Had to dump last 6 batches - Need help finding culprit!

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Ranger9913

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As I stated in the subject, I've had to dump the last 6 batches due to off flavors or infections. Now, they're not horrible brews but they are not up to my standards and are certainly far below what I have brewed in the past. That being said I have an semi-automated electric HERMS systems. I hit my mash temps every time and always get 75% efficiency or better. I have a controlled fermentation chamber and always ferment at 68 degrees. I only ferment in a stainless conical or glass carboy. I use a pump and CFC to chill and transfer wort to fermenter. I use PBW to clean and Starsan to sanitize.
I use S-05 and 1056 with proper starters and usually achieve 70-75% attenuation.

Now of the last 6 batches 4 have tasted very promising in the secondary or while being transferred into the kegs. 2 batches have had the off flavor before kegging. In all 6 cases the off flavor gets worse with time and eventually becomes piss water in 4-6 weeks. None of the 6 batches have had any visible signs of infections. Also, I've noticed the body and hop presence has been severely lacking in the past brews as well as head retention.

Description of off-flavor - metallic flavor in finish, slightly cidery, stale, sticking your tongue to a 9v.

Hop flavor/aroma quickly dissipates

Things I've checked - No beer in regulator or gas side of things
pH of StarSan is 3

What I have done this weekend - Cleaned every hose, utensil, kettle, copper piece ect with a high PBW concentration. Took pump head apart and valves and cleaned and soaked. Recirculated 120 degree PBW solution through CFC for an hour in each direction and at variable flow rates. Did the exact same thing with StarSan after rinsing everything with warm water. Took apart all keg fittings and again cleaned and sanitized.

I will be brewing again this coming week to see if I've corrected my cleaning/sanitation problem. Does anyone have any other advise?

Thanks
 
Difficult to say without tasting the beer, but the metallic off flavor could be from your brewing water (possibly high iron contrent). Cidery is a little tougher, but coupled with stale it could be an oxidation problem. The last could be astringency I suppose. Hop flavors and aroma fading could be a problem with not chilling fast enough. Hops tend to fade some no matter what. Has anyone other than you tasted these beers? Might get an outside opinion before doing anything exttreme. I would do what you are planning regading cleaning. Boil everything you can in addition to cleaning the equipment.
 
Has your water source changed in the last 6 brews? It actually sounds more like an infection process, but I always wonder about water if the process is sound.
 
Forgot to add the I filter my water and perform slight modifications to my water. I also have a pH meter and I'm always in thr 5.2-5.6 range. I've had about 5 people taste them and they all agree there is something "going on" but no one can pin point it. I'm wondering if there are possible infections that can exist they won't show visible signs?
 
Forgot to add the I filter my water and perform slight modifications to my water. I also have a pH meter and I'm always in thr 5.2-5.6 range. I've had about 5 people taste them and they all agree there is something "going on" but no one can pin point it. I'm wondering if there are possible infections that can exist they won't show visible signs?

Has it been getting progressivly worse over the last 6 brews? When was the last time you changed your filter?
 
It seems each beer starts out the same and gets progressively worse. Filter is new and shouldn't matter since it's pre boil. The only things I use post boil are the CFC and pump.

It did have some grain specs and crud built up in my pump head.
 
The head retention and hop issues are on the hot side of the production cycle, head retention is most likely from low mash temperatures caused by a mis-calibrated controller and temps in the 145 -150 range. The hop aroma problem is more likely related to fast fermentation losses.
The cold side is where you are having the most significant problems. Any and all tube fittings, threads, ball valves, can and will trap material that will only surface sanitize and flake off later to cause grief, I have had the same problem before with CFC tube fittings. Aeration of the cold wort with unfiltered ambient air invites all manner of wild yeasts, most commonly Brett, and to a lesser degree bacteria, to mix in and ruin things specially when the weather has warmed up. I would suggest taking all the cold side connections, hoses, valves apart, then clean and sanitize them before reassembling, and leave them capped after cleaning and sanitizing for system layup.
 
Well, I'm using a BCS-460 system and a Blichmann dial thermometer in my MLT. I've also checked and calibrated with ice water and have used other thermometers and I'm within a +- 3 degree difference. I usually mash at 154 so even being a little low shouldn't be to big of problem. However, after switching to S-04/S-05 I have had extremely fast fermentation. My last IPA went from 1.057 to 1.02 within in 48hrs.

This weekend I did as you mentioned and took EVERYTHING apart and cleaned and sanitized. It took me over 6 hrs hours but I'm hoping it's worth it.
 
Forgot to add the I filter my water and perform slight modifications to my water. I also have a pH meter and I'm always in thr 5.2-5.6 range. I've had about 5 people taste them and they all agree there is something "going on" but no one can pin point it. I'm wondering if there are possible infections that can exist they won't show visible signs?

I would suggest trying a batch with spring water or some other water source, to make sure the water isn't the problem. Even though I have been filtering, I still had some problems with chlorophenols. The filter may not be removing enough of the unwanted stuff.
 
While in the CFC does the wort contact copper? Is it possible there is copper corrossion (i.e. that green crap that builds up on your pretty copper goodness) on the inside of the CFC that you just can't get at?

I'm really interested to see how this all works out for you. I wish you nothing but the best!
 
It's possible but I can't really see the inside very well. Was thinking about using my old IC for a batch. I guess it's all about eliminating variables until I find the culprit.
 
If you are fermenting to terminal gravity in 48 hours, the internal fermenter temps are way higher than you think, probably +10 to +15 degrees at high kraeusin, and if there was any hop aroma, it blew out the air lock. Personal experience with ambient cooled 20 gallon conicals lead to installation of internal SS cooling coils to control ferment temperatures, ambient cooling is insufficient with fast ferments and larger volumes. With that fast a ferment you had better bump the mash temp up 2 - 4 degrees to compensate and add 1 Lb wheat malt to the grain bill for the head retention proteins that brings with it. That much yeast growth and activity will have chewed up what proteins there were for head retention, leaving a light bodied beer behind.
 
I have a 6" RTD probe in my conical which controls my heat/AC. Do you think I'm still have those high temp swings?
 
Try taking ball valve a part. You might be surprised what you find in there. I was when I did mine last week. Also might replace raking cane go with SST one you can always bake it in oven to make sure you kill any bugs. Replace all hoses, clean all kegs parts and fittings.
 
Try taking ball valve a part. You might be surprised what you find in there. I was when I did mine last week. Also might replace raking cane go with SST one you can always bake it in oven to make sure you kill any bugs. Replace all hoses, clean all kegs parts and fittings.

Did that, everything was brush cleaned and PBW soaked and then put back together for a 2hr recirc.

Just had a pint of yet another brew about to be dumped. I noticed it's leaving a slippery, butter/oily residue in my mouth after each swig if that helps identify anything. Also, even though I keg I'm losing my foam head within 5 mins.
 
My guess would be contamination in the CFC. I had a similar problem for about the same number of batches. I used the copper coil as an IC and the problem went away.

Good luck finding the issue. I feel your pain.


All you can do is go step by step, changing one or two variables each batch until you find the culprit.
 
I'm also going to rebrew a batch I dumped on another persons HERMS system and if it turns out good then I know it's not my recipe it's a component of my brewery.
 
Lot of good troubleshooting recommendations here. A buttery taste is usually diacetyl, lots of causes for that - infection, underpitching, overoxygenation, pitched too hot. Not saying that's what the off taste is from, just another possibility.

When you use the CFC, do you recirculate boiling wort through it for any amount of time before starting to cool it? I do that for 15 minutes before kicking on the cooling water to sanitize the CFC each time.
 
You could try filtering it with a .45 micron filter prior to kegging. This is small enough to be sterile and filter out any bacteria that may be transferring and ruining your beer once it's kegged. This could help you determine if the problem is somehow in your kegs or in transfer equiptment.

Just an idea. Good luck.
 
Interesting point on the filter, Dg.

Curious how big the filter would need to be to get a decent flow through it? Also, wondering if any desirable components would be filtered out as well...
 
Are you milling grain in the same place you are filling the fermenter?

Also it is odd for several issues to crop up all at once, or is it that you are more critical now that you are looking closely at everything?

I'd change up on sanitizers to help combat anything that has found a way to defeat StarSan. A bleaching job and good rinse is a cheap insurance method. Then go back to your normal routine of StarSan.

Also skip the secondary from your brewing process. Usually not needed and it just introduces an additional point of infection potential.

Any of this occur along with a change in the CO2 tank? Bad gas, dirty rusty tank? I run mine with a sanitary filter on the gas line just in case - $5 insurance policy.
 
Man Jason that sucks, sorry to hear you're still having trouble. I like the idea of using an IC on you're next batch, my cfc always worries me, you never know what's in there. I always cap the ends after the final rinse. Do you ever pull samples halfway through fermentation and check the actual temp? After that long recirc through the chiller did any gunk come out?

_
 
Yes, I do mill my grain in my shed where my brewery is. However, I have a fermentation chamber that is closed before milling and stays closed for the next 4hrs at least.

I do recirculate the boiling wort for at least 15mins through the CFC.

Good point about the the filter. Maybe I can do a split batch and filter half to see what changes in flavors might occur.


I have changed Co2 on the last two batches with same results. I also bottled an IPA a few months ago that had a faint similar set of off-flavors.

When doing my PBW recirc I did notice gobs of dark stuff flowing through my silicone hoses after about 20mins. After 2hrs of recirculating I noticed a good size patch of gunk in the floating in the tank that looked like I dumped a can of cinnamon in it. So, obviously my cleaning practices have not been what they should have been. After listening to the Brewing Networks two segments with the guy from 5-Star Chem I realized I have not being using a proper ratio of PBW/water. I think I was told a long time ago from some experiencds homebrewers that 1oz per 5 gallons is good. After reading the container it actually calls for 1-2oz per gallon for brewing kettles, and .75oz per gallon for tanks and fermenters.

Once I did that this weekend with a 2.5oz/gallon ratio my kettles cleaned up like they've never been used to brew with.

Paul - Thanks for the PBW/StarSan split, I'm going to need it.
 
Sometimes I do. If I'm going from my glass carboy to the keg I do. If I'm using my conical I transfer right to the keg from there. My last brew in the conical had the common off-flavor still in the conical so that rules out the auto-siphon I think.
 
It sounds like you may have solved your problem with the thorough cleaning of the cfc. I always use at least one ounce per gallon of pbw for my bk and cfc cleaning. It's expensive, but it works well.

_
 
I was just doing some searching for testing labs. I was thinking of maybe trying to have some samples analyzed for bacteria. Does anyone have any experience in this area in regards to cost or effectiveness?
 
It would be more likely this is a wild yeast - fungus problem rather than a bacteria if the buttery smell of diacetyl and sourness do not develop.
Typical CIP systems use 5% sodium hydroxide solution followed by phosphoric acid rinse to remove caustic residue film from piping.
 
One more thing to consider. A friend of mine warned that the acidity of StarSan will attack the soft copper. Intellictually I agreed but in practice I never really cared. Until I saw the effects first hand. I often keep a kettle full of recently used starSans in one of my kettles until the next time I brew. Once I forgot to take the little copper do-dad that I built to get the last bit of wort from below the valve and left it in the kettle for a full week (or so). When I went to brew again, I discovered that it was severely pitted and corroded looking.

If you're using StarSans to sanitize your CFC you might be beating up the internal copper... It could even be a little leaky where it's burnt through from the inner coil to the outer! Ever since I discovered the beating that copper took, I have limited my sanitize recirc of my CFC to 5 minutes or less. Mr. Talley says that you only need 30 sec contact time...
 
...I think I was told a long time ago from some experiencds homebrewers that 1oz per 5 gallons is good. After reading the container it actually calls for 1-2oz per gallon for brewing kettles, and .75oz per gallon for tanks and fermenters.

Once I did that this weekend with a 2.5oz/gallon ratio my kettles cleaned up like they've never been used to brew with.

Paul - Thanks for the PBW/StarSan split, I'm going to need it.

Thats the problem with having so many different chemicals with different dilutions, it's easy to mix things up. The 1oz per 5 gallons is correct for Starsan. Hopefully that good clean will solve your problem ;)
 
Interesting point on the filter, Dg.

Curious how big the filter would need to be to get a decent flow through it? Also, wondering if any desirable components would be filtered out as well...

I've only used mine once. Flow wasn't an issue. I counterpressure transferred it from a sanke I'd been fermenting in, so the beer was already carbed.

I think .45 micron absolute is pretty fine. I have to admit that the flavor of the beer seemed to change after filtering it. Not much, but there was a difference. It could just be the total lack of yeast in it as a filter this fine filters 100% of yeast out.

Beer still tastes wonderful, so it's hard to say. That being said, I am going to try going with a 1 micron filter next time.

Crash cool first if you're interested in trying it.
 
In case anyone is interested I now have 10 gallons of an awesome IPA on tap that does not appear to be infected in any way. I did a batch a month ago and borrowed an immersion chiller instead of using my CFC. So it looks like the culprit was the CFC or the pump. I did a batch last week with my CFC and pump but only after an extensive cleaning and sanitizing so we'll see if I got it all.
 
Good deal Ranger. I really hope it turns out good for you. I still use a rib cage IC for thaty very reason. I have been going back and forth about recirculating while I have my IC in and im still a little hesitant on doing it for sanitation reasons.

Shoot I run boiling water for 10 minutes and then iodophor rinse for another 10 in my RIMS tube and I still see crap the next brew session come through.
 
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