarr gets an award for coolness - Michaelis-Menten Kinetics and beer...love it.
BUT - as someone who may know about biological reactions, you probably know that a 2 fold reduction in substrate concentration (the relative thinness compared with standard) is really nothing in biological terms - especially when one considers that amazing speed most enzymatic reactions run at. I would bet you would start to make a difference with a 10-fold reduction in substrates, but would be surprised if 2-3 fold would make much of a difference.
My data-free ideas...
BUT - as someone who may know about biological reactions, you probably know that a 2 fold reduction in substrate concentration (the relative thinness compared with standard) is really nothing in biological terms - especially when one considers that amazing speed most enzymatic reactions run at. I would bet you would start to make a difference with a 10-fold reduction in substrates, but would be surprised if 2-3 fold would make much of a difference.
My data-free ideas...
This very closely mirrors the results my friend and I have been seeing since we moved to a full volume BIAB process. We have found that the mashout has a positive effect of adding on average 4 gravity points but that squeezing was a waste of time. So we've stopped squeezing the bag at all.
We simply pull the bag, let it hang over the beam in the garage and drip down into the kettle as we bring it up to a boil. We're consistently achieving efficiencies of 80% and higher.
Squeezing the bag seems to be a given in most of the BIAB processes written up online so I'd be interested in hearing from other people who don't do it.
squeezing works for some.. others get the same efficiency without squeezing. it all works and the best thing about brewing is you can find what works best for you.
Haha, sorry, I'm a biologist, so this is how I perceive the world. XD
Well, it's all a matter of what the substrate concentration is. If the active sites are essentially saturated, then of course the process is rate-limited by the kcat of the enzyme and the enzyme concentration, and a two-fold reduction in substrate isn't going to appreciably change the rate. If the rate-limiting step is formation of the enzyme-substrate complex, then a two-fold reduction is substrate can result in a significant reduction in rate.
That being said, my guess is that alpha-/beta-amylase have pretty small Km's and we have a ridiculously high starch concentration while mashing, so it shouldn't (and it apparently doesn't, since BIAB wokrs) matter.
WileECoyote
Well-Known Member
Hello, (Me Not knowing any better) I wonder if squeezing the bag makes any difference if you only did a 60 min mash instead of 90?, and or doing a partial boil? as I can only pull off a 4 gal boil at the moment.
(I need a bigger pot lol)
Thanks and Cheers
WileECoyote
Well-Known Member
Hello, (Me Not knowing any better) I wonder if squeezing the bag makes any difference if you only did a 60 min mash instead of 90?, and or doing a partial boil? as I can only pull off a 4 gal boil at the moment.
(I need a bigger pot lol)
Thanks and Cheers
yes a partial boil makes a difference. if you can only do a 4 gal boil, make a smaller batch
Sorry if this was already discussed. Whats the advantage of a 90 minute mash? I'm still new to BIAab but I seem to do OK with 60 minutes. Has anyone done any experiments with 60 vs 90 and compared efficiency?
We are experimenting with this at another BIAB website.
Here are results of my last two brews:
brew#1
15 minutes: 7.4 brix/1.0282 (mash temp 154F)
30 minutes: 7.8 brix/1.0298 (mash temp 154F)
45 minutes: 8.6 brix/1.0329 (mash temp 154F)
60 minutes: 10.0 brix/1.0384 (mash temp 152F)
75 minutes: 10.5 brix/1.0404 (mash temp 150F)
I then ramped temp up to mashout (168F) over 15 minutes:
90 minutes: 11.2 brix/1.0432 (mash temp 168F)
I let it sit at mashout temp for 15 minutes:
105 minutes: 11.4 brix/1.0440 (mash temp 167F)
Pull bag and squeeze:
pre-boil: 11.5 brix/1.0444 (mash temp N/A)
brew#2
60 minutes: 7.4 brix/1.0282 (mash temp 154F)
end of 90 minute mash: 7.8 brix/1.0298 (mash temp 154F)
end of 10 minute mashout (168F): 9.0 brix/1.0345
pre-boil (after pulling and squeezing bag): 9.2 brix/1.0353
*(brix converted to sg using Sean Terrill's calculator)
Granted this is a very limited data set but it appears that:
A) the extra 30 minutes in the mash does indeed result in more extraction/higher gravity
B) squeezing the crap out of the bag may not be worth the extra .0005 gravity point!
Nice work!
I'll add the extra grain to avoid the 30 extra minutes...but thats me. For me, the method is about simplicity in process, so a bit of extra grain to get the desired results on my system is worth it.
Thanks. This is exactly why I disregard all the "common knowledge" that is repeated as gospel and actually experiment to determine real world results for myself (on my system, with my processes, etc).
nice data. next brew could you check and see how it compares when you either add extra water up front to compensate for not squeezing or adding top up water. To me that would be a little more diluted than if you squeeze the bag to get the pre-boil volume. Of course that's just MY preferred method and nothing is written in stone here
I'd like to know how much wort we are actually talking about in this "to squeeze or not to squeeze" question. Have you ever squeezed in a container separate from your boil pot and taken volume and gravity measurements? I haven't but am interested to know if we are talking about a pint, mabey 1.5 pints of 1.04 wort, or more like 2-3 quarts? If the case is 1-1.5 pints, would you continue squeezing or sacrifice the pint of wort for the saved time? I'd love to know the amount of grain used, the volume of squeezed wort and the gravity readings y'all come up with. I think this will help us put numbers with the question of weather to squeeze or not to squeeze...mabey
I can squeeze 3-4 quarts...
I do small batches. Grain weight rarely over 5 lbs. So when I squeeze well really I PRESS using to coffee cups w/bag in a collendar I get a lot of liquid. Will have to take some measurements later this week when I brew.
With a standard 5 gallon brew (12+ lbs grain & 8+ gallons of water), I hang the bag over the pot and squeeze to reclaim .75-1 gallon of wort. We're not talking trivial amounts, that's why I prefer to squeeze rather than use a bit of extra grain and/or top up with plain water (and throw away all that good wort!).
My first AG brew I didn't add more grains, and I didn't do any sort of sparge(never do), I mashed for about 70 minutes then a 15 minute mashout. Did not squeeze the bag, just let drip into the kettle as it came up to boil and I got 78% efficiency!
WileECoyote
Well-Known Member
Sorry, I didn't word that part of my question properly, what I meant to ask was, dose squeezing the bag makes any difference if you only do a partial boil, say 4 gal?
Your answer also brings another question to mind, if I were to BIAB a 5 gal recipe and mash it in 4 gal of water, can't I just top off to 5 gal in the fermenting bucket, with the same or close to the same gravity readings as mashing in 5 gal?
Or if its not the same, maybe adding some extra grain to compensate so I can top off?
Cheers
WileECoyote
Well-Known Member
WOW, 1 gal out of 8gal, thats a lot of wort, It sounds to me like the extraction doesn't change by squeezing the bag, but the volume of wort is what would affect the brew.
Cheers
Sorry, I didn't word that part of my question properly, what I meant to ask was, dose squeezing the bag makes any difference if you only do a partial boil, say 4 gal?
Your answer also brings another question to mind, if I were to BIAB a 5 gal recipe and mash it in 4 gal of water, can't I just top off to 5 gal in the fermenting bucket, with the same or close to the same gravity readings as mashing in 5 gal?
Or if its not the same, maybe adding some extra grain to compensate so I can top off?
Cheers
to me yes squeezing makes a difference. but only in the volume of wort collected. On a typical grain bill I recover almost 1 gallon of wort by squeezing.
can you increase the grain bill or mash for 4 gallons using a 5 gallon recipe, sure ya can. but the added sugars could impact hops utilization. however, it shouldnt be much different than doing an extract beer.
WileECoyote
Well-Known Member
Thanks, I saw where you stated about squeezing 1gal extra wort out, that has to make a big difference in a 5 gal batch of beer, Im not exactly sure what percentage different that is, but off the top of my head (with out a calculator) somewhere around 12+ percent difference, depending on pre-boil volume.
Cheers
MMJfan
Well-Known Member
I have a BIAB question. I'm interested in doing an Oberon clone recipe using BIAB. The recipe I'm interested in uses decoction. My question is, has anyone done BIAB with a decoction mash? Or is it not worth the effort with BIAB?
yep... have done a decoction mash and if the clone calls for it do it.. I was very happy with the decoction I did on a hefe. I will be doing a decoction again in a month or 2 when I brew a nice malty german style lager (after I heal from my wrist surgery).
marshallwms
Junior Member
WOW, 1 gal out of 8gal, thats a lot of wort, It sounds to me like the extraction doesn't change by squeezing the bag, but the volume of wort is what would affect the brew.
Cheers
While squeezing, or letting the bag drip into the kettle while raising the wort to boil, doesn't seem to add a lot to the SG of the wort, obviously if you recapture 1 gallon of wort to a 7 gallon boil, taking it up to 8 gallons, you are adding about 14% more sugars to the total amount which will show up when the target post-boil volume is attained. (Sorry for the long sentence.) That is, if you boil down 7 gallons of 1.040 wort to 5 gallons, you end up with a lower SG than if you boil down 8 gallons of 1.040 wort to 5 gallons. So to me, squeezing or just letting it drip makes sense. And letting it drip while going from mashout temps to the boil doesn't take any work if you can suspend the bag somehow with a pulley or colander, etc.
JimTheHick
Well-Known Member
Brewitt said:
+2 it's all about the extra volume.
It's not that there is some secret 1.090 wort caged up on the grain bag!
Greetings! This thread inspired me to start tinkering with BIAB all grain about six months ago, thank you Seven. It is a great technique, a real revolution. In my constant quest to simplify and optimize I came up with a way to brew ten gallon batches very easily using a BIAB system with no extra equipment. I have made a video about it here if anybody is interested:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/sids-one-vessel-all-grain-brewing-system-360364/
The gist of it is to use multiple bags when you do a BIAB in a tall vessel to do 10+ gallon batches. I can do two ten gallon batches at the same time solo using this technique!
Enjoy!
Sid Bedi
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/sids-one-vessel-all-grain-brewing-system-360364/
The gist of it is to use multiple bags when you do a BIAB in a tall vessel to do 10+ gallon batches. I can do two ten gallon batches at the same time solo using this technique!
Enjoy!
Sid Bedi
Sid, Watched your video, very nicely done. I do the same except I use two bags, mashout at 170-175 deg and then sparge in about 2 gallons of 175 deg water (my hose water is pretty nasty). In the end I take my bags of grain and drop them into a bucket with holes in the bottom which is suspended inside another bucket and I push to squeeze the xs wort out. Together the first wort, the sparge water and the squeezings make up my full volume. Probably no necessity to mash out but that is the proceedure I have come up with and its working well for me. Also, regular old large black binder clips from an office supply fit great over the upper ring of the keggle. Thanks for your ideas.
There has been a bunch of back and forth lately about squeezing the grain bag and weather it's worth the effort. So the other day I did a brew and took careful notes.
This is what I came up with.
4.43 lbs of grain mashed in 1.5 gallons in my 5 gallon Colman cooler.
From this I got 1.2 gallons from just the dripping w/a brix of 18.5 (1.073)
Squeezed another 0.1 gallon w/a brix of 20 (1.079)
-----------------------------------------------------------------
That gave me 1.3 gallons w/a brix of 19 (1.075)
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Put bag back in cooler and slowly added 1.5 gallons of water at 170*
This gave me an aditional 1.4 gallons w/a brix of 5 (1.0168)
Squeezed another 0.1 gallons w/a brix of 12 (1.045)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That gave me a total of 1.8 gallons w/a brix of 12.8 (1.049) pre-boil
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I was supprised that I got back the whole 1.5 gallons of sparge water.
Then it hit me. The grain was saturated with 0.2 gallons of water from the mash
So it could not absorbe any of the sparge water and it all came out in the squeeze.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Post boil volume was 2.15 gallons w/a brix of 16.2 (1.063)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've done this brew twice before w/o sparge but always boiled down to about 1.8 gallons which gave me a brix of about 18 (1.071). Less liquid/same grain higher SG
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
So it looks like sparging or rinsing did little except take time and effort.
Since I squeezed all three times I can't compare squeezing or not but...
It looks like my sparge/rinse was a waist of time and effort.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
But I think the squeeze is needed to get the volume of wort needed. If not
I'd have to add more grain which means more money and since I'm retired
I have more time than money so I'll continue to squeeze and eliminate the sparge
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is what I came up with.
4.43 lbs of grain mashed in 1.5 gallons in my 5 gallon Colman cooler.
From this I got 1.2 gallons from just the dripping w/a brix of 18.5 (1.073)
Squeezed another 0.1 gallon w/a brix of 20 (1.079)
-----------------------------------------------------------------
That gave me 1.3 gallons w/a brix of 19 (1.075)
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Put bag back in cooler and slowly added 1.5 gallons of water at 170*
This gave me an aditional 1.4 gallons w/a brix of 5 (1.0168)
Squeezed another 0.1 gallons w/a brix of 12 (1.045)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That gave me a total of 1.8 gallons w/a brix of 12.8 (1.049) pre-boil
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I was supprised that I got back the whole 1.5 gallons of sparge water.
Then it hit me. The grain was saturated with 0.2 gallons of water from the mash
So it could not absorbe any of the sparge water and it all came out in the squeeze.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Post boil volume was 2.15 gallons w/a brix of 16.2 (1.063)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've done this brew twice before w/o sparge but always boiled down to about 1.8 gallons which gave me a brix of about 18 (1.071). Less liquid/same grain higher SG
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
So it looks like sparging or rinsing did little except take time and effort.
Since I squeezed all three times I can't compare squeezing or not but...
It looks like my sparge/rinse was a waist of time and effort.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
But I think the squeeze is needed to get the volume of wort needed. If not
I'd have to add more grain which means more money and since I'm retired
I have more time than money so I'll continue to squeeze and eliminate the sparge
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
WileECoyote
Well-Known Member
Hello C-Rider, Great job, Thanks.
Cheers
Cheers
WileECoyote
Well-Known Member
Hello marshallwms, That makes perfect sense.
Thanks
Cheers
Thanks
Cheers
WileECoyote
Well-Known Member
Hello sidbedi, Great idea splitting up the grain, making it easily manageable for one person is awesome.
Nice video bu the way.
Cheers
Nice video bu the way.
Cheers
I've been searching the forum to see if anyone has successfully done a 10 gallon BIAB? I'm going to set up a pulley system to handle the weight of the bag.
My concern is whether my 20 gallon boilermaker will hold the grain bill and water? I'm also thinking of using the hop blocker at the bottom....using a tapered bag from Jeff Omundsun. Another thought is to go partial mash....grain for five gallons and extract for the rest. Any thoughts?
My concern is whether my 20 gallon boilermaker will hold the grain bill and water? I'm also thinking of using the hop blocker at the bottom....using a tapered bag from Jeff Omundsun. Another thought is to go partial mash....grain for five gallons and extract for the rest. Any thoughts?
Didn't sidbedi just cover that in his video?
1.st post from Finnish lurker 
, my 2 cents:
If you squeeze grain bag you waste less wort in grains.
That means that you can use less water overall and still get amount of pre boil wort you want.
Because you can use less water, wort is less diluted and SG is higher, and that means you can use little bit less grains to get same SG than without squeezing, and you get efficieny gain !
Squeezing works same way than batch sparging. When you do batch sparge you dilute wort that is remaining in grains, so you waste less of it. When you squeeze, the wort remaining in grains is still stronger stuff, but you waste much less of it.
EDIT: I noticed that by squeezing I actually do not mean really "squeezing" , but letting wort drip out of bag somehow. I have not actually measured how much more wort is removed from grains if I really squeeze bag vs I just let it hang and drip slowly on top of kettle.
Here Iam mashing 5gal's of 1.100 Barley Wine, total efficiency according to Beersmith2 was 70%, it is enough for me, did not do batch sparge :
Brew kettle (50l) has 3000w custom made immersion element and it is controlled with arduino based control box. Software is home made (Iam SW engineer), DS18S20 digital temperature sensor monitoring wort temperature and cheap chinese pump doing wort circulation. Out of picture is winch which Iam using to lift grain bag out of kettle. Iam very happy with this setup, works excellently.
, my 2 cents: If you squeeze grain bag you waste less wort in grains.
That means that you can use less water overall and still get amount of pre boil wort you want.
Because you can use less water, wort is less diluted and SG is higher, and that means you can use little bit less grains to get same SG than without squeezing, and you get efficieny gain !
Squeezing works same way than batch sparging. When you do batch sparge you dilute wort that is remaining in grains, so you waste less of it. When you squeeze, the wort remaining in grains is still stronger stuff, but you waste much less of it.
EDIT: I noticed that by squeezing I actually do not mean really "squeezing" , but letting wort drip out of bag somehow. I have not actually measured how much more wort is removed from grains if I really squeeze bag vs I just let it hang and drip slowly on top of kettle.
Here Iam mashing 5gal's of 1.100 Barley Wine, total efficiency according to Beersmith2 was 70%, it is enough for me, did not do batch sparge :
Brew kettle (50l) has 3000w custom made immersion element and it is controlled with arduino based control box. Software is home made (Iam SW engineer), DS18S20 digital temperature sensor monitoring wort temperature and cheap chinese pump doing wort circulation. Out of picture is winch which Iam using to lift grain bag out of kettle. Iam very happy with this setup, works excellently.
mnmatt said:
My friend and I have cranked out quite a number of 10 gallon BIAB batches in a 20 gallon Boilermaker. Works great. We don't use the hop blocker but we do keep the false bottom in to filter out the break and hops.
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