About ready to quit brewing, help...

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MrMcPeach

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4 batches in a row now and after about 4 weeks bottled I am getting way overcarbed beer (only using about 3oz priming sugar on average).

The beer tastes great after the first couple of weeks and after a couploe more I get beer that is way too fizzy and has no taste.

A couple of batches ago I cleaned the crap out of everything. Soaked in bleach, then oxi cleaned, then sanitized every piece of gear and cleaned every bottle too.

I have made Apfelwein with all the same stuff and it was perfect. Just the beers seem to get screwed up.

This happened when I first started brewing. Then I made some batches that were fine, then I made a string of bad batches.

My friend uses almost all my equipment and makes good beer. The only things that are solely used by me are my carboys and air locks/blow off tubes.

What could I be doing wrong? Do I just need to replace all my carboys/blow off tubes?

This is making me crazy.
 
How long are you letting it sit in primary and how do you know your fermentation is finished? If your fermentation isn't complete and you bottle prematurely, I'd suspect it could cause the problems you describe...

As is often the case, more info would help with any diagnosis...

Mals
 
It could be that you aren't waiting long enough before you bottle your beer. This means that the yeast would continue to ferment (and carbonate) your beer inside the bottle, giving you the excess carbonation.

It sounds like your equipment is clean, so I would allow your beer to sit a few more days in the primary or secondary before you bottle. This will ensure that the yeast is done fermenting. A good sign is when there is thick layer of white sediment (the spent yeast) at the bottom of your carboy.

Hope this helps.
 
4 weeks in the bottle or 4 weeks since you brewed?

If you're heading straight to bottles after only 1 week, and not taking grav readings to make sure fermentation is complete, and adding more sugar to carb, then your beers are gushing because they're over carbed because there was still sugar needing to be eaten.
 
I am talking 4 weeks IN the bottle, after fermentation. I guessed that longer in the carboys would help and for the last few batches I have done 2 weeks primary and 2 weeks secondary. Figured that was long enough to avoid any issues and let things de-gas etc.
 
If that's the case, then more than likely you DO have infection issues...there's something in your bottling setup that is harboring a nasty, like in your spigot perhaps?

Give us your bottling/ bottling day sanitization routine.
 
As for knowing that the beer is done fermenting, I broke my hydrometer a while back and didn't replace it. But is it likely that so many batches in a row (none of them particularly high gravity) would not be fully fermented after 4 weeks?
 
Bottling routine:

Bottles are oxi cleaned and bottle brushed then rinsed several times and stored upside down after use.

On bottlimg day all bottles are rinsed with the spray thing you attach to the faucet and then sanitized while the sugar boils. I boil for 10-15 mins.

I sanitize the bottling bucket, including spiggot, which I unscrew and sanitize the bottling wand and syphon too. (should I be having to use PBW on everything aswell before this?)

The carboy is also filled with sanitizer and periodically rolled around and shaken.

Bottle caps are sanitized in Star san.

Empty carboy of sanitizer, rack beer into bottling bucket on top of sugar. Bottle beer.

I don;t think I missed anything, but believe me I am pretty anal about this since starting to have problems.
 
If your fermentation got stuck? Yes it could. Until you racked it to bottles and added more sugar, and kicked up the yeast into suspension, and put the bottles in a warm place, you could possibly kickstart fermentation....

I doubt the odds that you could have 5 stuck fermentations in a row though....but a hydrometer is really the only way to know....

Yeast was re-awakened after 45 million years enclosed in amber, and a beer was brewed with it..so I don't put it past them. They're sneaky basturds, and they'll do anything to get to turn sugar into alcohol, even if they get sidetracked for awhile. Wake em up and anyhting is possible.
 
I presume bleach would kill EVERYTHING that could cause an infection.

Is it possible that it would not, and a couple of new carboys and blowoffs would be the best route?
 
I had an earwig in my spigot and a gram+ bacteria in my wand spring. I now make sure to clean a lot better. Bleach is not a fix all for cleaning...
 
So many variables. Glass or plastic carboys? What yeast strains? Fresh starsan? How old is your tubing? Stainless or plastic racking cain? Where do you get your ingredients? What sugar for priming?
 
Better bottles. Yeast has been wyeast neo brittania, irish ale yeast, american ale yeast and one other I don't recall. Fresh star san every time. Tubing has gone through about 10 batches. Plastic racking cane. Kits have come from northern brewer and sometimes I have bought grains individually from my LHBS. Always use regular corn sugar for priming.
 
You said the overcarbed beer has no flavor, but have you noticed any off flavors? Any flavors or scents that you would describe as sour or funky?
 
What's your star San mixture/ dilution ratio ? How exactly are you sanitizing the bottle? I never dunked mine, bought the vinator right from the start and never looked back. That thing soaked each bottle with sanitizer like none other.

Also, what kits are you brewing? Have you let another brewer who doesn't have these problems taste your beer after the four weeks in bottles?

Sometimes as brewers, we tend to over think things, and although I'm not saying that's what's happened here, it's possible to create problems that actually don't exist.

I wouldn't rush out to spend money on all new fermenters yet, not until you send someone some samples to see what's going on.
 
My first 2 beers...didnt temp control during fermentation, both ended up around 1.022, stayed same for a few days, decided to bottle, both were massively overcarbed. Think the fermentation took the temp so high that it shocked the yeast, and they dropped out of suspension. Either that or i underpitched and by the time things kicked off lots were dropping out.

Even after getting temp under control I had my 5th batch stick at about the same point, threw in a packet of champagne yeast which got it down to 1.015 or so.
 
The beer doesn't seem to have off flavors, just not really much flavor at all.

My star san ratio may have been eyeballed at first (useing too much probably), but that is another thing I got very anal about and recently have been measuring my star san exactly as the bottle says.

I use a vinator to sanitize my bottles.

My brewing buddy has sampled the beers too and agrees they are not really drinkable.

I am wondering if temp control is an issue during fermentation. I have a swamp cooler set up but seem to have a hard time keeping brews much below 70 and they do occassionally get above that by a degree or 2. Fermentation temp is also not perfectly stable and does fluctutate by a degree or 2 as I add ice to cool, which then warms up throughout the day.

Would dropping champagne yeast in have any negative affects or change the taste of the beer? I could do that to make sure fermentation doesn't stick.
 
I have been using a swamp cooler and NB kits since July 1. 3 kits ready 2 more in the queue and the first 3 were very good. I have some fluctuation in temps but no problem keeping the temperature in the low 60's. Mine is a Sterilite 66 qt container with top. I had to cut holes in the top for the necks of the BB's and then wrapped the whole thing with the bubble wrap from my incoming shipments and some towels. Mid summer I had to change ice bottles 3-4 times a day, now just one bottle in the morning and again in the evening.

Sorry I have no other ideas concerning your problems.
 
Sorry to spam the board. If my fermentation got stuck, would it not start again as the beer warms up during secondary fermentation (I have the beer at room temp for secondary usually).
 
MrMcPeach said:
I presume bleach would kill EVERYTHING that could cause an infection.

Is it possible that it would not, and a couple of new carboys and blowoffs would be the best route?
Click to expand...

Not if you have some scratches in your plastics. I'd probably replace every bit of cold side plastic and tubing and try again. I make a habit of replacing my plastic components every year, it's probably overkill, but in the long run it's cheaper than losing a batch or two to infection.
 
The more I think about this, it must be something along the lines of a stuck fermentation. This might explain why the last 2 apfelwein batches have been absolutely fine. Temperature control is not really an issue with them.
 
MrMcPeach said:
The more I think about this, it must be something along the lines of a stuck fermentation. This might explain why the last 2 apfelwein batches have been absolutely fine. Temperature control is not really an issue with them.
Click to expand...

That was the first thing I thought of when I read the original post, that they may be overcarbing because fermentation wasnt complete when you bottled. You mentioned 2 weeks primary, and 2 weeks in secondary? Why not just leave in primary for 4 weeks and then bottle?
 
mychalg9 said:
That was the first thing I thought of when I read the original post, that they may be overcarbing because fermentation wasnt complete when you bottled. You mentioned 2 weeks primary, and 2 weeks in secondary? Why not just leave in primary for 4 weeks and then bottle?
Click to expand...


This sounds like a good idea. I will do this next time. The guy I brew with tends to leave his beers in primary for longer just because he is busier than me and forgets about them. He uses all my equipment and has no issues with overcarb.

Will definitely try a longer primary next time.

Thanks for all the input here guys. It gave me enough info that I now at least have some more things to try. Awesome.
 
MrMcPeach said:
I soaked it in bleach but did not pull it apart.
Click to expand...

There's your issue!! I had the EXACT same problem, and it turned out I wasn't disassembling my bottling wand. In my defense, I didn't know I COULD pull it apart to clean it.

My strong money is on this being the issue.
 
Final question (I think). I have some montrachet wine yeast in my fridge. Could I toss that in to my current batch just to make sure it fully ferments?

I have ordered a new hydrometer but won't have it for a while.
 
muthafuggle said:
There's your issue!! I had the EXACT same problem, and it turned out I wasn't disassembling my bottling wand. In my defense, I didn't know I COULD pull it apart to clean it.

My strong money is on this being the issue.
Click to expand...

The thing is, my buddy who is making beer that is fine is using the same wand.
 
MrMcPeach said:
Final question (I think). I have some montrachet wine yeast in my fridge. Could I toss that in to my current batch just to make sure it fully ferments?

I have ordered a new hydrometer but won't have it for a while.
Click to expand...

I would put that towards your next batch of apfelwine.

I'm a little late to the party in this thread, and don't have a ton of experience, but I'm going to throw something out there. Wipe your memory clean and brew your next batch as if it was your first. Remember how anal you were? How you were so afraid of screwing up that you over sanitized, over analyzed, and over prepared? I sure do. For me it wasn't that long ago. I would revert back to that absolutely ensuring that EVERYTHING is clean and sanitized (spoon, countertops, scales, tubing, canes, EVERYTHING).

However, if you are confident that your cleaning and sanitizing is not the issue, then invite yourself to your buddies next brew day (it is your stuff afterall). Observe what he does differently than you. Take notes if you need to. Notice anything that he does differently. Because there's something going differently if he is coming up with good beer out of the same stuff that is producing bad beer for you. I know we all do different methods/techniques, and when I've helped with other people's brew days, I've not only learned things I didn't know, but come away with better processes that I will later adapt to work for me.

I hate to sound like the Debbie Downer on the thread, but if all the equipment is being used by 2 people, and one is producing good finished product, and the other is producing bad batches, I'd likely say it's a brewer problem. And I mean that with the absolute upmost respect. Go sit in on his brew day, and see where the disconnect is.

Best of luck man. I know bad batches are hard to swallow. But don't give up.
 
I'd also throw this out there. Each of you get the exact same kit, and brew them up and drink them side by side. Since it's the same equipment, the one that is brewed first will have aged longer, but in this experiment, it won't matter.

Brew it the exact same. Let it sit in primary the exact same amount of time, ferment at same temperature. See if there's still an issue.
 
motleybrews said:
I'd also throw this out there. Each of you get the exact same kit, and brew them up and drink them side by side. Since it's the same equipment, the one that is brewed first will have aged longer, but in this experiment, it won't matter.

Brew it the exact same. Let it sit in primary the exact same amount of time, ferment at same temperature. See if there's still an issue.
Click to expand...

After the first batch is conditioned, each sit down with a glass and critique and take notes. What you liked, didn't like, carbonation level, mouthfeel, any off flavors, types of off flavors, etc. After the other batch has conditioned for the same amount of time, repeat. Take the same notes, and compare the 2. May sound like a pain in the butt, but that way there's less variables. There will still be some, but not near as many, and if your batch is bad, it may help eliminate some possibilities and open the door for new possibilities you haven't considered yet (different water supply, etc)
 
AZ_IPA said:
how are you measuring beer volume and priming sugar?
Click to expand...

Well I shoot for a 5 gallon batch each time. Sometimes end up with a 5.25-5.5 or so. I usually carb with 2-3oz of sugar depending on style. I have found 3oz or a llittle more to be more than enough for everything I've made so far.

Made a belgian with 5oz sugar when I first started and it was a bit fizzy imo.
 
motleybrews said:
I would put that towards your next batch of apfelwine.

I'm a little late to the party in this thread, and don't have a ton of experience, but I'm going to throw something out there. Wipe your memory clean and brew your next batch as if it was your first. Remember how anal you were? How you were so afraid of screwing up that you over sanitized, over analyzed, and over prepared? I sure do. For me it wasn't that long ago. I would revert back to that absolutely ensuring that EVERYTHING is clean and sanitized (spoon, countertops, scales, tubing, canes, EVERYTHING).

However, if you are confident that your cleaning and sanitizing is not the issue, then invite yourself to your buddies next brew day (it is your stuff afterall). Observe what he does differently than you. Take notes if you need to. Notice anything that he does differently. Because there's something going differently if he is coming up with good beer out of the same stuff that is producing bad beer for you. I know we all do different methods/techniques, and when I've helped with other people's brew days, I've not only learned things I didn't know, but come away with better processes that I will later adapt to work for me.

I hate to sound like the Debbie Downer on the thread, but if all the equipment is being used by 2 people, and one is producing good finished product, and the other is producing bad batches, I'd likely say it's a brewer problem. And I mean that with the absolute upmost respect. Go sit in on his brew day, and see where the disconnect is.

Best of luck man. I know bad batches are hard to swallow. But don't give up.
Click to expand...

We normally brew together and he does things the same way I do. We have learned everything together and have been at this from the first batch as a pair. In looking back I realize he has actually made some stuff that turned out to be crap too and inbetween we've had the odd good batch.

My plan is to get a new hydrometer and start measuring stuff to make sure fermentation is done. Stuck fermentations seem to me to be the option that makes most sense here.

Could it be a problem to pitch yeast into wort which is still at about 80F before adding the carboy to a 68-70 degree swamp cooler? That is what I generally do as it takes forever to cool my wort much below that. Could this be shocking the yeast and causing issues with fermentation?
 
MrMcPeach said:
Not sure of the difference. I weight 3oz out on a kitchen scale.
Click to expand...

That's the correct way to do it.

I think it must be stuck fermentation issues. How well are you aerating before pitching/what's your aeration method? If you're not getting enough O2 in the wort, your yeast could be quittin before their job is done. It could be that when you're bottling, the change in environment (amount of sugar, temperature, slight oxygenation) is kickin those little suckers back into action, leading to all the sugar that still remains getting fermented.

Don't try any more batches until you get your hydrometer. Then, make a batch the same way you did whenever you had these problems, and take a reading after 2 weeks in primary and 2 weeks in secondary. My money is that it'll be higher than you'd think.


EDIT: Also, is your buddy using the exact same equipment? I mean, EXACT same. Same spoon to stir, same hosing, and same water/ingredients? Is there any single, individual piece, no matter how insignificant it might seem, that he uses that you don't? If so, replace that piece ASAP. If not, if it's truly exactly the same, then you know it's something you're doing differently. Have him brew a batch, and take DETAILED notes of his process. See if anything that he does jumps out as being completely different than what you do.
 
When I made my first batch I rehydrated my yeast in wort and pitched it at about 80 degrees and even though I fermented at 65, I got a stuck fermentation at .040 on a beer that had an OG of .048. I was kind of at a loss so I rehydrated some Champagne Yeast (it was all I had) in water (according to the directions. Go figure) and re-pitched. It kicked off after about a day and fermented down to .010. My beer ended up dryer than planned, but it turned out very drinkable.

Yes, I learned some valuable lessons...
 

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