New brewers.Stop trying to doctor your beer !

Who cares if people experiment? You don't have to drink their beer...

m_c_zero said:

Who cares if people experiment? You don't have to drink their beer...

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Because what happens more often then not, is that folks start off "experimenting" end up making crappy beer, and then get out of the hobby. As opposed to those who take some time to learn, make good beer and end up loving the hobby.....

If you want to make progress sometimes you have to experiment and push the boundaries. You can't be afraid to make mistakes, just be ready to learn from them.

I've brewed 4 batches and not one of them did I follow the exact recipe. The first three turned out great and the fourth is bubbling away. Why do people care so much anyways?

I am a noob(5 batches so far, all of them AG) and I always have to experiment.

Not because I liked it at first, but because my LHBS doesn't have much variety of things, like 6 types of yeasts(and its the biggest one in my country lol), not so much types of malt, and a small variety of hops.

The important thing is, I experiment but I don't do radical changes. Normally what I do is read a lot of recipes of the style of beer I want to brew... then I try to understand what variables do what effects and I come up with my "own" recipe using the things I can found in my LHBS.

I believe that in brewing(and in most things in life actually) you have to start simple, master the process and then experiment, if you don't understand the basics you are not experimenting, you are just doing random things to your product.

Revvy said:

Because what happens more often then not, is that folks start off "experimenting" end up making crappy beer, and then get out of the hobby. As opposed to those who take some time to learn, make good beer and end up loving the hobby.....

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So, more lightly-used, cheap brewing gear for the rest of us?

danielbt said:

So, more lightly-used, cheap brewing gear for the rest of us?

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I was going to say something similar in my post. But yeah it happens all the time. Craiglslist is full of that.

huntb said:

I've brewed 4 batches and not one of them did I follow the exact recipe. The first three turned out great and the fourth is bubbling away. Why do people care so much anyways?

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I am guessing they care so much because they have several years of reading these posts from people who don't do their homework and then constantly wonder why it went wrong. I tend to feel that way ab out things the older I get as well. The funny part is I am seriously new to this as well as the forum and I decided to make a kit and did all the homework I possibly could I chose a simple Dunkelweizen from more beer and utilized the web, library, homebrewing friends, and anything else I could get info from. Needless to say I have a fridge of about 50 bottles of the sourest undrinkable crap you will ever taste. I followed the recipe to the "T". I didn't call for help or ask why. I looked at my process and did some homework and found the error in my ways (had to transport wort about 100 yards to fermentation shed and we put the lid on and drove it. Lid was not sterile and I remember seeing where the wort had sloshed against it when I removed it.) Whoops. Life goes on, My second beer was taken from several different recipes based on flavors I wanted in a beer. I even racked on a secondary against all sage advice I read on these and many other forums as well as texts. I am drinking what is now my favorite porter and I am pressing forward to the next beer. Maybe I am the type "B" mentioned earlier, but I think rules were meant to be broken and failure is simply a chance to learn. Revvy... Sometimes a cup of salt tastes great. Just watch that crazy Anne Burrell on the food network. She goes for 2 or 3!:cross:

If nobody ever experimented with beer, there would not be a forum regarding it on the internet, how boring would that be? I get what you're all saying about learning HOW to brew before you go experimenting and I'm all about trying to perfect a style or 50, but how many of those styles came about from experimenting or even mistakes. It is true that you need to document your process in detail in order to repeat it, or change it in some manner, but after that I say, EXPERIMENT AWAY!!

Last time I checked, you learn just as much, if not more, getting things wrong than getting them right.

I'm all for experimentation, BUT your base process needs to be solid before you can get controlled results. I stayed with basics for about first 100 gallons back in 1994. Then I stepped up to honey, then some herbs (coriander a traditional brewing spice), and oak and fruit.
Brewed a house pale 2 weeks apart same base recipe, but switched up yeast... I am certain any difference in flavor/aroma is from yeast not other factors. Everything was IDENTICAL from grain crush, to mash temp, to pitch rate/temp, ferm temp, and time in tank...

Forever learning Forever playing, but my process is rock solid at this point.

I've done some semi-random experimenting.

After i brewed a honey nut brown ale and found that i didn't like what the honey added to it, I tried replacing the % of fermentables the honey added with cooked brown rice, and liked what that did.

I've suggested some crazy things. I grow concord grapes - because my house came with several vines. I'm not a wine drinker and i know that concord is not a wine grape. But this fall i plan to stew about a pound of concords and rack a 1 gallon batch of witbier over the resulting purple mush, just to see how that turns out.

So I don't know where i fall in this debate. I think n00bs should be careful because 5 gallons of bad beer is a tragedy, but i don't want to tell people they shouldn't try tweaking their recipes.

I guess my question would be why do people care what others do to their own homebrew. And if someone says because they are sick of the noobs coming on here complaining that their beer sucks or is their beer ruined when they put a bunch of fruit or other items in it to doctor the recipe, then just don't read those threads. That's what I do.

Sorry for the long second sentence.

Breck09 said:

I guess my question would be why do people care what others do to their own homebrew. And if someone says because they are sick of the noobs coming on here complaining that their beer sucks or is their beer ruined when they put a bunch of fruit or other items in it to doctor the recipe, then just don't read those threads. That's what I do.

Sorry for the long second sentence.

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Well, because some of us care about new brewers, that's why we spend such a long time on here helping them......And as that pertains to this discussions a lot of their problems, that we have to help them through, would be avoided if in the beginning they didn't try to toss the whole kitchen sink into their first beers, without understanding what they're doing.

So why do you care so much what we care about then? If you don't like some of our opinions or answers then just don't read this thread.





We have just as much right to "care" what new brewers do, and discuss it, as you evidently don't.....

starrfish said:

Brewed a house pale 2 weeks apart same base recipe, but switched up yeast... I am certain any difference in flavor/aroma is from yeast not other factors. Everything was IDENTICAL from grain crush, to mash temp, to pitch rate/temp, ferm temp, and time in tank...

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You try to control as much as possible, but part of the glory of homebrewing is that the yeast is really in control. I brewed a 10 gallon batch a few months back and split between 2 buckets. It was the same wort, fermented side-by-side at the same temps with the same yeast. There were still noticeable differences between the 2 buckets!

Heck, I've had several batches that were different from one bottle to the next!

ghova said:

But on brew day i couldnt resist the urge to add a # of DME to the mix, just to raise the OG a little and try to make it a little different from what comes in the kit. ... it tastes fine, but is just a little sweet and i want a little bitterness to counteract it. .

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But don't you see that if you had understood the brewing process, and ingredients, and recipe formulation, you would have understood that adding that DME was going to un-balance the flavor profile, and thus you needed to adjust your hops profile. If done right you could have ended up with a higher ABV beer that tasted good, with good balance.

But instead you had to use some bastardized process to try to get there, after realizing your mistake (I suppose) and ended up with a less than optimum result.

Hey, it's your prerogative to do whatever you want with your beer. And if the tinkering around is more important than the end result then it doesn't really matter what you do. But at least I hope you learned the true lesson from your mistake.

Onlooker said:

But don't you see that if you had understood the brewing process, and ingredients, and recipe formulation, you would have understood that adding that DME was going to un-balance the flavor profile, and thus you needed to adjust your hops profile. If done right you could have ended up with a higher ABV beer that tasted good, with good balance.

But instead you had to use some bastardized process to try to get there, after realizing your mistake (I suppose) and ended up with a less than optimum result.

Hey, it's your prerogative to do whatever you want with your beer. And if the tinkering around is more important than the end result then it doesn't really matter what you do. But at least I hope you learned the true lesson from your mistake.

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Yes I do see that. And I think making the mistakes I made, and hopefully fixing them, has taught me more about brewing than I would have learned just following the directions exactly and having a decent beer.

I understand about caring about new brewers. Hell I still consider myself a new brewer. I just found it odd that the OP would go as far out as to tell new brewers to stop putting specific things into their beer. Just didn't understand how it was hurting him or anyone for that matter. I 100% agree with the majority of the opinions here that when starting out do something easy, but I would by no means scorn someone if they wanted to throw a bunch of fruit in their first batch of an Irish Stout. Let them learn for themselves.

I think about it this way to, if we didn't have a bunch of people doing this exact thing the OP talks about there would probably be about 6 threads in this whole forum. Having them (myself included) screw up from time to time it gives people the opportunity to post in here and do what they love to do, help new brewers.

This is just one of those discussions that happens on here everything year...it's really nothing new to anyone who's been around here awhile. It's one of those traditions that happen on here, and there's two camps........







And it all doesn't mean ****.....

well crap, my second batch of beer was a wheat extract kit that I racked onto 7 lbs of blueberries, and it came out fantastic. Didnt realize I was doing it wrong

I think the main mistake of this thread is lumping all beginner brewers together.
Some people can't stand being ordered around and are determined to do everything their way, whether they know what they are doing or not.
Some people study and plan obsessively before they do anything.
Some people have a natural understanding of how flavors work together.
Some people just think they do.

ghova said:

Yes I do see that. And I think making the mistakes I made, and hopefully fixing them, has taught me more about brewing than I would have learned just following the directions exactly and having a decent beer.

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To each his own. Just pointing out what was painfully obvious.

revvy said:

this is just one of those discussions that happens on here everything year...it's really nothing new to anyone who's been around here awhile. It's one of those traditions that happen on here, and there's two camps........


And it all doesn't mean ****.....

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+1

Are you saying we should nurse our beer instead? What if we are not lactating?

huntb said:

I've brewed 4 batches and not one of them did I follow the exact recipe. The first three turned out great and the fourth is bubbling away. Why do people care so much anyways?

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Because your life is their business.

xjmox14x said:

Last time I checked, you learn just as much, if not more, getting things wrong than getting them right.

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Bingo.

RDWHAHB - make it experimental!

Seems like the OPs biggest issue is the thread that follow failure, rather than beginners deviating from recipes. That said no need to open a thread on a public message board if you don't like it.

well, it's sad when an enthusiastic beginner makes a huge mistake because of inexperience, and then may lose interest

MZRIS said:

I highly reccomend trying anything that keeps your interest in the hobby.

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Isn't THIS ^^^^ really the whole point.


My guess (and only a guess 'cause I wouldn't wan't to come off sounding like a know it all noob) is that just as many experiments end up making crappy beer and they say "my next batch I will ..." rather than quitting all together.

I would also add that experiments that go sideways are easier to choke down in smaller batches. Live and learn, right?

hansen_sh said:

Isn't THIS ^^^^ really the whole point.


My guess (and only a guess 'cause I wouldn't wan't to come off sounding like a know it all noob) is that just as many experiments end up making crappy beer and they say "my next batch I will ..." rather than quitting all together.

I would also add that experiments that go sideways are easier to choke down in smaller batches. Live and learn, right?

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Yeah.

But it takes me almost as long to make 1 gallon as it takes to make 5.

and my brew days are too infrequent.

Revvy said:

But going back to the cooking analogy. Coming up with a balanced and tasty recipe takes some understanding of things...just like cooking...dumping a cup of salt will more than likely ruin a recipe...so if you cook, you KNOW not to do that...it's the same with brewing...you get an idea with experience and looking at recipes, brewing and playing with software how things work..what flavors work with each other, etc...

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I like the cooking metaphor, because I'm one hell of a cook, but still a homebrew newb. I didn't learn to be a great cook by following recipes exactly. I became a great cook by looking at a lot of recipes, reading about various techniques, and assembling them into something that makes sense to me. I've never been one to follow recipes exactly, and I've made some pretty big mistakes and some godawful dishes that resulted in ordering pizza.

I don't see why I'd go about homebrewing any differently. I read up on what others have done, read a bunch of different recipes, read about others' techniques and what has worked/hasn't worked for them, and then I put something together myself that I think will work.

If my beer doesn't turn out, I'm probably going to post about it to try to figure out what I did wrong, and I hope you'll explain to me where I added salt instead of sugar or why this or that hop wasn't the right choice. I expect this will teach me how to make great beer that I love a lot faster than if I were to make 100 gallons of good beer that somebody else likes, and that's really where I want to be. I want to make my beer.

I think I'm the same as that other guy: I can't resist making the beer my own, so the half dozen kits I've made have probably all had a variation of some sort. Some have turned out excellent, and the best you can say about some of the others is that they were drinkable.

I read the first few threads and skipped to the end. Why do people care what anybody does with the beer they make. The people who innovate and try new things will tell the haters what to like in due time, be patient.
P.S
VIVA LA SECONDARY!!!!!!

monkeybox said:

I like the cooking metaphor, because I'm one hell of a cook, but still a homebrew newb. I didn't learn to be a great cook by following recipes exactly. I became a great cook by looking at a lot of recipes, reading about various techniques, and assembling them into something that makes sense to me. I've never been one to follow recipes exactly, and I've made some pretty big mistakes and some godawful dishes that resulted in ordering pizza.

I don't see why I'd go about homebrewing any differently. I read up on what others have done, read a bunch of different recipes, read about others' techniques and what has worked/hasn't worked for them, and then I put something together myself that I think will work.

If my beer doesn't turn out, I'm probably going to post about it to try to figure out what I did wrong, and I hope you'll explain to me where I added salt instead of sugar or why this or that hop wasn't the right choice. I expect this will teach me how to make great beer that I love a lot faster than if I were to make 100 gallons of good beer that somebody else likes, and that's really where I want to be. I want to make my beer.

I think I'm the same as that other guy: I can't resist making the beer my own, so the half dozen kits I've made have probably all had a variation of some sort. Some have turned out excellent, and the best you can say about some of the others is that they were drinkable.

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I think brewing is more like baking than cooking. Cooking is far more forgiving and requires less deep understanding of the process to innovate. That said I am a strong cook now because when I was younger I made some ****ty food. I still ate most of it, just like newbs will drink most 'passable' beer. Lastly, most food you make didn't take 4-8 weeks so it is only natural to want to confirm with an experienced community what exactly happened.

barmyarmy said:

Why do people care what anybody does with the beer they make.

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Why do you care what we care about?

What's the point of this thread??? If the OP doesn't like noobs 'experimenting' and then coming into this BEGINNERS Beer Brewing Forum to find out what they may have done wrong, don't come into the BEGINNERS Beer Brewing Forum?! Is someone forcing the OP to come into this forum to read all of these supposedly torturous posts from noobs who screw up their brews after 'experimenting'??? Thankfully, there are enough sensible experienced brewers on this site who don't mind taking the time to help out us noobs when we have questions about our brews or concerns about things we may have screwed up. I suppose the OP never had any questions about what he was doing when he started the hobby?!

I love this forum for all of the great advice I get and all of the helpful experienced members and the many things I have learned, but some of the 'Know it alls' like the OP can make this site downright unreadable at times...

Boysenberry syrup.

MMJfan said:

What's the point of this thread??? If the OP doesn't like noobs 'experimenting' and then coming into this BEGINNERS Beer Brewing Forum to find out what they may have done wrong, don't come into the BEGINNERS Beer Brewing Forum?! Is someone forcing the OP to come into this forum to read all of these supposedly torturous posts from noobs who screw up their brews after 'experimenting'??? Thankfully, there are enough sensible experienced brewers on this site who don't mind taking the time to help out us noobs when we have questions about our brews or concerns about things we may have screwed up. I suppose the OP never had any questions about what he was doing when he started the hobby?!

I love this forum for all of the great advice I get and all of the helpful experienced members and the many things I have learned, but some of the 'Know it alls' like the OP can make this site downright unreadable at times...

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What's the point of getting so worked up about it? It's called having a conversation....One that happens on here just about once a year.....No point in getting your cranked yanked about what the OP does or doesn't believe.

My first batch ever was a Brewers Best Irish stout kit. I added blue mountain coffee and it was awesome. My second kit was a Witbier. Added Chamomile tea and 25 batches later my wife swears it was the best ever. The ability to customize is part of what attracted me to the hobby. I understand the need to get the basics down and all that, but let's not take it too seriously.

barmyarmy said:

I read the first few threads and skipped to the end. Why do people care what anybody does with the beer they make. The people who innovate and try new things will tell the haters what to like in due time, be patient.
P.S
VIVA LA SECONDARY!!!!!!

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Well, sure, people innovate and that's cool.

I think the point was more that people start brewing to make unusual and unique sounding things. But without a solid basis, you don't know if the off-flavor is from underpitching, fermenting too hot, bad water, aged extract, spoiled hops, or from the 3 pounds of tea leaves that the brewer added to make the beer "his own"!

As an example, today there is a post (and I never want to call anybody out, this is NOT about that!) that says something like "My first kit is arriving and I ordered XXX kit with it. What can I add to make this kit unique?".

Well, the problem is that the kit may or may not be perfectly fine on its own. It might be an awesome oatmeal stout (or whatever type of kit it is). But by "making it your own" and adding a pound of lingonberries, no one will ever know.

Then, the brewer posts the very next question: "My beer tastes like crap! Why?" Well, it could be the 90 degree fermentation temperature, chlorinated water, not boiling the wort, and/or the pound of lingonberries.

I think that is more the point. Experimenting is a blast, and a great part of the hobby. But when you start a new hobby, maybe going wild may have to wait until you've been doing the hobby for a month or two. No one starts a sky diving hobby with, "Well, I think I'm going to try making my own chute, 'cuz I wanna be unique!" Of course, that's a deadly mistake so not really a great analogy, but that's sort of like starting any hobby in a way.

First learn a bit about the hobby, and then take your knowledge and go your own way.