Results from juice, yeast and sugar experiments

This past Wednesday, some folks came over to help me test 12 test batches from last year, using various new yeasts. I hadnt tasted any of these yet, so I also had some other known good batches on hand. Fortunately all of the test batches were drinkable - only really one outstanding one IMHO, but all were quickly dispatched. We went through these 12 and 10 others. Twenty two folks were good enough to fill out rating sheets so the scores below are a fairly representative sample - at least of my friends who like cider.

The first 12 bottles were test batches, using Fuji and Yellow Delicious apples pressed on Jan 7, 2011, unpasteurized, sg of 1.066 and ph 4.6. The fresh juice mix was low in acid (not much tang in the finish) so I let most of these ferment out a little lower than usual. That made them a little on the dry side, but better balanced. Most of them carbed up after 8 months in the bottle so the actual fg was probably several points lower than the values shown below, which were taken at bottling time. The ones that carbed are probably not great candidates for cold crashing. Dry ciders dont get much love from my friends, so scores were on the low side - I would have scored most of them about a pint higher.

4.3 - Safale S04 Ale yeast, fg 1.006, slight carb
5.4 - Wyeast #1084 Irish Ale Yeast, fg 1.002, carb not noticeable
7.1 - WLP041 Pacific Ale Yeast , fg 1.022, slight carb
5.1 - WLP028 Edinburgh Scottish Ale Yeast, fg 1.004, carb not noticeable
5.1 - WLP775 English Cider Yeast, fg 1.002, strong carb
5.6 - WLP023 Burton Ale Yeast, fg 1.006, strong carb
6.2 - WLP810 San Francisco Lager Yeast , fg 1.010, strong carb
5.0 - Wyeast 1272 American Ale II, fg 1.004, strong carb
6.5 - Wyeast 1728 Scottish Ale Yeast, fg 1.002, strong carb
6.4 - Wyeast 2112 California Lager Yeast, fg 1.008, moderate carb
6.4 - Brewferm Wheat yeast, fg 1.002, slight carb
6.5 - Mix of British yeasts , fg 1.000, slight carb

WLP041 was the clear favorite of this round. The ferment stalled back in January at 1.022. I crashed it and it didnt seem to drop much more over 8 months. Maybe 1 or 2 points, going by the carb. It got a lot of 9s and 10s, but was too sweet for some folks. I'll probably experiment with this again to see if I can get it to stall consistently. The Wy1084, WLP23, Wy1728 and Wy2112 got good scores from the dry cider drinkers but overall didnt do very well.

After the test batches, we went a few earlier batches. Most of these were keg carbed and then bottled, except for the two wild yeast batches. After these six, we drank a few more but by then, no one was taking notes.

7.1 - Gala, Mac, Prima pressed Aug 29, 2010, Wyeast 3056, turbinado. fg 1.010
8.1 - Stayman, York, Empire: 10-8-09 Wyeast 3068 Weihenstephan, fg 1.020
7.0 - Cortland, Gala Mac, pressed 9-13-2010 Wyeast 1010, orange blossom. honey, fg 1.010
9.2 - Stayman, Pink Lady, Albemarle Pippen, pressed 11-15-10, Wild yeast batch #1, fg ~1.010 (not measured)
4.5 - Stayman, Pink Lady, Albemarle Pippen, pressed 11-15-10, Wild yeast batch #2, fg ~1.004 (not measured)
7.9 - Stayman Winesap, York, Gala, pressed Oct 11 2010 Wy1010, raspberries, fg 1.002

My favorite of this round was the first one. The first wild yeast batch was also really good, as was the Wy1010 with raspberries. The second wild yeast batch was from the same batch as the first, but fermented a little longer. Very similar taste, but drier - which some people preferred, but majority did not. I wasnt crazy about the 3068 batch, but most folks really liked it .

CvilleKevin said:

caburdet78 - Personally, before adding sorbate, I'd rack the cider off the crashed cake and see if the crash was able to get all the yeast to drop out. Just make sure you dont suck up any debris from the bottom - just get the clear stuff. You can always drink the leftover trub - its usually pretty tasty, just not stable.

If the crash doesnt get all the yeast to drop, before adding any sorbate, you should put a small amount on your tongue or maybe mix a small bit with some cider to see if you are OK with the taste. In my experience, about half of my friends either dont notice or dont mind the taste, while others dont like it.

If the crash doesnt slow the yeast, my own inclination would be to store as much as possible in the fridge to keep it stable and then either take the rest to a party or have some friends over

If you go with the sorbate, before adding it you need to add a small amount of k-meta first. I dont know why, but adding sorbate without k-meta first tastes really horrible. For 3 gal use 1/20 tsp of k-meta (1/3 the dose on the label). If you have tabs that are 1 per gallon, use 1 tab in all three gallons. Stir it a little and give it half an hour for the k-meta to bind. I'd use a full dose of the sorbate, which would be 1 1/2 tsp in 3 gal. You might be able to get away with less since you crashed the cider first. OTOH, if the crash doesnt stop the yeast and you are OK with the sorbate taste, you might as well use a full dose to make sure the job gets done. good luck!

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to mix up the kmeta and potassium sorbate do I use water? if so how much?

to mix up the kmeta and potassium sorbate do I use water? if so how much?

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I just added mine to the jugs and stirred with a sterilized chopstick.

this is a ridiculous amount of information.

i don't know if this has been covered before, but when you backsweeten, what do you typically use?

when you backsweeten, what do you typically use?

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I try not to backsweeten if I can avoid it. backsweetening can turn an over fermented batch back into something that is drinkable, but its not as good as the original apple sugar.

The best sweetener depends on what is wrong with the cider. If it ferments out nearly tasteless, original juice or concentrate works OK. If it tastes harsh or sour up front, but has a decent finish, agave is good. If its thin and needs some body, a mix of cane and/or corn sugar usually works. Its all fairly juice specific, so best thing to do is pour some 4oz glasses, try various sweeteners to see what works the best and then scale up as needed

I will chime in here because I make a lot of back sweetened cider that has a lot of success. I ferment dry then back sweeten with
a. double sweet fresh pressed cider (cider frozen then half thawed and poured off)
b. AJ concentrate if IO don't have the cider

I have never had a bottle bomb, and here is what I do (now the cider is on the draft constantly though. No more bottling for me unless needed!).

1. Add sorbate to bottling bucket, 1/4 tsp per gallon of finished cider.
2. cold crash 24-48hours or if your my cider has been resting for 6 months or so, then rack off the lees into a bottling bucket.
3. Add your sweetener - this varies on sugar for your sweetener. Shoot for 1.012-1.026 for dry to sweet (woodchuck is 1.024).
4. Now taste the cider - if it is too tart, add a little water, if it is too insipid, add some malic acid (the ONLY acid found in apples). Add these both slowly because a little goes a long way. Maybe start with 1 tbls of malic, that is usually all it takes.
5. Now the cider is good, so crush 5 cambden tablets and dump into your keg.
6. rack the sweetened cider into the keg and force carbonate.

The sulphites will make the cider taste weird for the first few couple days (this is why you add sulphite last so you can get an accurate taste while you sweeten). However the funk will dissipate and it will taste like a really good woodchuck, or much better.

Sometimes my malolactic fermented ciders are really good on draft, they taste like a pinogrigio-esque wine with light buttery and apple nuance.

I know ckville has a strong preference for non-backsweetened cider. But People love the stuff I put out. My wife drinks this stuff almost exclusively all year long. I think the key is to use fresh pressed unpast. juice for your cider, then use the same cider to sweeten at the double sweet method I described.

well, i wanted to ferment the juice to completion, and I wanted it somewhat sweeter.

thanks for the info!

I make a lot of back sweetened cider that has a lot of success. .... I know ckville has a strong preference for non-backsweetened cider. But People love the stuff I put out.

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I'm not saying that backsweetened cider cant be successful - I just dont believe that it is as good as stopping it before the original apple sugar (and taste) has been consumed by the yeast.

The process you describe is very similar to what I used to do up until about 10 years ago. We would start batches of cider fermenting with champagne yeast a week or two before a party, with the goal of having it not ferment out before the party, because that would always taste better. Most of the time, it would ferment out and we would have to backsweeten with more juice. Sometimes we'd ferment it dry intentionally and then backsweeten it later. People always liked it and drank it right up, but the best batches were always the ones that we caught before they fermented out. We didnt reduce the juice we added and didnt add chemicals, but same basic idea.

This process will result in a decent tasting beverage, although IMHO starting with good fresh juice, fermenting it completely dry and then backsweeting is akin to making an all grain beer wort, fermenting it down to 0.995 with distiller's turbo yeast and then backsweeting it with malt. Sure, you could do it and you could probably tweak it so that it will taste good enough that people would drink it, but you would be sacrificing a lot of character. Same goes for wine - if you want a sweeter wine, you could use a strong yeast, ferment it down to nothing and backsweeten, but it will taste better if you just use a yeast with a lower ABV tolerence.

From reading comments on this board, it seems that most people are aproaching cider like it is a type of beer or wine, and trying to use those techniques. But cider is really its own thing with its own processes.

The main thing that fermenting to completion and backsweeting has going for it IMHO is that it is easy and relatively foolproof. You dont need to worry about catching the cider before it chews through the sugar - just let it go and backsweeten when you are ready to drink it. For someone who is just getting into brewing, it is not a bad way to go, but IMHO the limitations become apparant after a few batches.

Unfortunately AFAIK, no one has come with a yeast that has a low enough ABV tolerence to make a naturally sweet cider with residual apple sugar. They will all chew right through even the most complex apple sugars. Many traditional European (and some American) cider makers use nitrogen reduction to slow down the yeast enough to make bottle carbonated sweet cider. This can be done by homebrewers, but it takes practice, a consistent source of low nitrogen juice, and willingness to risk breaking bottles while working the process out. However with ale yeast, a fridge and some kegs, you can stop a cider wherever you want it, with no chemicals. Or if you dont have a fridge and kegs, the pasteurization method that Pappers uses is another good way to get a sweet sparkling cider in bottles.

1. Add sorbate to bottling bucket, 1/4 tsp per gallon of finished cider.

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I really dont like the taste of sorbate. Unlike sufite, it does not dissapate over time. Of my friends, I would say about a half can easily pick it out the taste and dont like it. The others can either pick out the taste and dont mind, or else they dont really notice it.

If you are dead set on fermenting to completion, and then backsweetening, why even use chemicals if you can keep kegs on tap? You could just ferment them out using ale yeast, store them dry and then backsweeten to taste when you are ready to put them on tap. Maybe use a little k-meta for long term storage.

I picked up the first juice of the Season this past Monday. Its a mix of mostly Cortland, Grimes Golden, Gala, Rambo and Jonathon, with a few Ginger Golds and Macs. The above pic is from Monday evening, with the fermentations just beginning to start

This may be the best early season mix I've been able to get so far. It has a great aroma, not quite as much sweetness up front as ideal (thats usually the case with early apples) real nice flavor and mouthfeel and a great finish. Its real tart and a little astringent, almost like it had some crabs mixed in.

We got a total of 132.5 gallons. I got 48 gallons and the rest for folks in the local brewing club. sg was 1.054 and pH 4.0 (it tastes way more tart than this - I might need to recalibrate my meter)

I added 4oz of sugar per gallon - a half pound of corn sugar and a pound of light turbinado per 6 gallon carboy, to bump the OG to about 1.064, and pitched a bunch of my and SWMBO's favorite yeasts - S04, (2) US05, Brupak Ale, Wy3056, Wy3068 and Wy3333. Also did a batch of WLP041, which was the favorite experimental batch from the last tasting. I'm planning to add some raspberries to one of the US05 batches right before the crash.



Five days later, they are all going strong. The carboys have all lightened up considerably and a few look like they will be ready to crash in a few days. The dry ale yeasts and the Wy3056 were all causing airlock activity within 6 hours, the others took about 18-24. All of the wheat yeasts and the WLP041 needed blowoff tubes. You can see how I didnt fill those jugs (the ones on the right) quite as high. For the first few days, I had to replace the water in the blowoff bottles twice a day to keep foam from forming in the bottles, but now they have been blowing clear for about a day. The dry ale yeast batches were all well behaved the whole time.

The basement has been smelling great. Originally I wanted to do a cyser with Wy1010 and Orange Blossom honey, because that's been a great combo but LHBS was out of 1010. Wy1010 always ferments a little stinky for me. Not having it in the mix makes a big difference, the basement smells appley with a hint of yeast, instead of the other way around.

CvilleKevin said:

I'm not saying that backsweetened cider cant be successful - I just dont believe that it is as good as stopping it before the original apple sugar (and taste) has been consumed by the yeast.

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well I'll see if I can catch it. I have 5 gallons of store-bought juice that i bumped up to 1.055 with table sugar. used some notty, after day 6 its at 1.025. I think I'm gonna stop it between 1.010 and 1.015.

I just crashed 4 of the batches that I started last Monday. After 6 days of fermenting, with temps ranging from 65 to 74, the S04 and two US05 batches were at 1.008. The Brupaks Ale and Wy3333 batches were at 1.010. They all tasted pretty good. I added raspberries to one of the US05 batches and crashed the other four.

Fortunately I just got a new fridge a few days ago, so I can handle crashing 4 carboys in one afternoon without resorting to ice buckets. Its not quite the fridge I wanted, but it seems to be doing the job. I ordered a new Summit SCR1400 fridge about a month ago. But on Tuesday I found out that it was backordered until October. So I scrambled and bought a used Beverage Air MT21. It was a quarter the price but needs a new door gasket. It might also need a coolant charge. It can get from room temp to 32F in about an hour empty, but after loading it up with 4 carboys, the temp went back to 65 and so far its taken a couple hours to get back down to 55.

The 3056 batch is at 1.028 and tastes great. It does not taste nearly that sweet. The finish is clean and not sticky. I'll probably stop it around 1.020. The WLP041 is at 1.032 and the Wy3068 is at 1.034. Both are good but way too sweet

The layout of this fridge is really nice. The exterior is 27x27 inches, so not too bulky and interior is 24x24 inches, which means it can hold 5 corny kegs on the bottom and 4 carboys on the top. Once I get a new door gasket and coolant charge, I'm hoping to replace my old fridge with this one.

You mentioned Brupak yeast is hard to find in the states, any hints on how I could get it? And Congrats on the awesome win in the Dominion Cup! Cider as 2nd place best of show in a big beer comp is damn nice work.

Thanks!

Yeah, Brupaks is hard to find. I've been ordering it from the Hop and Grape in UK. Prices are good, shipping is very reasonable for light stuff like yeast and they have all sorts of interesting equipment

http://www.hopandgrape.com/public/catalog.asp?catid=DRI2123070

They have some other interesting yeasts as well. As near as I can tell Gervin English Ale is the same as Notty and unlike Danstar, Muntons did not jack their price this year, so it is half the price of Notty. I'm going to do a couple kegs side by side later this year to see if I can tell them apart. Youngs cider yeast is good for a crisp but very dry cider.

This year the H&G website has been a little flakey for me. Not sure if it is my browser or what, but if you have any problems, email is [email protected]

CvilleKevin,

Have you ever tried Lalvin ICV-D47 yeast? We did a tasting over the weekend of ciders that I made in the fall that I fermented dry. This yeast seemed to leave the most apple taste.

(I'm using S-04 for cold-crashing to make a sweet cider, following your lead.)

Kevin -

It is impressive how this thread keeps growing and growing. There is so much great info here! I am finding it difficult though to search through for specifics about any one strain of yeast and I wonder if you would consider consolidating your impressions of the yeast you've used into a single pdf or even excel file. With over 500 posts in this thread, it would really help a lot of folks out if they were interested in trying something new-to-them, but not new-to-you.

Nothing like doing great work to make other people ask you to do more work, huh?

Have you ever tried Lalvin ICV-D47 yeast?

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Yes, I did a gallon with D47 several years ago. I agree, it makes a very good dry cider

I wonder if you would consider consolidating your impressions of the yeast you've used into a single pdf or even excel file.

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Yeah, I've been meaning to consolidate all of this for a while. I keep thinking that I will have time after cider season, but that didnt happen last year. In the meantime, you can use the forum search on four letter yeasts eg US05, 3056, etc and get lots of good info. But the search doesnt work for 3 letters like S04 or D47

Here's a question for the forum mods - how hard would it be to allow 3 letter words in the search function?

Thanks so much for this exhaustive info!!!

We did a tasting over the weekend of ciders that I made in the fall that I fermented dry. This yeast seemed to leave the most apple taste.

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what other yeasts did you compare?

CvilleKevin said:

what other yeasts did you compare?

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Nothing as extensive as yours, of course! I've got my list at home, but IIRC, they were:

• White Labs - WLP720 Sweet Mead/Wine Yeast
• Lalvin 71B-1122
• Lalvin ICV D47
• Safale S-04

The WLP720 was my first attempt, one batch from cider and one from Whole Foods apple juice. Also, one batch that had cherry juice and lemonade added, from the book "Strong Waters".

I tried the 71B because my first batch with the WF apple juice was too acidic. (When I bought more a month later, though, it was less acidic and more "appley" flavored. Different apple crop.) From the Lalvin spec sheet: "71B also softens high acid musts by partially metabolizing malic acid (20-30%)." It took out too much acid and made the cider taste watery.

The WLP720 was winning for the dry cider until we tasted the D47.

We all liked the sweet cider from cold crashing the S-04. Surprisingly, though, we were not too keen on the cider fermented to dryness with the S-04. S-04 was the only one I tried to cold crash.

These were all made in the November 2010-January 2011 timeframe.

The one with cherry juice had a nice cherry flavor a few months back, but tastes rather "vegetal" now. The feeling was that it would go well with sushi!

I've got my notes at home, but I think I got this right.

is aeration advisable during fermentation, similar to mead?

motobrewer - I have never found aeration necessary for cider and suspect that it would increase the likelihood of picking up acetobacter, so I dont do it.

smyrnaquince - interesting... I've had OK results with 71B but not with the WLP720, which I think goes to show that it is all somewhat juice dependent, although I got the same good results (if you like it dry) with the D47.

The ale yeasts are probably not the best for taking to dryness. I tried this with five keg batches three years ago, using S04, Notty and US05. Three ciders and two cysers. They were undrinkable for well over a year. By the 2nd year, they were OK for dry ciders. I still have some left in the kegs and break them out now and then for parties. Wine drinkers like them a lot, but obviously not that much because there is still some left.

I like to have at least one dry cider on tap for a party but aside from those 5 batches I did in 2008, I havent intentionally fermented a cider to dryness in the past 10 years (although I've unintentionally fermented plenty to dryness). S04 makes a great dry cider if you catch it around 1.002, at which point you would swear it is dry by the taste and finish, but it has a lot more flavor than truly dry.

How was the finish on your S04? In my experience, if the cider has a decent finish, then it will almost always get better with age.

I believe the best dry cider I've made was with 3056 yeast last year. I usually crash this yeast at 1.010 or higher, but I waited too long and didnt catch it til 1.002. At first it didnt have much taste, but it had a nice tail. Five months later it was really nice. I tapped the keg at a party and it floated before several of the sweet ones, which really surprised me because normally the dry cider dont get much love from my friends.

Took me the better part of 2 days to read all of this thread. Wow tons of info. Kevin thanks for all of the notes. I love the tasting notes and cider party scoring system in particular.

I was inspired and started a 3 gallon batch on Tuesday night. Pasturized cider (pretty lame tasting actually) with a mix of turbinado and dextrose and Nottingham yeast. The good tasting cider at the local store has preservatives. I may hit up a local orchard to see what I can find.

I think I tossed the yeast in too cold (50ish) and I still have no visible airlock activity after 60+ hours. It's sitting upstairs in the 70 degree living room.

I going to wait it out and see what happens. If nothing in the next day or so. I'll repitch.

Thanks again for sharing all of the info.

-Jared

CvilleKevin,

My goal was to make a sweet cider, I just didn't know how until reading your postings in this thread.

I can now refer to my notes. All were fermented to dryness except as noted.

Cold-crashed S-04 OG=1.051, crashed at 1.012): sweet, apple/cherry/fig juice notes, nice flavor all the way through. This carbed a fair bit on its own, so I probably need to do a better job of racking, but we liked the fizz.

S-04 (dry): aroma of grass/pear, mild, close second to D47

For dry ciders, as I said, the D47 came in first. Interestingly enough, the batch that I added sugar to to carbonate was better than the one that I did not. For the latter, the notes are: flat, a little sour, vinegar, acid

The Oddball:

• 1/2 gal WF apple juice, 1 qt R. W. Knudsen "Just Black Cherry" juice, 1 qt 365 (WF brand) organic lemonade, 1/4 tsp tannin, 1 tsp yeast nutrient, 1/3 vial WLP720
• OG 1.061, FG 1.005 at bottling 11 days later (I was new and didn't realize it would go further)
• Best cherry flavor at 1 (sweet), 5 (dry), and 6 (dry) months
• Months 2 & 3: sweet, lost a lot of cherry (that then came back in month 5)
• Now (@10 months): cucumber, "Japanese", vegetal, cherry (a little), hint of astringency, would be good with sushi

I plan to use the S-04 this fall for a sweet cider and the D47 for a dry cider.

I just crashed the last of the batches that were pressed on Sept 19th. It was the WLP041 batch, and I stopped it at 1.015. This has been a great yeast to work with for early season apples. Even with the relatively high temps in my basement, it fermented out nice and slow, which is a real plus when everything else is dropping like a stone. Ever since it hit 1.022, its tasted great - nice and appley although the finish was just a tad sticky until tonight. I thought about letting it go another few points, although I decided not to because I'm trying to get something that tastes close to an experimental batch from the last tasting, which was more of a sweet cider. I'll probabaly be using this again later in the season to check out how it works a little drier.

I kegged the Brupaks and Wy3056 batches a few days ago. These are my two favorites of the bunch and the Wy3056 is SWMBO's favorite. The Brupaks make a tasty pub cider that has a lot of flavor but still manages to feel dryer than it is (1.010). The Wy3056 is a little sweeter and more appley. The finish is a little sweet at 1.016, but not clingy. I took a couple liters of each to a party on Saturday and they were gone in no time.

Man its nice to have fresh cider on tap again! Last season I did manage to save a few kegs through the summer, so I never really ran out, but nothing I had saved is as good as these kegs.

I kegged the US05 with raspberry batch yesterday at 1.000. Thats a lot drier than I meant for it to go. In retrospect, doing an early season batch with ale yeast and raspberries probably wasnt the best idea. Usually I add the raspberries a few days before the crash when the cider is at about 1.010. The sugar bumps up the sg and in a couple days it is back down to 1.008 to 1.010. But with the temps being warm, the cider was already at 1.008 when I added the raspberries. When I checked it again the next day, it had dropped all the way to 1.000. That's pretty much how I make dry ciders these days - by accident. But for a dry cider, its really good. You get a lot of apple tannins at first in the taste, then the raspberry kicks in, then the rest of the apple and it’s a great finish. I havent tried it out on any of my dry drinking friends, but I'm thinking it will be fairly popular. It could use a little more time to mellow, but might not last that long.

The Wy3333 batch didnt come out quite the way I wanted. I've been using Wy3333 and honey to make a bottle conditioned cider using nitrogen reduction. That recipe is succesful in that I've been able to reliably bottle carb with it for two years now without breaking any bottles (knock on wood). The resulting cider is very drinkable, but not my best cyser recipe. A keg carbed Wy1010 cyser tastes a lot better IMHO. So this time I decided to try bumping the WY3333 with sugar instead of honey. It tastes great, but I would not trust this stuff in a bottle. During the crash, it kept blowing the bung out of the carboy. Its still real cloudy. Its at 1.010 and tastes the way I always expected a hefe cider to taste - appley, but also a bit orangy, with some clove. A little yeasty, so I've racked it once already while keeping it in the fridge. I might rack one more time before kegging it. I think this is going to be fairly popular and I really hope thats the case, because this is one that is probably going to have to keep cold to keep from refermenting. Fortunately I can do that now. I'm really liking this fridge. I dont know why I didnt buy something like this 15 years ago - would have saved me from all sorts of cider worries.

I crashed the Wy3068 last night at 1.018. That's another one of SWMBO's favorites. Its nice and juicy. Lots of apple with a hint of clove.

The US05 and S04 batches have finished the crash and have been bulk aging for a few days. The S04 smells real carmelly, good apple with lots of skin in the taste. The US05 batch is a little lighter all around even though both are at the same sg 1.006. Both are nice semi dry pub ciders which I'll probably keg later this week.

All of the ale yeast batches and the Wy3056 got nice and clear in the crash. That's usually what happens although last year it seemed that the ciders took forever to clear for some reason. I'm glad not to see a repeat of that. WY3333 and Wy3068 stayed cloudy, which was not too surprising.

Staymans should be ready in another week or so and I'm already thinking about the next round of keg batches. For the next round, I'm going to try out a technique that I picked up from the guy who runs the cider press. He lets his cider clear a few days and then siphons it off the trub before pitching the yeast. His finished ciders are always crystal clear. I'm not sure how that will affect the taste, so I'm planning on doing 4 batches with cleared cider and 4 batches the regular way. Two batches each of Brupaks, S04, Wy3056 and Wy3068.

Kegged the WLP041 batch last night and the Wy3333 batch tonight. Both taste great!

The fermentation on US05 and S04 batches started up again so I crashed them again. Planning on kegging these and the Wy3068 batch tomorrow.

All 8 kegs from the last pressing fit in the fridge. I picked up a 4 way CO2 distributer so I can force carb 4 kegs at once. Life is good, slightly hazy.

I'm planning on tapping these at a party here on Sunday. If you live near central VA and want to check them out, PM me.

just realized this is my 1000th post. Not sure if I should celebrate or check myself in somewhere. Nah.... celebrate wins hands down. that W3333 batch is growing on me

I just read the whole thread, I had to work the night shift so it kept me occupied throughout the night. I started reading just to figure out what to do with some fresh pressed unpasteurized cider. Now I want to buy more carboys and cider and start my own experiments.

Before reading this thread all the way through I went to the lhbs and picked up some 71B-1122. I wanted us 05 but they were out and the guy working talked me out of the s -04 because it was 4.95 compared to 1.25 for the 71B. Since I am only doing 2 1 gallon batches I guess it made sense at the time.

Here is my plan: I added a campden tablet to each jug yesterday(after reading this whole thread I see it might not have been necessary). I am going to bump up the OG to 1.060 to 1.065 using corn sugar and brown sugar(its all I have at home) then pitch the yeast and put the jugs in the basement. I am reading the 71B is good for a dry cider, if I stop the fermentation early by cold crashing and racking how will it taste? I wanted to get semi sweet to sweet cider as I was trying to get something similar to woodchuck. Would I be better off letting it ferment out then try and backsweeten with more cider or apple juice and just keep it cold? Or should I back sweeten and pasteurize, or pasteurize when it tastes the way I like it?

After reading this whole thread I am planning on getting 5 gallons and using the s-04 or notty and doing a whole batch but I am ready to get started on these smaller ones now. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

Now I want to buy more carboys and cider and start my own experiments

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You should do it! Its hard to find comparative info on using various yeasts for cider, even though yeast is generally the greatest determining factor for cider - at least as far as the raw ingredients are concerned. The more data points the better so let us all know how they come out.

the guy working talked me out of the s -04 because it was 4.95 compared to 1.25 for the 71B.

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Ouch! My LHBS sells S04 for 3.50. Fermentis and Danstar have really jacked their yeast prices in the past couple years. Two years ago S04 was $2.00 and Notty was $1.25. Brupaks is still a good deal, even with shipping from UK

I am reading the 71B is good for a dry cider, if I stop the fermentation early by cold crashing and racking how will it taste?

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If you are just doing gallons, that could work. In general, champagne, lager and wine (including 71B) dont crash very well, but gallon batches seem to do better. I think maybe because there is less thermal mass they chill faster and deliver more of a shock to the yeast. I doubt you could stop a carboy of 71B by cold crashing.

Would I be better off letting it ferment out then try and backsweeten with more cider or apple juice and just keep it cold? Or should I back sweeten and pasteurize, or pasteurize when it tastes the way I like it?

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Since you only have 2 gallons, I would just crash them when they are at an SG that tastes good to you, and then just keep them in the fridge. Maybe stop them at different point for comparative purposes. Since 71B is tough to crash, there is a good chance they will still pick up a bit of carb, so you probably should use PET bottles for first few batches.

CvilleKevin, Thanks for the replies. I think I will be trying more batches as I have cider mill about 20 minutes from my house. I will have to wait a few weeks though because I don't have the fridge space to cold crash a carboy so I need to wait and take advantage of the cold weather. I will continue to play around with the 1 gallon batches for now. I have a bunch of empty plastic apple juice bottles that I used to make apfelwein still laying around, is there any reason I can't use those to rack to and store it in? I doubt it will last long if it is even slightly drinkable.

I have a bunch of empty plastic apple juice bottles that I used to make apfelwein still laying around, is there any reason I can't use those to rack to and store it in? I doubt it will last long if it is even slightly drinkable.

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Those are fine for fermenting and short term storage as long as you clean and sanitize them

just bought 30 gal's of fresh juice from local orchard. mainly mutsu apples with some blushing golden and rome's. 3.7 pH, 7% alcohol/sugar conversion through the refractometer. added acid to three batches, made two batches into cyser with 5 pounds local honey, one cyser with k1v, and one with ec-1118. other batches of dry cider i used k1v, s-04, ec, and the liquid wyeast cider yeast. i want everything dry, as dry as possible. used go ferm hydration nutrient and will be doing staggered nutrient additions with fermaid o. this method has always worked great for me. i also always aerate before pitching and several times throughout the fermenting process. hydrogen sulfide sucks, and by doing this, i seem to avoid it. i do worry about acetobacter, but i do what i can to minimize the chances of that. if it happens, big deal, i have 5 gallons of delicious apple cider vinegar, which i can bottle and use for the next several years.

hit everything with camden, sit for 36 hours before innoculation.
next year i am probably going to do one big batch, around 40 gallons, and then 2 small batches. i drink this stuff like its water and i always have at least one on tap.

favorite part of the weekend is ending the night with a small pour of dry cider. i'll have beer during the day, dry red wine all night, then get tired and a big wine glass full of cider hydrates me and wipes away the dry mouth. wake up, no hangover. it's magic!

CvilleKevin,
Somewhere in this thread you posted a link to the website where you bought those clear swing tops. I tried searching the thread but can't find the post would you mind posting that link again?

I also posed this question in the fermentation forum but wanted some cider input.

So I've been messing around with cider for a few weeks and I have a nagging question that I need answered.

Does yeast metabolize sugar in order of complexity?

So in a cider could you end up with more apple flavor by adding a sugar that was less complex than the apple sugar? Example being dextrose...

Or in the same line of thinking could you brew 2 gallons of beer and allow the yeast to work it's way through maltose and then rack the beer ontop of 3 gallons of cider and end up with more apple flavor than if you added the cider to your wort at the beginning and the yeast worked on the simpler apple sugars for a longer period of time?

This might also depend on if you halted fermentation at the end to retain some residual sweetness rather than letting it go completely dry.

Any thoughts?

Somewhere in this thread you posted a link to the website where you bought those clear swing tops. I tried searching the thread but can't find the post would you mind posting that link again?

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http://www.ebottles.com/showbottles.asp?familyid=1314

Does yeast metabolize sugar in order of complexity?

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I believe so - although that is based on taste and not looking at yeast and sugars under a microscope. Also I doubt that there is a clear dividing line between how the yeast devours the simple and more complex sugars, but that a higher proportion of simple sugars are consumed early in the ferment, with a higher proportion of complex sugars left at the end.

So in a cider could you end up with more apple flavor by adding a sugar that was less complex than the apple sugar? Example being dextrose...

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to some extent yes. except that even the simple sugars leave some residual taste. Even dextrose. People assume that dextrose ferments cleanly, but it doesnt - it leaves a slightly beery taste which makes it seem neutral in a beer but you can pick it out in a cider if you use enough of it. In my experience, if you use more than about 6 oz per gallon of dextrose or cane sugar, you will notice the difference compared to just apple juice, at the same final gravity. I've found that a mix of 2/3 turbinado to 1/3 dextrose leaves a taste that is more similar to apple when it ferments out, so you could go to 8oz per gallon before it gets noticeable, although I generally try to use no more than 4 to 6 oz/gal. That is for cold crashing though. I've found that starting with an SG of about 1.065 makes it more reliable to stop the yeast with crashing because the yeast is nearing its alcohol limit - but it will still keep going if you let it. I'm not certain how much added sugar it would take to reach the alcohol level of the yeast before the sugar is gone

could you brew 2 gallons of beer and allow the yeast to work it's way through maltose and then rack the beer ontop of 3 gallons of cider and end up with more apple flavor than if you added the cider to your wort at the beginning and the yeast worked on the simpler apple sugars for a longer period of time?

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perhaps - if you use an ale or wheat yeast, the yeast would be partially slowed down by the alcohol level from the beer. How much apple flavor is left at the end would depend on whether the starting combined SGs of the wort and cider are high enough so that the yeast reaches its alcohol tolerance level before running out of apple sugars. I suspect if you stopped the ferment early via cold crashing, you would get more apple flavor this way than if you had added both ingredients together at the beginning. Sounds like it would be an interesting thing to try

I bought 6 gallons of juice yesterday and the gravity is 1.042. Does anyone know approx. how much sugar it should take to get it up to 1.060?

1.042 = (more or less) 10.5% sugar (g/100 ml)
1.060 = 17.75% sugar
so you want to add 7.25 g sugar per every 100 ml juice, or 72.5g per L,
6g = 22.7 L,
72.5 g sugar x 22.7 L = 1.65 kg sugar for 6 gal.
boom
get drunk

dinnerstick said:

1.042 = (more or less) 10.5% sugar (g/100 ml)
1.060 = 17.75% sugar
so you want to add 7.25 g sugar per every 100 ml juice, or 72.5g per L,
6g = 22.7 L,
72.5 g sugar x 22.7 L = 1.65 kg sugar for 6 gal.
boom
get drunk

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Thank you.

CvilleKevin said:

Even though I havent added any of the clarifiers yet, there were some interesting differences between the 5 batches with pectin enzyme added ahead of time vs the 5 batches without the pectic enzyme:

The 5 batches with the pectic enzyme were a lot lighter in color, which I expected. What I didnt expect is that they also fermented quite a bit faster than the batches without the enzyme, and even a little bit faster than the gallon of unpasteurized juice, even though all 11 batches used the same S04 yeast.

...

The pectic enzyme may also make the juice harder to crash, because all 5 of the jugs with the enzyme are noticably swollen after being racked and crashed for several days, while the batches without the enzyme seem to have stopped dead without any additonal swelling in the fridge - although to be fair, the batches with the enzyme have been in the fridge longer, so I'm going to let them all go a while longer to see if the batches without the enzyme eventually swell.

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CVilleKevin,

I am getting some unpasteurized cider from an orchard this weekend. I know I need to put in 1 campden tablet per gallon and let it sit 24 hours before adding the yeast. (I plan to use S-04 for a cold-crashed sweet cider and D47 for a dry cider. No additional sugar in either.)

My question is about the pectic enzyme. I had thought to use it (adding it with the campden), but your earlier posting indicated that it might be harder to cold crash the cider if I use the pectic enzyme. Do you still think this is true?

Also, did you notice any flavor differences when using the pectic enzyme?

Thanks!

nyer said:

I bought 6 gallons of juice yesterday and the gravity is 1.042. Does anyone know approx. how much sugar it should take to get it up to 1.060?

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you want to boost it 18 gravity points per gallon, or a total of 108 gravity points for the 6 gallons. Cane sugar contains 45 gravity points per pound, so you're looking at adding 2.4 pounds of sugar for the entire 6 gallon batch (or 0.4 pounds per gallon).

In metric: ~1.1 kg for the 6 gallons - or 0.18 kg (180g) per gallon

When using the S04 for a 1 gal batch, how much do you pitch?

I bought 6 gallons of juice yesterday and the gravity is 1.042. Does anyone know approx. how much sugar it should take to get it up to 1.060?

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I didnt realize that there were so many different answers to this question. I've always used the formula in Anne Proulx's book, "Cider", which says 4.5oz sugar per gallon for 10 points. Ben Watson's Cider book has the same formula. So 18 points would be 8.1 oz per gallon. That works out to a little over 3 pounds or 1.38kg - which is somewhere in between what dinnerstick and jlem got. I have no idea which of these numbers is the 'right' one, but 3 pounds plus or minus ought to get you in the ballpark.

your earlier posting indicated that it might be harder to cold crash the cider if I use the pectic enzyme. Do you still think this is true?

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Yeah, I suspect that the pectic enzyme increases the available nutrients in the cider, making it harder to crash. OTOH, I still have about 3 dozen bottles from that experiment which have been stored for a year at room temp and none have burst, so the effect cant be that bad

Also, did you notice any flavor differences when using the pectic enzyme?

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I still havent tasted any of those yet. Its been on my to-do list for a while, but I just havent got around to it. They are still sitting in my basement. Fortunately the juice has all been clearing nicely during the crash this season, so it hasnt been as pressing of an issue. I suppose I should do a tasting soon, just to free the bottles up. Now the challenge will be to find enough friends who are willing to drink 12 different liters of essentially the same recipe with various clearing agents, to pick out off flavors.

When using the S04 for a 1 gal batch, how much do you pitch?

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Anywhere from 1/5 to 1/2 a packet