21% All grain brew.

So I'm working on a 20% + ABV all grains with absolutely no sugar added. I was inspired by the beer called caused of death. I recently made a clone of DFH120 IPA In which I have added a lot of sugar and want to explore the other route to make a massively strong beer without resorting to freeze it like Brewdog does.

I d'like to make it an IPA.
Here the planned recipe:
35.88 lbs Marris otter
2.6 lbs Crystal 60L
2.6 lbs Carapils

Hops:
3oz of Apollo 19% 43 IBU at 60'
3oz Summit 17.5 30 IBU at 30'
1oz cascade 6% 2 IBU at 15'
1oz cascade 6% 2 IBU at 10'
1oz cascade 6% 1 IBU at 5'
2oz cascade 6% at Flame out.

Yeast:
Gallons starter of WLP 001
Gallon starter of WLP 099

Mash 60" with 15.4 gallons at 170F
Sparge 4.8 gallons at 172

Boil volume 14.03gallons
Final volume 5.8 gallons.
I estimate that the boil will last 3 hours in 2 kettles then combine them into one for the final boil down for about another 1 1/2h.

OG 1.194 est
FG 1.031est

I have ordered an oxygen set up to aerate the yeast before pitching.
I will start the fermentation with only 2 gallons of the wort, the rest will be pasteurised and store in air tight container. I will then add regularly more wort until I reach the full volume. As not to stress the yeast and hopefully get a nice attenuation.

I reckon that i will keep it 2 months in the primary then until spring next year to bottle it.

I would appreciate any critiques or suggestion of my recipe.

Thanks.

Whether you do 2 gallons or 5 gallons of wort, the OG is still going to be 1.194 so you're still going to stress your yeast. Plus, you want to aerate the wort, not the yeast.

Also, you're going to have almost zero fermentables if you mash at 170*F

If you want higher attenuation you're going to have to use some kind of highly fermentable sugar, or mash at 148*F for longer than 60 minutes.

bring that mash temp down...mash out with 170 for like 10 min...

Sorry that is the strike temp, so the mash temp should be around 150.

As for the OG the reasoning is that adding some wort over time will cause the yeast to stress less since there will be only 2 gallons then by adding 1/2 gallons that should make the yeast last longer and attenuate better.

Akavango said:

As for the OG the reasoning is that adding some wort over time will cause the yeast to stress less since there will be only 2 gallons then by adding 1/2 gallons that should make the yeast last longer and attenuate better.

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Hmm... that's not really how it works.

The reason people add sugar over time is to slowly raise the original gravity. Your wort gravity will be constant (pre-fermentation, obviously) regardless of volume and that kind of osmotic pressure will most certainly stress the yeast.

This the recipe I got my inspiration from. It worked for him. Hey Home brewing is all about experimenting but I'm open to suggestions. If it does work then I'll have to try it again later but this time with all the wort at once in the fermenter.

http://***********/stories/techniqu...ll-grain-brewing/51-21-alcohol-all-grain-beer

Good Luck!

knuckleheadbrewing said:

Good Luck!

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Thanks! I'll keep this thread updates with the progress.

id mash even lower than 150 and probably over night unless you plan on adding beano like in the BYO article. i'd also ditch the carapils & crystal, with that high of OG it def won't need any added body (plus you won't want any added unfermentables)

I would ferment with a brewers yeast until the gravity starts to flatten out. Then add some more fermentables with a distillers yeast to finish it off.

Akavango said:

This the recipe I got my inspiration from. It worked for him. Hey Home brewing is all about experimenting but I'm open to suggestions. If it does work then I'll have to try it again later but this time with all the wort at once in the fermenter.

http://***********/stories/techniqu...ll-grain-brewing/51-21-alcohol-all-grain-beer

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Oh, sorry if it seemed like I was being discouraging. I was pointing out some things you might have to think about in order to get a quality beer that is exactly what you're looking for.

Experimentation is awesome and most definitely my favorite part of brewing.

I would go with just a single base grain, like Maris Otter. The biggest obstacle obviously is going to be to get it to ferment out all the way. I would either step mash or mash really low for at least 90 minutes. Make sure you add some yeast nutrient...those poor yeasties are going to need all the help they can get. I don't think you can add to much O2 for this beer. It goes without saying that you will need a HUGE starter of fresh yeast and see how far that can take you. You will most likely have to pitch a secondary strain (distiller's yeast ?)to get it to finish. Good luck!!

Here is an idea you might try that I saw. Start with you two gallons or so, but the stuff that you add later: boil it down more into a thin syrup(with carmalizing if you can). That was is kind of similar to adding sugar to raise the OG, but its still all grain. That way your original 2 gallon wort can be at a more reasonable gravity to start( say 1.12ish instead of 1.19). You willl get the benefits of starting with a lower gravity, the benefits of adding sugar during active fermentation, and still be all grain no extra sugar. Good luck, ijust keep an eye on the gravity as it ferments and stop adding sugar when it stops fermenting so you at least have some beer that is drinkable as opposed to 5 gallons of sickly sweet beer.

Phunhog said:

I would go with just a single base grain, like Maris Otter. The biggest obstacle obviously is going to be to get it to ferment out all the way. I would either step mash or mash really low for at least 90 minutes. Make sure you add some yeast nutrient...those poor yeasties are going to need all the help they can get. I don't think you can add to much O2 for this beer. It goes without saying that you will need a HUGE starter of fresh yeast and see how far that can take you. You will most likely have to pitch a secondary strain (distiller's yeast ?)to get it to finish. Good luck!!

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I'm all set on the recipe yet and may do a single grain. I can't do a step mash, i'm not set up for that. I will be adding some plenty of nutrients.

I'm already pitching two yeast the WLP 001 and the 099 which is specifically for very high gravity beers.

JollyIsTheRoger said:

Here is an idea you might try that I saw. Start with you two gallons or so, but the stuff that you add later: boil it down more into a thin syrup(with carmalizing if you can). That was is kind of similar to adding sugar to raise the OG, but its still all grain. That way your original 2 gallon wort can be at a more reasonable gravity to start( say 1.12ish instead of 1.19). You willl get the benefits of starting with a lower gravity, the benefits of adding sugar during active fermentation, and still be all grain no extra sugar. Good luck, ijust keep an eye on the gravity as it ferments and stop adding sugar when it stops fermenting so you at least have some beer that is drinkable as opposed to 5 gallons of sickly sweet beer.

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Interesting idea. Have you tried it?

dcp27 said:

id mash even lower than 150 and probably over night unless you plan on adding beano like in the BYO article. i'd also ditch the carapils & crystal, with that high of OG it def won't need any added body (plus you won't want any added unfermentables)

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Thanks for the advice, How low would you mash it at?

gmiller5m said:

I would ferment with a brewers yeast until the gravity starts to flatten out. Then add some more fermentables with a distillers yeast to finish it off.

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Wouldn't the WLP 099 be enough? Or would a distiller yeast be necessary? the Wlp 099 is supposedly good up to 25% ABV.

Akavango said:

Interesting idea. Have you tried it?

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I haven't no, but I have seen it done for barleywines and Impy Stouts with good results. The issues would just be making sure you dont caramelize the sugars in your syrup and create unfermentables(same thing with your over extended boil). Keep it barely at a boil and only crank it up to a roaring boil near the end to drive off DMS and stuff like that.

As for the mash time, I don't think an overnight mash would be necessary, you could just do an hour like normal or bump it up if you are nervous, but it shouldnt need more time since its mostly base malt you have plenty of enzymes there to work for you.

You should be brewing full 5 gallon low gravity beer as a starter to build up the yeast. Mash a 148F for two hours. I agree with ditching the cara malts altogether. The richness of the malt will be good enough and you'll be lucky to reach a final gravity that doesn't leave it tasting like malt syrup. The extra sugar in big recipes is to have it dry out a bit.

JollyIsTheRoger said:

I haven't no, but I have seen it done for barleywines and Impy Stouts with good results. The issues would just be making sure you dont caramelize the sugars in your syrup and create unfermentables(same thing with your over extended boil). Keep it barely at a boil and only crank it up to a roaring boil near the end to drive off DMS and stuff like that.

As for the mash time, I don't think an overnight mash would be necessary, you could just do an hour like normal or bump it up if you are nervous, but it shouldnt need more time since its mostly base malt you have plenty of enzymes there to work for you.

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I use an electric kettle without any power control so adjusting the boil is out of the question. My kettle is either on or off.

As for the mash I will bump it up to 90'

Bobby_M said:

You should be brewing full 5 gallon low gravity beer as a starter to build up the yeast. Mash a 148F for two hours. I agree with ditching the cara malts altogether. The richness of the malt will be good enough and you'll be lucky to reach a final gravity that doesn't leave it tasting like malt syrup. The extra sugar in big recipes is to have it dry out a bit.

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Several people have suggested to dump the cara malts, so I think that I may just use Marris otter. I don't really have the time to brew another beer before this one to build up the yeast as in Ireland, the fall is just around the corner. I have to do it now if I want to have the proper temp for fermentation.

Reno_eNVy said:

Whether you do 2 gallons or 5 gallons of wort, the OG is still going to be 1.194 so you're still going to stress your yeast. Plus, you want to aerate the wort, not the yeast.

Also, you're going to have almost zero fermentables if you mash at 170*F

If you want higher attenuation you're going to have to use some kind of highly fermentable sugar, or mash at 148*F for longer than 60 minutes.

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Please don't think I'm trying to argue with you but I have given a lot of thought to this brew and your suggestion.

I think that adding wort little by little will be better for the fermentation process and this is why.

If I add 22 liters of wort at 1.194 it will be a huge assault on the yeast. But If I start with 2 gallons and with the huge starter I will make, the yeast will be less stressed. After 2 to 3 days the gravity of the initial fermented wort will be much lower and adding a lesser quantity of a strong gravity wort into a lower gravity wort will dilute it and therefore make it less difficult to ferment.

If my OG is 1.194 and after 3 days it has come down to let's say 1.060. Adding half a gallon of 1.194 will raise the Gravity in the fermenter but not to 1.194. The rise in gravity will lessen as the amount of wort I'll be adding event tough it will be the same amount every times, the percentage of wort added compared to the fermented one will be steadily decreasing.

So my thinking is that the yeast won't have to start all over from the top with every addition of wort but deal with a FG that will increase regurlarly but to a lower amount that the previous time.

I'll calculate in quarts
(8 X 1060 ) + (2 X 1194) = 10868
10868/10 = OG of 1.086,8 after the first addition of wort.

Can anybody tell me if that reasonning is sound?

The reasoning if perfectly sound. And I wasn't implying that the additions would get the gravity back up to 1.194 I'm just saying you might not want to start at 1.194.

I was just trying to point out that if you pitch just your yeast slurry into wort of 1.194 that they will probably undergo some osmotic shock (i.e. the cells will basically implode by trying to expel their water to make the environment more isotonic.) In the BYO article it seems like he made a 1 gallon starter at 1.066 but never drained off the liquid from the starter. Then he added only 1 gallon of 1.2-ish wort, which would severely dilute the initial 2 gallons and make for a less hazardous environment. In my most humble opinion, I'd recommend doing that.

Akavango said:

Please don't think I'm trying to argue with you but I have given a lot of thought to this brew and your suggestion.

I think that adding wort little by little will be better for the fermentation process and this is why.

If I add 22 liters of wort at 1.194 it will be a huge assault on the yeast. But If I start with 2 gallons and with the huge starter I will make, the yeast will be less stressed. After 2 to 3 days the gravity of the initial fermented wort will be much lower and adding a lesser quantity of a strong gravity wort into a lower gravity wort will dilute it and therefore make it less difficult to ferment.

If my OG is 1.194 and after 3 days it has come down to let's say 1.060. Adding half a gallon of 1.194 will raise the Gravity in the fermenter but not to 1.194. The rise in gravity will lessen as the amount of wort I'll be adding event tough it will be the same amount every times, the percentage of wort added compared to the fermented one will be steadily decreasing.

So my thinking is that the yeast won't have to start all over from the top with every addition of wort but deal with a FG that will increase regurlarly but to a lower amount that the previous time.

I'll calculate in quarts
(8 X 1060 ) + (2 X 1194) = 10868
10868/10 = OG of 1.086,8 after the first addition of wort.

Can anybody tell me if that reasonning is sound?

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I think what might screw you up some is not the gravity points but rather that you will already have alcohol in the beer. You are asking the yeast to ferment a 1.086 beer that is already 6-8 % alcohol. Definetly not the best conditions for healthy yeast reproduction.

Akavango said:

I use an electric kettle without any power control so adjusting the boil is out of the question. My kettle is either on or off.

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Not to be a dick, but you might be better off spending that cash on better equipment rather than 40lbs.+ of grain for a single batch.

Reno_eNVy said:

In the BYO article it seems like he made a 1 gallon starter at 1.066 but never drained off the liquid from the starter. Then he added only 1 gallon of 1.2-ish wort, which would severely dilute the initial 2 gallons and make for a less hazardous environment. In my most humble opinion, I'd recommend doing that.

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Perfectly reasonnable point Sir! I guess more research is in order. Thanks for the brain storming.

Phunhog said:

I think what might screw you up some is not the gravity points but rather that you will already have alcohol in the beer. You are asking the yeast to ferment a 1.086 beer that is already 6-8 % alcohol. Definetly not the best conditions for healthy yeast reproduction.

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Well I'll find out soon enough. The original recipes seems to have work just this way. It's by making mistake that you learn more.

danielbt said:

Not to be a dick, but you might be better off spending that cash on better equipment rather than 40lbs.+ of grain for a single batch.

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Not that i think you are a dick, i do not. But I live in small apartment that is already taken by beer making equipement and 8 constantly fermenting buckets. So buying more equipment is out of the question.

I also make perfectly good beer but I want to experiment and have fun with it. If it fails so be it.

So I'm brewing this monster on sunday if I can get a second kettle. I did a 1.5l starter last week, then ramped it up to 3.5 liters and this morning made a huge 10l starter with nutrients and aeration. I will aerate it every day as well as add nutrients.

I'm still debating on the amount of grains I will use but will only use Marris Otter. I'm thinking about 21 kg of it. That should result about 42Lof wort after the mash and I will sparge with 32L bring the boil volume to about 74L. I will then boil it in 2 separate kettles and and bring the voulme to 16L each before combinning them into one kettle to bring the volume down to 24L.
In all I reckon the boil will last about 6h. I lose about 4L per 90'.

I will pitch only half of the yeast initially with about a gallon of starter liquid. and start a new starter just in case fermetation stall. My 10 liter started has on OG of 1072. This should reduce the initial shock of the high gravity when it comes into contact with the yeast (thanks Reno).I will add about 6 liter of cooled wort to the fermenter and stock the rest of it in 1L flip top bottles. I will also pasteurise them for about 20'.

With every wort addition I plan to boil some of it with Nutrients. I will add about 2L everytimes at the beginning and check the gravity every times. I will aerate it also of course.

I will keep the leftover starter in case I need repitching or If all else fails I can pitch rest of the wort in to the bucket and eventually later combine them both. But I will see if it is necessary.

I plan to use beano during the mash and every second wort addtion. I reckon about 6 -8 pills in the mash and 2 per wort addition.

I hope this will work but it will be a good experience anyhow.

I brewed a 20%ish stout this summer. I mashed over night, no chilled half of it to add the next day and if I could have I would have canned the first runnings to add later but added in some molasses later for a similar effect. I also put it onto a huge yeast cake from a previous stout that seriously built up the cell count. Oxygenate the hell out of it or try olive oil (I used olive oil and it worked well). Definitely keep the recipe simple and consider adding some sugar in there to dry it out as it's going to be really sweet no matter what you do, with a long boil you'll be making a lot of unfermentables that are going to make the beer sweeter. Also consider aging it on oak, I think it would be a good compliment to these imperial barleywines and balance the heat of the alcohol. My stout finished a touch over 1.01 and still felt thick as well as hot.

:Edit: Totally missed the no sugar added thing, but I still think the sugar added would help with a beer that high in ABV. A big all grain beer definitely can be done, but it would be hard to avoid the cloying sweetness.

I would love to age it in a oak barrel but they are hard to find here in Ireland. I guess I could contact a few distillery to see if I could purchase one from them. I have some american oak chip that I have added to a previous brew with great effect. I was already thinking of aging it with those chips.

I get your point about adding sugar but the whole point of doing this brew is to do an all grain without added sugars. I guess that as a last resort I might just do that. I'm not there yet.

As for the recipe it will be single malt and not too much hops so that hops compound won't hurt the yeast.

How long did you age your stout before drinking it?

Good luck. Look forward to hearing how this goes. Beano in the mash?

It spent two months in the carboy before I bottled it two weeks ago, I may open up one soon just to see how it's doing but they'll sit for a while still. For me it only needed two weeks before the gravity was pretty low, the yeast ate it up very quick and it was hard to keep the temps down without a fermentation chamber. I let it sit in a dark room in the 60s the first night but temps rose up to the mid 80s by morning and I put it in a cooler with water and ice to lower the temps to something more reasonable. The taste at bottling was a good balance of bourbon from bourbon barrel cubes that balanced the thick sweetness, they're much easier to add than taking care of a barrel if you can even find a small one. The brew club I just joined bought up some used casks from Goose Island here in Chicago for very cheap but they were all 53 gallons and needed a lot of people brewing to fill them up.

What was your OG? Did you dump it all on the thrub? Or did you go gradually. What kind of yeast did you use?

I poured in the second runnings directly on the trub and no chilled the first runnings (two boils) to add the day after and then added molasses a few days after that. I'm not sure exactly what the OG was because I added everything together at different times and my hydrometer was broken, but the calculated was 1.165 or 1.159 without the molasses. I used a huge yeast cake of WLP 099 the Super High Gravity yeast, on their site they also have suggestions on how to get it to work all the way up to 25%. It might almost be worth ordering the yeast straight from their site to get the healthiest yeast possible. My FG was 1.01 but it still tastes sweet even with the coffee, bourbon oak, and tons of roasted malt. I opened my first bottle last night and it actually had the slightest bit of detectable carbonation, it was thicker than any beer I've ever tried and not as much alcohol heat that I felt at bottling.

I only offer my experience at super high gravity brews. I have an RIS that had an OG of 1.115 that I racked to a fresh yeast cake of WLP004. I aerated it with pure O2 for a couple of minutes. It slowed down within 2 days of fermenting and was at 1.032. Pretty good apparent attenuation on the 004. Then I added 3 lbs of honey....and aerated again. It stopped fermenting at 1.042. I made a 2 quart yeast starter of WLP099 and aerated the starter for a couple of minutes....then pitched.

Within 24 hours it was down to 1.015. My fermentation temp was a steady 70°F. I wanted to take it up to 18% ABV with more fermentables; but decided to leave it just above 16%. I crashed it at 31°F for three days.

My point is that when I brew super high gravity, during early fermentation I will aerate with O2. With my 2nd yeast addition, I aerated my starter so that the yeast cells would have strong cell walls....but not the primary wort.

I have an awesome RIS that is about to rest in an oak whiskey barrel for awhile. There's no hot solventy taste and it has a nice(but not huge) alcohol perception. This one will be nice when it reaches it's stride.

I had a 20% ABV barley wine 2 years ago that the WLP099 took down to 0.995....it was rocket fuel for sure with no body at all.....that's why when this RIS hit 1.015 that i crashed it immediately to stop fermentation.

Good luck !

Actually I have an ipa that i can put in the secondary and use the thrub of it to start this brew. The wlp is not building as much of a thrub as I was hoping for despite the daily aerating and nutrient feeding.

The Ipa has a nice thick thrub of wlp001 that would work great (I hope) while I feed a new starter to the wlp99. I'm going to crash the 099 starter overnight and see if by how much the thrub is increasing. I'm not set yet.

I have to say I have never given this much tough to a brew before.

I would be happy too if it could end at about 1.015.

TheBreweryUnderground said:

I used a huge yeast cake of WLP 099 the Super High Gravity yeast, on their site they also have suggestions on how to get it to work all the way up to 25%. It might almost be worth ordering the yeast straight from their site to get the healthiest yeast possible.

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Ordering straight from white Lab is not an option they don't ship to individual overseas and the cost would be prohibitive (about $30 for shipping only). My supplier get really fresh batches everytimes and I never had a problem with the yeast i got from him. That specific tube was only 3 weeks old when I pitched in my first starter.

Your beer sound really tasty.

Mash is under way a 147F for 90'. I had to leave a couple of liters of the mash because there simply wasn't any room left. I have never seen it this full. I put 7 crushed beano tab into it.

I almost had an electrical problem, the 2 kettles were too much for the fuse. it kept blowing up. Fortunately an extension cord saved the day.

I decided to use the thrub of wlp 001 and will pitch the wlp later during the week when fermentation stalls. The yeast is being washed.

This is going to be a long brew day.

Yikes.. That tun is FULL!

Have fun sparging that!