Counterflow Chiller Tutorial

Man oh man, I have got to search the forum more efficiently. This would have saved me a few bucks. Great job Bobby M!

I must live on top of a glacier. I used gravity and by the time the wort flows through the cfc and into the fermetner it's easily down to 65. i could go lower easily but this is with my ball valve all the way open.

One thing to mention about gravity. If you do not have the level and orientation on your hoses right it will not flow! PIMA saturday. Thought it was stuck, but once I got it repositioned she started flowing. I made sure to take a picture so i could duplicate it next brew day. (No Stand)

O.K., I've read this thread and I have a pretty good grip on how to construct it. So far, I've built my system out of stainless in order to make cleaning in place easier. Now, I'm wondering if there is any reason to build my cfc with stainless instead of copper. The only reason I could see for doing so is if I hard pipe it in place. Right now, that doesn't seem like something I'm going to do, but who knows. I guess I could always build it and sell it later. Up until now, I've always used a copper IC. I was going to continue to use it since it was easily removed for cleaning. However, I'm starting full time 10 gal. AG and know that the cooling time with an IC will be greatly increased. What do ya'll think - Dwain

I think you will not regret making a CFC. And no reason to go SS over copper unless you have money falling out of your pockets.

I am going to build one of these CFC

is AC/Refrigerant line ok to use or do i need to use TYPE K or L ?

I would assume since the cfc will not be under pressure the the AC line would be ok, but dont want to overlook something.

thanks

Dwain said:

Now, I'm wondering if there is any reason to build my cfc with stainless instead of copper.

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The thermal conductivity of copper is much better than for stainless steel. There's no downside to using a copper chiller AFAIK.

I am considering switching over to an IC. Here's my reasoning: I was listening to a podcast this week and Jamil mentioned that using a CFC will get the wort down to pitching temp faster, but not all of it at once. You will have whatever is in the kettle still at a high temp until it reaches the CFC. An IC will bring the entirety of the boil down at the same time.

And the kicker is that it doesn't have to reach pitching temp to do the job. It only needs to go down to a certain temp, like 140 F or something, to do the most benefit. So if HSA is not a real concern, as it seems, then gently swirling the wort around an IC is not a bad thing.

So an IC takes a few more minutes to bring to pitching temp, but might actually be better for the wort than a CFC just because it bring the whole volume of wort down to safe temp faster??

This is why many people recirculate back into the boil kettle until the temperature of the whole batch is under 140F. I've done it both ways, and never noticed a difference. I suppose for lagers, or gently hopped beers you might notice a difference because the hops are in there for longer.

There is some truth to the benefit of getting the whole wort under 140f quickly, but I literally run 12 gallons out of the kettle in 5-7 minutes. We're getting a little nit picky with a couple minutes here. Now, for those who gravity drain through CFC's or plates, that could be a downfall.

TwoHeadsBrewing said:

This is why many people recirculate back into the boil kettle until the temperature of the whole batch is under 140F. I've done it both ways, and never noticed a difference. I suppose for lagers, or gently hopped beers you might notice a difference because the hops are in there for longer.

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That's the way I do it and I have noticed a difference in the flavor and aroma hop intensity. Provided you can push a sufficient volume of wort through your CFC, the difference between using an IC or CFC is probably quite small. The problem is that many of the CFC's use small diameter soft copper tubing which severely limits the recirculation rate and that puts them at a severe disadvantage, particularly with larger batch sizes. Using gravity alone with one of the small tubing CFC's takes way too long IMO. Using a pump is certainly an improvement, but still not fast enough for me.

I guess the question is: How fast is fast enough?

Do we really need to get the temp to under 140 in less than 5 minutes, or will 20 minutes give the same results? What about 10 minutes, versus 15? What is the magic number? I know it can vary by style, but surely there must be a consensus on this!

I just don't buy the theory that instantly chilling your wort to 65 is going to give your beer a universe-aligning taste.

I think the choice is all about tradeoffs.

IC will chill the full volume faster, but may not produce as good of a cold break. You need to properly size the IC to get a good cold break and to drop the temp quickly. Recirculating around the IC (whirlpool) greatly increases the IC's ability to cool.

CFC are great because you are pretty much guaranteed a great cold break. However, they do not cool the entire volume and when used for whirlpooling back into the kettle are not as effective at cooling the full volume.

IC's are easier to maintain, but must be build big to reach the same surface area for cooling as a plate chiller.

As with almost every choice, there are tradeoffs. All will produce great results.

If you go with a CFC of plate, and find your hops aren't what you wish, just use a hopback.

Boerderij_Kabouter said:

CFC are great because you are pretty much guaranteed a great cold break. However, they do not cool the entire volume and when used for whirlpooling back into the kettle are not as effective at cooling the full volume.

If you go with a CFC of plate, and find your hops aren't what you wish, just use a hopback.

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I disagree with both of the above. My CFC is as just as effective as an IC chiller and possibly more so. A lot depends on the design of the CFC. I'm confident mine can meet or beat most any IC. To be effective with the whirlpool method, you do need a high recirculation flow rate. Not all CFC's can deliver that, with or without a pump. Mine does.

A hop back does have its place, but IMO will never be a satisfactory substitute for all of the late addition hops. You'll get mostly enhanced hop aroma, but little hop flavor using a hop back in my experience. I have found it more effective to add the late addtion hops in the normal manner then chill the wort rapidly.

I'd have to add a pump to recirculate back into the kettle. Not something I want to do at this point in time.

Still, there is the question of how much time is too long for the kettle to sit there before it's cooled. Any numbers?

I am going to add a spigot to my kettle and have thought about going larger, but then realized that my CFC is only 3/8 so that would probably not do me any good. I can chill my wort more than necessary, but I want to add the ability to chill MORE wort faster. I think the only way to do this is to increase the size of the chiller diameter.

Jamil talks about his "whirlpool chiller" which is a recirculating IC system. I get the idea behind it, but again, it seems like a lot more $$ to spend for a few minutes worth of improvement.

Homercidal said:

I'd have to add a pump to recirculate back into the kettle. Not something I want to do at this point in time.

Still, there is the question of how much time is too long for the kettle to sit there before it's cooled. Any numbers?

I am going to add a spigot to my kettle and have thought about going larger, but then realized that my CFC is only 3/8 so that would probably not do me any good. I can chill my wort more than necessary, but I want to add the ability to chill MORE wort faster. I think the only way to do this is to increase the size of the chiller diameter.

Jamil talks about his "whirlpool chiller" which is a recirculating IC system. I get the idea behind it, but again, it seems like a lot more $$ to spend for a few minutes worth of improvement.

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I've actually never seen anything solid in regards to time, and I suspect it's because there are so many variables (i.e. type of malt, how vigorous the boil was, boil length, etc). You will find a lot of "...as quickly as possible..." but that's about it. Because most of the information you see is so vague , we homebrewers have taken it upon ourselves to take this as far as possible, even though it may not truly be necessary in regards to DMS. However, faster chilling should hopefully mean less waste water, so I guess that's a worthwhile cause.

I know DMS can be a concern, but I mostly seen in from the Immersion Chiller camp as a way to bash CFCs . (I'm an IC guy btw.) If you detect DMS in your beers now, yes, you'll need to change something (chill faster, boil longer, etc). However, if you don't, there is nothing to worry about.

In regards to recirculating with an immersion chiller, all I can say is that this makes a HUGE improvement in knocking the temp down. Of course you can do this by stirring, but then you need to have the lid off, or rig up some type of stirrer through the lid. If you don't have a pump, then yes that's a big cost, but fortunately the pump can be used in other stages of the brewing process. If you have a pump, it's a few bucks for copper and fittings, but you'll see a huge improvement.

I don't know if I would go to much larger than 3/8". Sure you can technically push more wort through, but that also means there will be less wort in contact with the copper, so it may not be that much of an improvement.

The 25' one I built cools a 5 gallon batch to 70 in one pass using very little cold water and is finished in less than ten minutes using gravity only from about 30" off the ground. I drain into a 5 gallon bucket, whirlpool it with a long spoon for a minute, and let it settle for another half hour, then drain to carboy and pitch starter.

I don't know how much of a difference it makes but I did solder a spiral of #12 copper wire around the tube for the entire length. The water comes out hot enough to kill a big patch of lawn, ask me how I know.

MajorWoody, how do you start your siphon and what do you use to siphon from the kettle?

i just built one of these and i'm trying it out for the first time in a few days. i want to have some sort of 'plan' when i put it to use. i do not have a valve on my brew kettle, so i've ran different ways through my head. any tips would be appreciated.


eric

Great post Bobby! This tutorial was extremely helpful in building this thing. Will have to test the final product very soon with my next brew session.

I pick up the Craftsman 5/8 x 50ft rubber hose last Saturday for $14.99 . I plan on making two and sell one .I have a Shirron plate chiller and a pump haven't used either yet ,is the CFC better or about the same as the plate chiller ?

I think a Shirron plate is about on par with the 25' CFC in efficiency. My monster plate chiller is better but then it's also about 4x the size of a Shirron.

flyfishnc said:

MajorWoody, how do you start your siphon and what do you use to siphon from the kettle?

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I second this.


What do you put between the kettle and the chiller? Is there some type of hose I can get at homedepot that can take the 210 degree wort?

Synovia said:

I second this.


What do you put between the kettle and the chiller? Is there some type of hose I can get at homedepot that can take the 210 degree wort?

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i can tell you what doesn't work. that's the regular vinyl tubing or using an auto siphon to start it.

i ended up with some of that reinforced tubing from lowes. i want to say it was 5/8" tubing (at .60/ft.). it held up pretty well for me on my last batch.

now if i can just find a way to start the siphon next time.

Just picked up everything I needed from HD(sans the reducers). I also just built a MLT following FlyGuy's DIY post and was hoping to pour the boiling wort into the MLT and letting it gravity feed to the CFC then into my fermentation bucket.

I picked up some clear vinyl tubing that I was hoping will work but from what I've been reading now it does not appear that it will. Can someone recommend hoses/tubing from HD/Lowe's/TrueValue that I can use that will withstand the temperature of the boiling wort?

Thanks!

I wouldn't recommend pouring boiling wort in the first place but also you'll end up warping the liner of the cooler too. Counterflows really want to be fed from a bulkhead in the boil kettle or you can also make a racking can out of stainless or copper. Lowes has a vinyl tubing with braided cloth inside which will do better than plain clear vinyl. The best material is thermoplastic or silicone but not to be had at HD or Lowes.

Hmmm, that being the case; how should I transfer the wort to the CFC? Right now I'm just using a plain ole brew kettle on my stovetop.

I'll snag some of the braided vinyl tomorrow when I hunt for the reducers. Will vinyl impart any off flavors? I seem to recall reading that in a couple of places here. Since I'm also building the MLT, can I use the same braided vinyl to insert into the SS braided hose?

flyguy is no longer suggesting inserting vinyl tubing inside the braid as far as I know. You really don't need anything in there.

You can use a copper racking cane connected to the CFC to siphon out of the kettle. Fill your CFC with sanitizer, hook it up to the racking cane and let the sanitizer run into a bucket. When you see wort coming out, switch to your fermenter.

Hmm, if I'm not putting a tube inside the braid how am I going to seal up the other end since the clamps suggested were rusting?

As for the copper racking cane; how would I connect it to the CFC? Sorry, I'm really new to all grain stuff.

Some people just fold the free end of the braid twice and smash it with a hammer. I like shoving a 1/4" brass pipe plug in there and putting a hose clamp on it.

You can attach the copper racking cane to the chiller with a length of reinforced vinyl tubing from Lowes. Silicone would be better, but you can only find it at specialty shops.

Sears has a 50ft All rubber hose on sale for $19.99 this week.

Craftsman 5/8 in. x 50 ft. All Rubber Garden Hose

Hello Bobby and members!

Do most people connect this directly to the pot? I'm thinking of buying a 10 gallon polarware with spigot or a 10 gallon Blichmann with spigot. Anybody got any pictures of what there setup with this CFC looks like in action? Are quick disconnects a good idea, it seems like it would be very convenient. Also do you just let the end of it run into the primary fermenter or do you attach something on that end of the CFC too?



I have mine nearly complete as soon as I find the 1/2" to 1/4" reducers.

I'd say there are probably a few people out there gravity draining through a CFC while most pump it through. Ideally you'd connect the kettle ball valve to the input of the CFC with a short length of high temp tubing (silicone or thermoplastic) and a quick disconnect would make that easier.

Bobby_M said:

I'd say there are probably a few people out there gravity draining through a CFC while most pump it through. Ideally you'd connect the kettle ball valve to the input of the CFC with a short length of high temp tubing (silicone or thermoplastic) and a quick disconnect would make that easier.

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Aaaand that's 12,000.

Thank everyone for the ideas and great tutorial. I built 2 of these, used the good rubber hose, checked for water leaks and no leaks on the joints on either of them! Can't wait to get the rest of my equipment this week to try this chiller out. Let me know if anyone is in need of one of these, I may not need the extra one!

Cheers!
Bill

elkdog said:

Aaaand that's 12,000.

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Dang. They creep up on ya.

I put my banjo fryer on a couple bricks to get my ball valve about 4feet off the ground.
I have a 3foot table my counterflow chiller sits on
My fermenter sits on the gorund.
I connect the 3/8th host barb on my boil kettle to the CFC with 2feet of Silicon tubing

Arkador, you have any pictures of your layout in action? I'm going to have a similar setup with burner, keg kettle, counterflow chiller and plastic fermenter bucket.

I am interested in a CFC and now is a great time of the year to buy the hose needed.

Someone though mentioned that using a CFC will increase the chances of DMS issues.

Any opinions on that?

Thanks

Gammon N Beer said:

I am interested in a CFC and now is a great time of the year to buy the hose needed.

Someone though mentioned that using a CFC will increase the chances of DMS issues.

Any opinions on that?

Thanks

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False. And if you're really worried, you can do what some do: recirculate from the chiller output back into the boil kettle until all the wort is under 140F. At this point, there is no danger of DMS. I've done both straight to fermenter, and recirculated, and never noticed a difference.

My brewing buddy just bought a 25ft CFC on Ebay and we used it last Sunday for our first 10gal brewday. I went ahead and bought the thermometer manifold from Morebeer for the wort output.
On a hot Louisiana Sunday afternoon (92 degrees) we were able to drop the wort from 210 to 73 in a single pass. It took half the time to chill 10 gal and fill 2 carboys than it did for 5 gal w/ an Immersion Chiller.
Granted, I am on "Well Water" and it usually cooler than "City Water".
All gravity fed.

really quick annd dumb question...

Did you guys use hose labeled as 3/4 or 5/8"? The hoses are not labeled as ID and after cutting the ends off of my 5/8" hose I noticed that the 3/8" tubing takes up quite a bit of the inside of the hose. It also has to stretch around the 1/2" copper pretty good. It certainly does not look like the pics. (slight bulge where the hose goes over the copper)

Oh yea, and I only cut 6" off the ends I may have to buy a length of rubber hose somewhere to make the water connection.