WLP644 -Brett B Trois

berebrando said:

Well, I'm currently fermenting my third all-Brett Trois beer. So far I have made a pale ale and fermented at 70 F (taste test tonight). Next, I made an IPA that fermented at 65 F.

Now, I have a wheat that will serve as the base beer for a sour. The wheat was brewed a few days ago and put in the fermentation chamber at 60 F, which is where I normally ferment with US-05. Twenty four hours after pitching and it is clearly fermenting. Interesting to see that temperature (at least between 60 ad 70) is not really slowing down the Trois.

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I don't think you'll have a problem with an initial fermentation in the 60's but you may have a problem getting the yeast to finish that cool. It will be interesting to see how yours finishes at the cooler temps. Maybe our batch of yeast is just being a pain in the a**. We just had Lauren Salazar (the cellermaster from New Belgium) talk to our brew club about bretts and bugs, and she laughed (in a nice way) at Chad for thinking he could predict what Brett would do in the real world. The stuff has a mind of its own.

BTW - my Janet's Bretty Brown ale is down around 1.020. Still only like 65% attenuation, but it's tasting a lot better and is not so sweet. I'm not going to re-brew it for now, I'm going with what I've made to share with the club. Hope it drops a few more points yet, but with all the crystal malts and high mash temps, it probably won't. It's a good beer though, so I'm happy with it.

Anyone get bubble gum flavors? The air lock on my Brett IPA smells like straight bubble gum. My Brett pale ale tastes like bubble gum. Maybe it's the interplay of hops and yeast flavors(?).

Fermentation blow-off I could see labeling as bubblegum; lots of ester production with my warm ferments. But none of that in the flavor of the beer.

Thats good to hear. I am building up a starter from oak cubes and the small and taste are fantastic!

I'll add my experience with this yeast. On Aug 17 I brewed what I am calling Blonde Soubrette. Here's the profile:


I aerated this more than usual with O2 (60 seconds). Fermented at 75F (ambient temps in my house in the summer here in Louisiana). Fermentation temps raised to about 82F and stabilized back to 75F for the first month. Temps went down to the low 70s in the second month of fermentation (fall is coming and it is bonfire season!).

I was at 1.015 SG 11 days after pitching. Aromas and flavors were mostly citrus (pineapple) with a little funk. It was pretty crisp and clean for such a young beer. A lot of yeast was in suspension. No krausen and no pellicle.

A week later, I was at 1.012 SG. Same aroma and flavor as before with a bit of a mouth puckering effect. Still a lot of yeast in suspension. No krausen and no pellicle.

Another week later, we're at 1.009 SG. Very dry and quite mouth puckering (tart, not sour). Bitterness is nice and removes the tartness in the aftertaste. A lot of yeast has fallen, but the beer is not clear.

One month after pitching, it's now at 1.008 SG with a profile similar to the previous sample. The level of tartness and funk is still fairly light and hasn't increased. I want more funk, so I decided to let it age a bit more. We're still in the primary on the yeast.

Almost two months after pitching, the gravity is stable (1.008 SG). There is a pellicle that looks like a very thin layer of fat that has congealed (see below). It has a few vivid white streaks. The aroma is much funkier with intense tart notes. Very citrusy aroma and flavor that is mostly pineapple with some orange and mango. Flavor is very tart, but not quite like sucking on a lemon tart. Ctrus is bold and fades to a smooth bitterness. This should be a great thirst quenching summer brew. I decided to let it age another week to see how it does. I will then cold crash for a week and keg.

Comments?

hope you guys don't mind a little hubris here, but I just found out that the beer I brewed with wlp644 took 2nd place in the Nordeast Big River Homebrew Competition...they offered a special 100% Brett category! I think there may have only been like 5 entries in the category, but a silver medal is a silver medal, right? I knew it was a good beer, but it's nice to have some validation, especially given the beer's "experimental" nature.

Congrats! I think it's awesome that a competition even has a category for 100% Brett beers.

I have two 100% Trois batches finishing up. I really need to devote an hour or so to reading through this whole thread once more to see how my results compare with everyone else's.

bigljd said:

The email above is actually mine. Some more specifics about the beer is it's mostly a copy of Tasty McDole's Janet's Brown recipe, only I switched out the 1lb of wheat for a 1lb of quick oats. The SG was actually 1.061 and it's currently stuck at 1.027. Everything I've read suggested that the Brett Trois rips through everything, and most people were getting 80%+ attenuation, so to counter that I mashed a bit higher (156-157) instead of the 154 suggested in the recipe, since I was hoping for some body left in the beer. I pitched a 2 liter stir plate starter that was stepped up 3 times over a week. I didn't aerate other than splashing the crap out of it while cooling and racking to the fermenter. Initial fermentation was strong, but then it crapped out at 1.027.
The recipe does have a lot of carapils and crystal malts in it - that combined with the higher mash temp would definitely leave a normal sacc yeast finishing way too sweet, but I guess I assumed that brett trois would rip through some of those sugars. Looks like I was wrong.
Maybe I'll just rack this batch to a carboy and pitch some Wyeast Brett L and let it sit for a few months, and re-brew the same beer at a lower mash temp for our club experiment. I guess I'll wait to see how the other club beers turn out first.

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As a follow up to this beer - I've left it sit for a couple weeks and I didn't notice any airlock and assumed it was finished at 1.018, which is where it was a couple weeks ago. I went to dry hop it today and took another gravity reading and it's now down to 1.012! So even with the 156-157 mash temp and 2.25 pounds of crystal/carapils this yeast still managed 80% attenuation! Pretty impressive.
Guess I should have been more patient - the yeast seems to crank through the first phase of fermentation in like 24 hours, then shifts down into low gear and starts breaking down the longer chain sugars over a few weeks.
The taste is good, although it's a little more bitter now that there is less sugars to balance the IBUs. Once the dry hopping is done and it's kegged and carbed I think it should taste good when shared with our brew club.

It's an interesting yeast, and should work well with beers that you want to end up on the dry side. I think I'll try it next on a nice citrusy IPA where I want the hops to shine through and the malt body to be subdued.

bigljd said:

As a follow up to this beer - I've left it sit for a couple weeks and I didn't notice any airlock and assumed it was finished at 1.018, which is where it was a couple weeks ago. I went to dry hop it today and took another gravity reading and it's now down to 1.012! So even with the 156-157 mash temp and 2.25 pounds of crystal/carapils this yeast still managed 80% attenuation! Pretty impressive.
Guess I should have been more patient - the yeast seems to crank through the first phase of fermentation in like 24 hours, then shifts down into low gear and starts breaking down the longer chain sugars over a few weeks.
The taste is good, although it's a little more bitter now that there is less sugars to balance the IBUs. Once the dry hopping is done and it's kegged and carbed I think it should taste good when shared with our brew club.

It's an interesting yeast, and should work well with beers that you want to end up on the dry side. I think I'll try it next on a nice citrusy IPA where I want the hops to shine through and the malt body to be subdued.

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Hopefully I'll have something similar to share.

I brewed a Rye Porter with a good bit of crystal. It stalled/finished at 1.030. So I decided to pitch some washed wlp644. I liked it in a 100% Brett beer will see how it plays with s-04.

I just drank the first bottle that had decent enough carbonation. (this thing has been VERY slow to do so) The beer is intensely fruity with a nice soft malt finish. This beer is going to need much more time to reach the high level of carbonation that I primed for as well as drying out to the intended gravity. This beer is going to be quite amazing but it needs time. The fruitiness of ECY09 in conjunction with Trois is quite reminiscent of Victory's Golden Monkey.

I'm going to try a saison with this yeast sometime soon. this will be my first non-saccharomyces fermented brew. I haven't read through the entire thread, so forgive me if I'm being redundant...

How long are you letting this sit in primary? Does it benefit from extended aging in primary?
I'm going to be using 9lbs pils, 1lb wheat, 1lb rye, and .5 munich. For hops, I'm thinking Sauvin and Pacific Jade.

Should I add some adjuncts/crystal, or should I stick with the malts in the grain bill?

Thanks!

flyingfinbar said:

I'm going to try a saison with this yeast sometime soon. this will be my first non-saccharomyces fermented brew. I haven't read through the entire thread, so forgive me if I'm being redundant...

How long are you letting this sit in primary? Does it benefit from extended aging in primary?
I'm going to be using 9lbs pils, 1lb wheat, 1lb rye, and .5 munich. For hops, I'm thinking Sauvin and Pacific Jade.

Should I add some adjuncts/crystal, or should I stick with the malts in the grain bill?

Thanks!

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Gonna be a fruit bomb. It sounds like it would be tasty but you won't have anything giving you the spiciness typical of saison. It might be cool to add some grains of paradise seed to balance it up a bit. Unless of course you don't want a "spicy" character in it.

mhenry41h said:

Gonna be a fruit bomb. It sounds like it would be tasty but you won't have anything giving you the spiciness typical of saison. It might be cool to add some grains of paradise seed to balance it up a bit. Unless of course you don't want a "spicy" character in it.

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I'm pretty ok with that, but thanks for the heads up! How long are people letting this strain sit in primary?

flyingfinbar said:

I'm pretty ok with that, but thanks for the heads up! How long are people letting this strain sit in primary?

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I let mine sit for 6 weeks but I was doing a mixed fermentation with an East Coast Yeast Sacc. Strain.

Congrats Jim - I meant to send some beers up there. Dank Brewer did a great job putting together a neat competition.

I'm letting them sit 2-4 weeks, but it depends more on your particular beer and how complex your wort is. It looks like your Saison style wort should be pretty simple, so it should ferment pretty quickly assuming you use a good size starter.

great resource here. subbed. I have a Galaxy-hopped IPA going right now with 644. Can't wait to get it in the bottles.

here's a more general question for you guys - what do you do about equipment isolation for your all-brett batches? I already have separate equipment for my sour / mixed culture brews, but I'm wondering if I now need a third set of everything for 100% brett batches. Is hitting the brett equipment with proper hot pbw bath, followed by star san enough to take care of it? I've read differing opinions so far.

platypotamus said:

great resource here. subbed. I have a Galaxy-hopped IPA going right now with 644. Can't wait to get it in the bottles.

here's a more general question for you guys - what do you do about equipment isolation for your all-brett batches? I already have separate equipment for my sour / mixed culture brews, but I'm wondering if I now need a third set of everything for 100% brett batches. Is hitting the brett equipment with proper hot pbw bath, followed by star san enough to take care of it? I've read differing opinions so far.

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I'm curious about this too...how much more difficult are they to kill than regular Sacch strains?

Should be easily killed with properly mixed starsan or peracetic (if you have access). It's just yeast however slightly more acid tolerant than Saccharomyces yeasts, but not enough to make starsan ineffective.

smokinghole said:

Should be easily killed with properly mixed starsan or peracetic (if you have access). It's just yeast however slightly more acid tolerant than Saccharomyces yeasts, but not enough to make starsan ineffective.

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Thanks so much!

I hate to be annoying, but....

Does this yeast Krausen as much as regular Sacch? IE, could I get away with a 5 gal batch in a 5 gal carboy with a blowoff, or would I lose a ton of yeast?

Also, I hear that, with aeration, this yeast can stray from the fruity and enter into sour flavors. I'd like to keep mine on the fruity side...does this mean I shouldn't aerate the starter, or is it just when fermenting the whole batch?

I had minimal krausen. Now, I use Fermcap S, which I think keeps the krausen down on a majority of strains.

My starter and 2 batches both had fermentations like an active Belgian strain. I aerated all mine. Don't fear losing the fruitiness or gaining too much acid/sour. You might get a touch of tartness, but nothing anyone would label as sour. The tropical fruit will still be very present.

smokinghole said:

Should be easily killed with properly mixed starsan or peracetic (if you have access). It's just yeast however slightly more acid tolerant than Saccharomyces yeasts, but not enough to make starsan ineffective.

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True, but the issue with Brett compared to Saccharomyces is that it doesn’t take many cells to make over a batch… eventually. I run all of my beers with Brett through my sour gear. I’d rather risk my 100% Brett beers getting a little tart, than my clean beers getting a little funky.

Oldsock said:

True, but the issue with Brett compared to Saccharomyces is that it doesn’t take many cells to make over a batch… eventually. I run all of my beers with Brett through my sour gear. I’d rather risk my 100% Brett beers getting a little tart, than my clean beers getting a little funky.

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Mike, I ran a batch with ECY farmhouse Brett through my clean bottling bucket by mistake on day. Of course, a batch of blonde ale with Nelson Sauvin & Australian yeast went through it and voila, just the slightest hint of a funk showed up after a few months. It almost makes me want to run all of my clean beers through it...it's wonderful! Of course, I won't, but its a fun thought.

Congrats Jim on your beer! I was there for the judging and one of the judges said yours was the best in category, but I know they took some deliberating on which one was the best. Great job on that beer for sure!

I just drank one of my Biere de Garde's that I did 100% Trios (actually Avery 15 dregs that Almighty mailed me.) I found the Aroma to be a little spicy (much like a Saison) and the fruityness was more in the Flavor. It may have been my base beer playing with the yeast, but that was my impression. Too bad I only did 1 gallon of that beer Brett Drie Biere de Garde.

The base Biere de garde got 2nd in the comp in the French, Belgian category! I used the De Konich yeast for that portion of the wort.

nppeders said:

Congrats Jim on your beer! I was there for the judging and one of the judges said yours was the best in category, but I know they took some deliberating on which one was the best. Great job on that beer for sure!

I just drank one of my Biere de Garde's that I did 100% Trios (actually Avery 15 dregs that Almighty mailed me.) I found the Aroma to be a little spicy (much like a Saison) and the fruityness was more in the Flavor. It may have been my base beer playing with the yeast, but that was my impression. Too bad I only did 1 gallon of that beer Brett Drie Biere de Garde.

The base Biere de garde got 2nd in the comp in the French, Belgian category! I used the De Konich yeast for that portion of the wort.

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Thanks (and Almighty and othello too). Must have been a tough category to judge with no real style guidelines - my hat is off to everyone involved. As this beer has aged I definitely taste more sourness coming on as the hops are fading. I have another beer in the fermenter with this strain - a sort of southern English brown (OG 1.045ish). Last I checked it was down to 1.012. Fermented nicely in the low 60s. I didn't quite get the same fruitiness this time around (of course, I used less fruity hops as well, so it is hard for me to tease the yeast and hop profiles apart). I wonder if there is a malt component in play here as well.

I actually forget what equipment I used to bottle my last batch. I remember thinking it was just yeast (and not bacteria), so I am a little nervous that I used my regular stuff instead of my "contaminated" stuff. I'll have to be on the look out for Brett flavors coming on in my non-Brett beers.

flyingfinbar said:

... forgive me if I'm being redundant...

How long are you letting this sit in primary? Does it benefit from extended aging in primary?
I'm going to be using 9lbs pils, 1lb wheat, 1lb rye, and .5 munich. For hops, I'm thinking Sauvin and Pacific Jade.

Should I add some adjuncts/crystal, or should I stick with the malts in the grain bill?

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Your grain bill is slightly similar (no crystal, namely, but also the same grains in different proportions) to what I have been doing with 644. Keep it simple. I use 10.75 2row, 7.25 wheat, 3.75 rye, and a splash of Munich in a 12 gallon batch (10 gallons packaged). Im targeting a fruity pale ale type finish. Keep in mind that Brett does not produce glycerol (Sacc does), so your beer will have a lighter mouthfeel than a Sacc beer.

I'm going to add my answers, whether it's redundant or not:
I primary 4 weeks, same with all my Sacc beers. No secondary unless I'm adding fruit or bugs
I cannot advise on extended primary or secondary, but I have been very happy with my 4 week turn around.
I would stick with the Malta you have identified.

As for equipment, I use my infected plastics when I'm playing with Brett.

berebrando said:

Your grain bill is slightly similar (no crystal, namely, but also the same grains in different proportions) to what I have been doing with 644. Keep it simple. I use 10.75 2row, 7.25 wheat, 3.75 rye, and a splash of Munich in a 12 gallon batch (10 gallons packaged). Im targeting a fruity pale ale type finish. Keep in mind that Brett does not produce glycerol (Sacc does), so your beer will have a lighter mouthfeel than a Sacc beer.

I'm going to add my answers, whether it's redundant or not:
I primary 4 weeks, same with all my Sacc beers. No secondary unless I'm adding fruit or bugs
I cannot advise on extended primary or secondary, but I have been very happy with my 4 week turn around.
I would stick with the Malta you have identified.

As for equipment, I use my infected plastics when I'm playing with Brett.

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Fantastic info, I appreciate the time it took to type up!

I got my vial in the mail today, along with a couple oz of Sauvin...looking to start building the starter tomorrow after work. I love the idea of a 100% Brett saison with NZ hops!

Thanks again

flyingfinbar said:

I love the idea of a 100% Brett saison with NZ hops!

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it sounds like a great idea. Wish I could find some NZ hops...

Flyingfinbar - The combo of the Nelson and Brett Trois/Drie is great. The beer I brewed was similar, but I did add crystal and it was the second runnings of a barleywine. The beer went over very well with my homebrew club and friends. Be prepared for a fruit bomb depending on how much Nelson you add. I dry-hopped with an ounce in 5 gals, which was great.

Here are my brew session details - http://jeffreycrane.blogspot.com/2012/05/brett-series-extra-special-bretter.html
and Tasting Notes - http://jeffreycrane.blogspot.com/2012/05/homebrew-tasting-100-brett-drie-100.html

Hope you enjoy it as much as I did.

A little more research: I have fermented with Trois three times now at 60 F, 65F, and 70F. Following two weeks in the fermentation chamber, and two weeks at ambient, each beer has finished at 1.010... Tasting notes forthcoming

berebrando said:

A little more research: I have fermented with Trois three times now at 60 F, 65F, and 70F. Following two weeks in the fermentation chamber, and two weeks at ambient, each beer has finished at 1.010... Tasting notes forthcoming

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Very good data feedback. I'm starting to realize that the info I shared a few weeks ago about temperature and Trois is probably not correct. I think the yeast just needs time to finish it's process. I was trying to rush it by warming it up, but I think it just needed time to do it's thing.
I kegged and force carb'd my Janets brown 100% Trois a couple nights ago, and it's delicious. Tastes more like a black IPA than brown, but that's just from the Janet's brown recipe being very hoppy. You'd never know it was a brett beer, just a bit fruity with no funk. Unfortunately I have to share this with our brew club so I can only drink a little bit of it . Gonna have to brew another one like this soon.

berebrando said:

A little more research: I have fermented with Trois three times now at 60 F, 65F, and 70F. Following two weeks in the fermentation chamber, and two weeks at ambient, each beer has finished at 1.010... Tasting notes forthcoming

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I'm thinking between 65 - 68 F might be the sweet spot for Trois, but I'm definitely very curious to hear your tasting results from those three temp variations.

My session White IPA with Trois is winning some converts. I have a few friends that are super into beer but for some reason very slow to get into sour stuff. Trois is helping them to accept that Brett doesn't have to be too out there. I think it's hard to not like something this fruity and flavorful.

Does anyone have experience repitching on a cake of Trois, or any 100% Brett cake for that matter. I'm bottling my petite saison tomorrow night and will be brewing an IPA Friday and was thinking of pitching half of the 11 gallon IPA on to the cake, or bottling and pouring a pint into a mason jar and saving till Friday. The cake is 12 weeks old btw, would have bottled at 8 weeks but life got in the way.

I don't wash anymore, I usually build a starter for a batch, decant, refill my vial and pitch the rest into my beer. Which I did with Trois when I made the saison.

Coff said:

Does anyone have experience repitching on a cake of Trois, or any 100% Brett cake for that matter.

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I stash my yeast in mason jars or nalgene bottles. For Brett, I do not store it cold. I keep it in the fermentation chamber which is always between 60 and 70. I pull out my Brett and pitch based on mr malty's slurry calculations for a lager. So far, each batch has finished at 1.010, so I'm going to continue with this methodology.

For Sacc, I usually like to harvest and repitch the same day because it saves me the time it takes to build a starter and properly store the yeast.

I familiar with Mr Malty and repitching from a cake, just wondering what experiences people have had going that route as opposed to making a starter from the second generation.

So you don't wash, you just pour the cake into your Nalgene bottles and store?

Coff said:

So you don't wash, you just pour the cake into your Nalgene bottles and store?

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That's it. I've done it both ways - washing vs storing the cake. My experiences with this method have been much more successful than my experiences with washing. I do it this way because (a) yeast is happy when stored under a layer of beer, and (b) less processing means less opportunities for infections.

I've been happy with the results reusing the Trois cakes... Though I have been controlling my pitching rates and not just reusing the entire cake.

When I racked my first batch onto fruit into a carboy. I dumped about a quart of yeast cake into a sanitized saucepan where it rested for 12 hours before getting pitched into a porter. Essentially the equivalent of pitching onto a whole cake, but since I ferment in my kettle, I had to give it a second home for a few hours. It was definitely an over pitch. It was raging in 24 hours and through it's first dash in 48. But 3 months later I just tapped it Tuesday night. Having it for a second time right not. I love it. No off flavors detected and really smooth.

berebrando said:

That's it. I've done it both ways - washing vs storing the cake. My experiences with this method have been much more successful than my experiences with washing. I do it this way because (a) yeast is happy when stored under a layer of beer, and (b) less processing means less opportunities for infections.

I've been happy with the results reusing the Trois cakes... Though I have been controlling my pitching rates and not just reusing the entire cake.

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Alright, well thats what I'll do then. This IPA brew day has snuck up on me so I couldn't build up a sufficient starter.

Ive done repitching from cakes and washing but only on sacch strains. I figured it would be the same here but was curious how its been working out for others.

Oldsock said:

True, but the issue with Brett compared to Saccharomyces is that it doesn’t take many cells to make over a batch… eventually. I run all of my beers with Brett through my sour gear. I’d rather risk my 100% Brett beers getting a little tart, than my clean beers getting a little funky.

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good stuff. this is exactly what I was thinking, but it's great to hear it put this way.

another question - are people generally cold crashing before bottling their all-brett beers? mine has been in the fermenter for roughly 6 weeks, and it's down to 1.008 SG. it is already very clear. I've only cold crashed once before, and that batch (standard sacch fermentation) never carbed up properly in bottles afterwards, so I'm a little hesitant to do so again. As long as the gravity is stable, should I still be good to bottle, just like any other batch... or will the brett keep on chewing away and make bottle bombs?

Platypotamus, I wouldn't cold crash it. I can't really see the need for it unless it's what you like to do.