Electrical Questions

I've searched but could not find everything I needed. I thought why not start a thread, Start to finish on obtaining an electric HLT.

When I meant Start to Finish I mean Installing the breaker to heating water.

Beginning Assumption = I need a 220V breaker (2 free slots in breaker box) and probably 30 amp. My house has 100 AMP service.

Is it Possible?= Running a 110V Heating element for HLT, therefore not having to add a breaker. I'll be doing the wort boil with propane still, unless 220 breaker is the only way to go then I suppose I'll eventually be boiling Electric as well. I have electricla knowledge to the point of knowing how to be safe with it and making it work following a schematic, but not to the point of designing circuits and doing it by code.

I've seen 110V 3500W Elements and 220V 4500W Elements.
Can you run 1 110V 3500W element for an HLT? I don't want to be waiting for ever. I'd rather do it all the way with 220V if it is 100% worth it.

Now the assembling of the keggle isn't what I'm here for. There are enough postings on that. Just the specifics for 220V Breaker, Elements, GFCI Box and Circuit for everything together.

To put it into perspective, Beertoolspro tells me that my large HLT burner runs at about 2400 watts based on calibration data I fed in. I think 3500 would be fine but I'm only aware of 2000w x 120v elements which would run just under 17 amps. You'd need a new breaker anyway for at least a dedicated 20 amp circuit (not quite code though because you're not supposed to run over 80% of the rated load).

This might help... http://www.suebob.com/brew/elementcalc.xls

But how much longer would this take and can the 3500's just run off a standard household outlet? I'd like to heat a full day's water supply at once, then adjust temp as needed.

Let's look at the two extremes. If you want to run new wiring, you can put in a 50 amp 240 V two phase GFCI and have lots of power for heating or boiling - 50 X 240 X 80% = 9600 Watts. If you want to use an existing 15 amp 120 V circuit you are limited to a heating element that is rated at 80% of the wattage of the circuit -120V X 15A X 80% = 1440 Watts.

So, the options are unlimited, but you have to figure out what you want to do. This board and the green board has a lot of electric brewers who are willing and able to help out newcomers to electric brewing, do some searches there, and here.

If you are at all unsure of what to do, hire an electrician to do the work or at minimum advise you. 240 V and water and concrete floors don't mix well without lots of safeguards, like CFCI circuit breakers, and redundant grounds.

No you can't run a 3500 watt element off a standard 120 V circuit, you'd need a 35 amp circuit for that. Standard circuits are either 15 or 20 amps.

AiredAle said:

No you can't run a 3500 watt element off a standard 120 V circuit, you'd need a 35 amp circuit for that. Standard circuits are either 15 or 20 amps.

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Sure you can. Remember resistance is constant. (240V^2)/3500W=16.45ohms. so 120V/16.45=7.30A.

In fact I run a 4500W @ 240V on 120V no problems for my mash tun heater. I wanted a super low wattage per sq inch ratio. For a boil kettle you really need 240v though.

As for your breakers, be sure to run GFCI breakers. I am putting a small sub panel off of my water heater. The best thing would be to get a box designed for a hot tub. Usually they will have a 50A breaker which will exceed the breaker in your main panel. Which if you ask me is okay because the breaker in the main panel should trip, but what you really want it for is the GFCI feature.

Electric dryers and Ranges are also good places to pick up 240v

If your panel is full remove two regular width size breakers and replace with four wafer breakers replacing the two 15 or 20 amp to the same amperage that you replaced then add your two pole 50. They are half as wide as a regular breaker, make sure you pick up both legs off the panel buss for your 240 volt and the breakers are pinned or bridged to trip together. Reconnect the other devices back to the other two wafer breakers. Even with only a 100 amp service you can run your brewing off a 50 amp breaker allowing for 9.6KW power at 80% of breaker rating per NEC code. With this setup tap off each leg with a 120 volt gfi with a breaker rated to the wire gauge for the pumps and controller before the 50 amp rated gfi for the heating elements. Just not have the wife use the dryer or electric range while your brewing, better yet get her out of the house shopping. Now the SOO cord will cost ya besides the male and female 50 amp twistloc plug, cap and gfi.
If the panel has room installing a 50 amp GFI breaker will cause the GFI to trip unless the PID, pumps and control lights are wired for 240 volt, remember balanced load between legs.
This will allow for two 4.5KW or one larger and smaller for still 4.5KW element total plus 600 watts for the pumps, controller and panel lights, radio.
Good point mentioned above about the use of super low wattage per/sq inch heating elements.
Even with this I will not allow my elements to be in any contact with any bier liquids from start to finish of the brew session.
Fun never comes cheap, rewards priceless.

Bobby_M said:

To put it into perspective, Beertoolspro tells me that my large HLT burner runs at about 2400 watts based on calibration data I fed in. I think 3500 would be fine but I'm only aware of 2000w x 120v elements which would run just under 19amps. You'd need a new breaker anyway for at least a dedicated 20 amp circuit (not quite code though).

This might help... http://www.suebob.com/brew/elementcalc.xls

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Bobby; 2KW x 120 is 16.666 amps not your "just under 19 amps".
Puts ya over the breakers 80% NEC rating to 83.33% and this without allowing for a pump, PID, control panel lighting and a mash stir motor if added.
Why not go to a 30 amp breaker and feed with number 10 gauge wire allowing for 24 amps at 80% breaker rating this allowing 7.34 amps for pump, PID and control panel lighting besides code legal. Throw in a GFI also.

Yeah, I meant to type just under 17amps and I did mention a 20 amp circuit wouldn't quite be to code. I have a 100amp service as well and that's why I haven't gone to electrical heating on my rig. After an upgrade, I will likely cut over.

As much as I hate to admit it I think this is over my head. I'm probably going to have an electrician come out and take a look. What kinda pricing am I looking at to switch over my house to a 200AMP Service?

To upgrade your service, you are also bringing in your power co., upgrading your panel, etc.
I don't know what code is where you live, but I am assuming that your house is run with Romex, which makes adding more circuits more difficult. Also, GFI breakers are a HELL of a lot more expensive than GFI receptacles, and no more effective. Also, IF you pop the GFI, with a breaker, you are talking about having to go back to the panel to re-set it, as opposed to just re-setting the receptacle.
As to solving your problem, without knowing your lay out, etc, it's hard to come up with a definitive answer. Your best bet is probably to bring in a pro, and get their input.

IrregularPulse said:

What kinda pricing am I looking at to switch over my house to a 200AMP Service?

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Over a thousand dollars. Maybe closer to two grand depending where you live. That's an expensive HLT. Your 100 amp service is fine. Just put in a subpanel if it is full, or make room with a couple of tandem breakers.

I just upgraded from 100amp to 200AMP and it was $1800. That was before 2008 NEC though, now the cost would probably be $600 or so higher as 2008 NEC calls for using Arc Fault breakers everywhere.

Because the load for your setup is temorpary, 100AMP will be fine. Do you have extra breaker spaces?

Wow I'm living in the wrong part of the country. Here in North Carolina I usually do a service upgrade from 100 to 200 amps for around 800 dollars or so, depending on the exact circumstances.

What type of heating do you have? If you have gas appliances and heat then 100 amps would probably be just fine. If you have central air or mostly electric appliances then you should upgrade to a 200 amp service.

We have central air, but gas appliances. I'll look into just adding another box if I don't have room. I had no idea it would be anywhere CLOSE to that expensive to upgrade!!

Virtuous said:

In fact I run a 4500W @ 240V on 120V no problems for my mash tun heater. I wanted a super low wattage per sq inch ratio. For a boil kettle you really need 240v though.

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OK so I'm also toying with the idea of going electric for HLT only, not for BK. I've wondered about how to do this, with using a 240v element over 120v. Do you have any parts lists or website reference or anything for how to do the mixed-voltage build-up? Everything I've been reading is strictly "YOU MUCH USE 240V RAAAARRRR!" and i'd love a hint on how to stay on 120v.

My hours is older, 100amp service, I thought about bugging an electrician in the local brew club to take a look to see how much it'd cost if we can move a 240v outlet from my living room (for AC units) to the porch (where I brew) but kind of want to stay with 120v because 240v has always kinda scared me. (Electric stove, gas heater, busted central A/C, 2 window units instead, both larger 120v units.)

I just did the whole setup today and brewed with it to. 1 3800watt 240v element for hlt and boiling purposes. I'll be expanding a bit on what I did today, but I had my dad here to help me who is an electrician of ~30 years, and got me the parts for nothing.

tomorrow, I'll post the whole setup with pictures and math if you;d like, but for now...

Chriso said:

OK so I'm also toying with the idea of going electric for HLT only, not for BK.

I thought about bugging an electrician in the local brew club to take a look to see how much it'd cost if we can move a 240v outlet from my living room

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When I shared a RIMS system with my brew buddies it used a 240 V heating element. We just used a long cable and plugged it into the dryer outlet whenever we brewed. Why not get a long cable and use the outlet in your living room.

Cheers,
Paul

Didn't know you could buy 240v power cables that long... are they mega-pricey? might be worth it for me to mash indoors........ where the A/C is! (this summer's been kicking my a$$, i'm not a hot weather guy) i could instead spend the extension cable $$ on the element/fittings instead.... swmbo's gonna hate me for this one...

IrregularPulse said:

We have central air, but gas appliances. I'll look into just adding another box if I don't have room. I had no idea it would be anywhere CLOSE to that expensive to upgrade!!

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It must get rather warm in your area. I had a high of 71 today with nights down into the high 50's with the daily cool breeze off the San Francisco bay. Alameda is an island in the east side of the bay. Great for sailing.

My AC system is covering the cold air return and removing the blower panel cover down in the basement then adding the panel with a filter window. Feels almost like AC without the high AC electric bill, i'll save that extra energy for the welders and brewing elements. Save energy my azz, did it years ago with electricty, water and gas then they would bill me at a higher rate if I went over my normal useage which was at the bare minimum already.

This countries electrical energy supply is about as useful as cleaning up after an elephant with only one square of TP. Bring on the brown and blackouts. Sorry got off topic here.
Service change prices vary depending on your area, S.F. bay area being mostly union electricians the shops are not cheap, non union is about as high. High wireman wages, heck the cost of living in this area is high.
Getting a larger panel is one thing but make sure it comes loaded with the main breaker, they like to screw you on that one then add the others as needed. Cheaper to buy at Home Depot than the electrical supply house even under my companies license when I was working. Now disabled out of the trade. Have you priced copper wire lately? Take your meds first before looking.

Chriso said:

Didn't know you could buy 240v power cables that long... are they mega-pricey? might be worth it for me to mash indoors........ where the A/C is! (this summer's been kicking my a$$, i'm not a hot weather guy) i could instead spend the extension cable $$ on the element/fittings instead.... swmbo's gonna hate me for this one...

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Sure, you can buy any length cable you want at Home Depot. Gauge will depend on the length you need. (You would be buying cable in effect if you had the outlet moved.) If you mash indoors the place will heat up and you'll wish you could turn on the AC.

Cheers,
Paul

Chriso said:

Didn't know you could buy 240v power cables that long... are they mega-pricey? might be worth it for me to mash indoors........ where the A/C is! (this summer's been kicking my a$$, i'm not a hot weather guy) i could instead spend the extension cable $$ on the element/fittings instead.... swmbo's gonna hate me for this one...

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We ordered 1,000" reels of 4 gauge for many 3,900' tunnel runs of 4 conductor SOO cord #10, 8, 6, 4 and 2 gauge. It is not cheap!
I pulled miles out as temp feeder with most sent to the scrap yard, we were under a time limit withCalTrans so removing with a tractor. Good thing I collected a few hundred clean feet of each gauge being a pack rat I am. Now have feeders for the welders and future brewery. Heck the shop told me to take it home on company time with their flat bed. We worked together great for over 3 1/2 years on this one job.

My dad spent a winter in Lincoln Nebraska doing motor replacements "cold weather training" Army Air Corps during WWII, P51 and P38 coldest place on earth he said and he came from Germany. Whats your weather temp swing difference, 140*F or more?

Chriso said:

OK so I'm also toying with the idea of going electric for HLT only, not for BK. I've wondered about how to do this, with using a 240v element over 120v. Do you have any parts lists or website reference or anything for how to do the mixed-voltage build-up? Everything I've been reading is strictly "YOU MUCH USE 240V RAAAARRRR!" and i'd love a hint on how to stay on 120v.

My hours is older, 100amp service, I thought about bugging an electrician in the local brew club to take a look to see how much it'd cost if we can move a 240v outlet from my living room (for AC units) to the porch (where I brew) but kind of want to stay with 120v because 240v has always kinda scared me. (Electric stove, gas heater, busted central A/C, 2 window units instead, both larger 120v units.)

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You could stay 120V for a five gallon RIMS mashing and HLT set up. I have a thread on a successful rig. I designed it for travel so i could go to brewtogethers at other homes. This ment that I had to work with 120V and 20 amp circuits. For speed though I still do the initial HLT heat up in my boil kettle over a propane burner. If I am brewing at home then I just fill the hlt with water and give it an hour. It is on a timer now so I just add water before I go to work and then set the timer for an hour before I expect to be home. Then as soon as you are dowed in you can turn off the HLT and turn on the RIMS. After you get to mash out you turn off the RIMS heater and turn on the HLT so you can raise the water to the last few degrees for sparge. It is quick, easy, and a lot of fun. S.

BrewBeemer said:

My dad spent a winter in Lincoln Nebraska doing motor replacements "cold weather training" Army Air Corps during WWII, coldest place on earth and he came from Germany. Whats your weather swing 140*F?

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Say, ya know the coldest place in the continental US is still Embarrass Minnesota. That small town records temps as low as -75F from year to year and averages between -50F and -60F during the Jan. and Feb. months in most years. It then get up to 90+ with high humidity in the summer. Nice place eh. Welcome to Minnesota. The rest of the state experiences -20's and -30's, in the winter, still F***ing cold. San Fran is a paradise and Nebraska isn't all bad either, just windy, just like western Minnesota. I will brew beer in both places some day. It will be an adventure.

What's the difference, under the right conditions 120 can make ya just as dead as 240 volts. Hell only 70 Ma can kill ya under the right conditions. There are a lot of people walking around with bad tickers not knowing it or on the edge of a massive heart attack at any given moment.
277 volts has been one of my worse shocks and this hand to hand across the chest for a few seconds across the ticker. A plumber bent a panel lock open for lighting almost got a free ride by the coroner when I recovered.
Understand, learn and respect electricity, some people are fearful of the word electricity alone.

nies; now I have that movie Fargo in my head. ya ya.
You must have your water service deep underground or heat traced. Need a frig with a lamp to keep food from freezing.
Yeah we have color (Rainbow) near by in S.F. Alameda is totally different, an old town with Queen Ann's, Victorian's, Spanish, English, Craftsman homes dating back to the 1880's. Heck my rental house is 1905. Man I stole this thread i'll shut up.

'Round here, it doesn't get nearly as cold as it used to.... stays in the +20-30*F range most the winter, with -5*-+5*F for a "real" cold snap. Summers are still 95-105*F when it's hot... the big change is the humidity tho, I don't remember it being nearly as muggy when I was a kid... these days.... yeesh, from what I've heard to compare with, it's almost as bad as the Deep South humidity.

Hmmmm. I can't decide if I want to use a cooler, or a bucket, or a S/S pot or whatnot for my HLT.... I should pick that before I pick the element out.... I'm excited for this! I want to build one for the same convenience reason with the outlet timer and all that jazz..

Chriso said:

'Round here, it doesn't get nearly as cold as it used to.... stays in the +20-30*F range most the winter, with -5*-+5*F for a "real" cold snap. Summers are still 95-105*F when it's hot... the big change is the humidity tho, I don't remember it being nearly as muggy when I was a kid... these days.... yeesh, from what I've heard to compare with, it's almost as bad as the Deep South humidity.

Hmmmm. I can't decide if I want to use a cooler, or a bucket, or a S/S pot or whatnot for my HLT.... I should pick that before I pick the element out.... I'm excited for this! I want to build one for the same convenience reason with the outlet timer and all that jazz..

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Your on! After you decide what you are going to have for a HLT, let me know And I will send you a parts list for the rig that I have. For the HLT I will recommend that you go with Al, because it is cheap. You only have to boil water in it once and the oxide layer is built. This means it will turn grey on the inside. You can then order couplings from Grainger or where ever and have them welded in. You will only need two, or three if you want to build a sight glass. One 1" coupling for the element, one 1/2" for the spigot or drain, and a 1/4" or 1/8" coupling for the sight glass. You can do the same thing with stainless, but plastic tends to expand and then leak after the water reaches a certain temperature, don't discount it though, there are plenty of brewers that use only plastic and have no issue. Good luck. S.

Do you recommend avoiding a weldless fitting on Aluminum? I thought welding fittings into aluminum was difficult / hard to find a welder to do. I also ask because I bought Silicone hi-temp O-Rings in bulk... now I have a sack of 100, and I only used 1 on my old ball valve.

Chriso said:

Do you recommend avoiding a weldless fitting on Aluminum? I thought welding fittings into aluminum was difficult / hard to find a welder to do. I also ask because I bought Silicone hi-temp O-Rings in bulk... now I have a sack of 100, and I only used 1 on my old ball valve.

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The high temp O-rings will have no issues with the heat. So I would try it. I have not had good luck on my cooler mash tun with this type of fitting, but I have never have tried on a metal one. I am in the process of building a larger system so I have SS kegs that I have welded fittings into, so I have no experience with the weldless fittings in the metal pots.
You are going to love the control when your system is done. It makes things so easy. I am also building a electric boil kettle that will be just for the house. To much power draw to take to other peoples homes, but cool anyway. S.

For a HLT I would think the most mass in weight would better hold your temps longer and more stable between element reheatings be it only a 7.75 or 15.5 SS keg with thick insulation all around. If it were me I would go for the 15.5 SS keg for the mass alone besides you might step it up to a bigger system later.
It's 54*F heavy overcast (fog) might see Mr. sun by 2-3 PM if lucky.
Three weeks ago we set an all time high of 103.3*F vs 102*F, all time low is 30.6*F. Humidity on average app 72% swings from 43% to 86%.
You want rust sand cast iron and leave it outside overnight raw.

Hmmmmm. I have a Keggle right now, and I dislike its thermal mass because it *takes* so long to heat... but I see what you're saying... with insulation on it... and with an electric element... well that would be downright neat. Plus I could justify buying a 60qt aluminum boil kettle instead. Hmmmmm.

I plan on using a 15.5 G SS keg as well.

The SS keg with insulation does hold temps well. Seabee john and I insulated his and we have been surprised by how well it holds temp.

Bobby_M said:

I'm only aware of 2000w x 120v elements which would run just under 17 amps. You'd need a new breaker anyway for at least a dedicated 20 amp circuit (not quite code though because you're not supposed to run over 80% of the rated load).

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It's more that just code. Breakers have a thermal trigger in them and they will "thermal out" if you run them at high loads for extended periods of time. How extended depends on actual load, breaker heat dissipation, resistive heating at connections, etc. Suffice it to say that I wouldn't plan a long duration activity like brewing around a breaker that's running at 85% of capacity.

As for choosing between 120v/240v, remember that there are only three significant differences between 120V and 240v.

1) Both wires (white and black) are hot.
2) Any given run/cord can deliver 2x as much energy at 240v as it can at 120v.
3) A 240v circuit must occupy two full breaker slots.

#1 & #2 are why most people push 240V over 120v. The exact same wire can be used for both and you get 2x as much power (i.e. heats 2x as fast) with 240v. That also means for a given amp load that you can use a smaller (or longer) extension cord for 240v that you will for 120v.

As for the massive plugs/wires that scare most people away from 220v, that's because here in the USA the only thing that uses 220v is the dryer and/or stove, both of which require 50A service. 220v @ 15A can be delivered over a 14gauge wire (different plugs) and provides 3300watts (peak). If you use a 10 gauge wire, you can deliver a massive 30A for 5200W of continuous power (220v @ 30A @ 80%)

pldoolittle said:

The exact same wire can be used for both

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Although, keep in mind if you are planning a brew rig, you need to include a neutral in order to power anything that uses 120v (controllers, pumps, etc) Don't cheat and just use the ground.

pldoolittle said:

The exact same wire can be used for both

MA_Brewer said:

Although, keep in mind if you are planning a brew rig, you need to include a neutral in order to power anything that uses 120v (controllers, pumps, etc) Don't cheat and just use the ground.

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Very true, but that doesn't change for 220v. With 120v a proper circuit (3 wire) contains hot (black), neutral (white), and ground (green/bare). With 220v a proper circuit contains hot A (black), Hot B (white), and ground (green/bare). I know you can run a 4 wire 220v (2 hot, neutral, grnd) but I've never seen one used in a residential application.

For the non-electricians, I think the point MA_Brewer was trying to make is that GFCI's and other protective apparatus DO NOT WORK if you cheat and miswire the ground. So you can spend $100 on a nice GFCI breaker and still electrocute yourself... And as I'm typing that, I'm thinking to myself that a GFCI 220v circuit needs a neutral, and hence a 4 wire connection.

pldoolittle said:

Very true, but that doesn't change for 220v. With 120v a proper circuit (3 wire) contains hot (black), neutral (white), and ground (green/bare). With 220v a proper circuit contains hot A (black), Hot B (white), and ground (green/bare). I know you can run a 4 wire 220v (2 hot, neutral, grnd) but I've never seen one used in a residential application.

For the non-electricians, I think the point MA_Brewer was trying to make is that GFCI's and other protective apparatus DO NOT WORK if you cheat and miswire the ground. So you can spend $100 on a nice GFCI breaker and still electrocute yourself... And as I'm typing that, I'm thinking to myself that a GFCI 220v circuit needs a neutral, and hence a 4 wire connection.

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So I take it that you are not an electrician. Because if you read that code, you will have realized by now that the electric range recept. and dryer recept.'s in residential wiring are required to be four wire circuits. This is not a new requirement brought on by the new code change, but one that has existed for some time now.
Point number two a GFCI recept. does not require a ground to work properly. In fact by code, if you are replacing recept. that do not have a ground, you are requires to place a GFCI at the begining of the circuit. This is also not a new code change, but one that has been around since 1996 NEC. A GFCI does not require a ground because it is a comparative device. It monitors the hot and neutral. So I will concede one small point and say that in the most technical terms that a neutral is by its nature a ground or as the code defines it a grounded conductor as opposed to a grounding conductor. S.

slnies said:

So I take it that you are not an electrician.

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No. Does that mean I'm not allowed to discuss and share what I know with others? My apologies. I'll shut up now...

{Long reply discussing the pros/cons of such installations deleted to make room for slnies to bless us with his wisdom}

Chriso said:

Didn't know you could buy 240v power cables that long... are they mega-pricey? might be worth it for me to mash indoors........ where the A/C is! (this summer's been kicking my a$$, i'm not a hot weather guy) i could instead spend the extension cable $$ on the element/fittings instead.... swmbo's gonna hate me for this one...

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wire is generally rated for 600V. It's the amps you have to get a thicker wire for. And it was dirt cheap, as in had dad get 3 pulls of #12 off the end of a reel at a job site.


And something else people don't realize, for instance the #14 wire is rated for 15amps, BUT that is over a period of 3 hours. If you run say 4000W at 240V, that's 16.7A, with the boil kettle on for 1 hour, you are fine. But if you doing it, you might as well use a bigger wire, unless of coarse something is already in place that is 14awg.

pldoolittle said:

No. Does that mean I'm not allowed to discuss and share what I know with others? My apologies. I'll shut up now...

{Long reply discussing the pros/cons of such installations deleted to make room for slnies to bless us with his wisdom}

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No, by all means share with us your knowledge. Just make sure you have your facts straight when you talk about something as dangerous as electricity and the laws that are in place to protect us average joe's. I did not intend to be a prick, but then again electricity can kill you through misinformation just as quick as lack of common sense.

Sorry everyone, I will now bow out, and let happy brew rig banter ensue. S.

pldoolittle said:

For the non-electricians, I think the point MA_Brewer was trying to make is that GFCI's and other protective apparatus DO NOT WORK if you cheat and miswire the ground. So you can spend $100 on a nice GFCI breaker and still electrocute yourself... And as I'm typing that, I'm thinking to myself that a GFCI 220v circuit needs a neutral, and hence a 4 wire connection.

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That's a myth. A GFCI doesn't need a ground to work properly. Never has. And a 240V GFCI breaker, while it has a neutral on it, doesn't need the neutral to work properly.