Lactic acid for a dummy (me)?

I have tried to digest all the wonderful info on brewing water that is out there but it has been a bit overwhelming.

I got feedback from a brew comp that there was some astringency in my beer. I also personally feel that I use a lot of hops but their effect seems subdued or muted.

From the bits and pieces I've picked up, and getting a ph meter and using it, I think I have a direction to go.

I'm brewing today and wanted to get my feet wet with some minor water adjustments.

Here is what I know about my water (not from my own water report but from a water report I found for the city I live in)

Calcium: 36.00 ppm
Sulfate: 24.00 ppm
Magnesium: 16.00 ppm
Chloride: 25.00 ppm
Sodium: 11.00 ppm
Bicarbonate: 38.00 ppm
PH: 8.00

So last batch I made had a mash ph of 5.8 and that was a Scottish ale with a bit of roasted malt. I added some acidulated malt on the fly, about 1/2lb, but I feel like I could taste it and it didn't fit what I wanted from my Scottish ale.

Since then I have purchased some lactic acid. I'm nervous about using it in the mash so I was going to pass on that for today until I get a better handle on what I'm doing. But I was considering adding some to my sparge water to get the ph down before fly sparging. Will adding lactic acid to the sparge water have much flavor impact? If it's much of a risk I'll pass for today.

I was also going to add a bit of gypsum to the boil to help bring out the hops a bit more. Making an ESB.

Any general advice would be appreciated.

https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/

His spreadsheet seems daunting at first but is pretty straightforward and extremely helpful.

Since I have started building my own water profiles I have noticed a marked improvement in my beers, especially malt forward(my towns water has a high sulfate content).

It's just one more level of control.

The MG and NA content of your water is pretty high, you'll definitely need to dilute it with RO/DI water to get them in range. The spreadsheet has that function.

Be aware that room temp PH and Mash temp PH are different. Expect the room temp PH to be .2-.3 higher than the mash PH. I usually shoot for a room temp PH of 5.5-5.6 expecting it to drop to where I want it at mash temps.

Xpertskir said:

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The MG and NA content of your water is pretty high, you'll definitely need to dilute it with RO/DI water to get them in range. The spreadsheet has that function.

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Really? I was thinking these looked pretty good (and are actually slightly lower than in my typical brewing water). Palmer recommends Mg between 10-30 and Na between 0-150. Maybe I'm missing something....

In addition to the excellent spreadsheet linked above, the OP may also want to take a look at the 'EZ Water Calculator' spreadsheet (should be able to find with some quick googling). It may be more accessible for a first-time user.

Gameface said:

I got feedback from a brew comp that there was some astringency in my beer. I also personally feel that I use a lot of hops but their effect seems subdued or muted.

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It's easy to blame water (sulfate) for this and many other ills but other things can cause it too like extraction from grain husks by excessive pH in sparge water. Your sulfate is right on the edge of where it can cause problems with some beers, especially if noble hops are involved.

Gameface said:

From the bits and pieces I've picked up, and getting a ph meter and using it, I think I have a direction to go.

Click to expand...

This is a wise decision though you may, in the course of learning how to use it, question the wisdom.

Gameface said:

I'm brewing today and wanted to get my feet wet with some minor water adjustments.

Here is what I know about my water (not from my own water report but from a water report I found for the city I live in)

Calcium: 36.00 ppm
Sulfate: 24.00 ppm
Magnesium: 16.00 ppm
Chloride: 25.00 ppm
Sodium: 11.00 ppm
Bicarbonate: 38.00 ppm
PH: 8.00

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That's pretty good water. Only minor adjustments should be required. Note that there is nothing wrong with your sodium or magnesium levels though diluting everything down with RO and building back up calcium and sulfate is a simple and effective way of setting water chemistry. See the Primer for more on this.

Whether you use it straight or dilute it you will want some acid for most beers. The question is how much and that depends on the beer. For light beers the equivalent of 2 - 3% grist weight in sauermalz is generally good.

Gameface said:

So last batch I made had a mash ph of 5.8 and that was a Scottish ale with a bit of roasted malt. I added some acidulated malt on the fly, about 1/2lb, but I feel like I could taste it and it didn't fit what I wanted from my Scottish ale.

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If that was less than 5% of the grist by weight you should not have noticed the taste and 5% would probably be too much for this beer as the rule of thumb is 0.1 pH drop for each % w/w. Sauermalz, being malt, does introduce malt flavors but they are very subtle and desirable in lagers but might not be so in a Scottish ale. You definitely should not have noticed the flavor of lactate ion at levels at or below 5%.

Gameface said:

Since then I have purchased some lactic acid. I'm nervous about using it in the mash so I was going to pass on that for today until I get a better handle on what I'm doing.

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Sauermalz is, I feel, safer as you can't slip and add too much of that without really trying to screw up and it is so easy to calculate the amount required.

Gameface said:

But I was considering adding some to my sparge water to get the ph down before fly sparging. Will adding lactic acid to the sparge water have much flavor impact? If it's much of a risk I'll pass for today.

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How will you determine how much to add? And how will you measure it out. It isn't necessary with the low alkalinity you are dealing with.

Gameface said:

I was also going to add a bit of gypsum to the boil to help bring out the hops a bit more. Making an ESB.

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That should or should not be done according to your personal taste. I'd recommend tasting a beer you have already brewed with this water with and without some gysum additions in the glass. This will tell you whether or not more sulfate will improve your beers.

jwalker1140 said:

Really? I was thinking these looked pretty good (and are actually slightly lower than in my typical brewing water). Palmer recommends Mg between 10-30 and Na between 0-150. Maybe I'm missing something....

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For lower SRM beers they are further off than for brown and black beers, which in some cases they are fine.

I'm no expert, I have put a lot of faith in the profiles built for me in Bru'n water and other resources who I assume are experts.

Its my understanding that MG and NA are down the pecking order of importance anyways.

With the very modest bicarbonate content of that water, I'm surprised that the mash pH was as high as reported. 5.8 is higher than I'd expect and 5.5 to 5.6 would not have surprised me. Something does seem amiss. How confident are you in the city's water report? Did you measure the mash pH after the acid malt was added?

With the low level of bicarbonate in the water, very little acidification of the sparging water will be needed. You could actually get by with none. If acidification was performed, there should be no flavor effect due to the minor lactic acid addition.

If the water report is accurate, I don't see any significant concerns. A few ions may be a little higher than preferred in some beers, but they are OK.

Thanks for all the responses! They really helped.

So I didn't mess around with the lactic acid today but I did add 1lb (4.4% -- 10.5G batch) of acidulated malt to the mash. My measured mash ph was 5.36, so I'm pretty happy with that. My efficiency was also a lot higher than normal, which has been 76% for the last few brews.

Gameface said:

Thanks for all the responses! They really helped.

So I didn't mess around with the lactic acid today but I did add 1lb (4.4% -- 10.5G batch) of acidulated malt to the mash. My measured mash ph was 5.36, so I'm pretty happy with that. My efficiency was also a lot higher than normal, which has been 76% for the last few brews.

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What was the grain bill? That's quite a bit of acidulated malt.

afr0byte said:

What was the grain bill? That's quite a bit of acidulated malt.

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20lbs MO
1LB Carastan
1lb Acidulated
0.5lb Victory
0.25lb Brown Malt

mash@148 75min w/24qt water

Yeah, it was a lot. I also have my doubts that you can't taste it under 5% of the grist. I chewed on a couple grains and they have a very strong sour taste.

My last batch had a measured ph of 5.82 so to get it between 5.2 and 5.5 I needed quite a bit.

Gameface, are you calibrating your meter and checking your mash sample cooled to room temp?

Gameface said:

Yeah, it was a lot. I also have my doubts that you can't taste it under 5% of the grist. I chewed on a couple grains and they have a very strong sour taste.

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Yes, they do. The stuff is 1 - 2% lactic acid by weight. I think it's pretty tasty when chewed - the combination of the lactic acidity and the sweetness of the malt itself.

As to whether you can taste it or not: try the beer on your friends without phrasing your request for their opinions in terms like "Does it taste sour?" Suggestion is awfully powerful. A double blind triangle test is the only way to be sure if the sourness is perceptible to people in general.

Quotation from the horse's mouth:

Importantly, Acidulated Malt NEVER
imparts “sour,” acidic notes to the
finished beer, as long as its portion of
the grain remains below 10%!"

But keep in mind that this horse (Weyermann) sells acidulated malt.

Gameface said:

My last batch had a measured ph of 5.82 so to get it between 5.2 and 5.5 I needed quite a bit.

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According to Weyermann's guidelines 5% should drop your mash pH by 0.5 so that is the amount you would need for a mash pH (without any) of 5.82. But 5.82 is suspiciously high. Your alkalinity is low and most grains don't have DI pH's as high as 5.82, in particular Maris Otter which tends to come in low at 5.6 or so.

RCCOLA said:

Gameface, are you calibrating your meter and checking your mash sample cooled to room temp?

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My ph meter was calibrated just before I took my readings on the previous batch but I did not calibrate this time.

I cooled the wort for the sample but it was still in the upper 80s. My meter claims to correct for temp but I've read that shouldn't be trusted.

I agree that 5.8 seems really high when I've been brewing for years and haven't had any major issues with my mash and my beers have generally turned out well. I was surprised to see that number.

Gameface said:

My ph meter was calibrated just before I took my readings on the previous batch but I did not calibrate this time.

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Until you have demonstrated to yourself that your pH meter is stable for long periods of time you should at least check calibration each brew day. It is usually required that the inexpensive meters that home brewers typically buy be calibrated more than once per day. More on checking and calibrating at https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/ph-meter-calibration-302256/.

Gameface said:

I cooled the wort for the sample but it was still in the upper 80s. My meter claims to correct for temp but I've read that shouldn't be trusted.

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There are two temperature related effects at play. One is that the electrode response to a particular pH changes as a function of temperature. I.e. the voltage from an electrode in pH 5 solution is higher at 80 ° than it is at 40 °. This is what the meter corrects for. If the meter has an 'isoelectric pH' other than 7 ATC will introduce an error. Modern electrodes are usually pretty good wrt to this but I have one that is not.

The other effect is that the actual pH changes with temperature. ATC does not compensate for this. It is best that all measurements and calibration be carried out at room temperature because of both these effects.

Gameface said:

I agree that 5.8 seems really high when I've been brewing for years and haven't had any major issues with my mash and my beers have generally turned out well. I was surprised to see that number.

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I'd bet on cal drift.

The 5.8 was immediately after cal. The meter is a HI-99151 and it says "Beer ph meter" on the front. But if my previous mash ph was 5.8 and I used 4.4% acidulated malt this time around then the numbers basically check out because this time my measure ph was 5.36. I'll calibrate before use on my next brew day, and I get that the numbers are suspicious. I'll be more prepared with an ice bath for my samples. I've had a pretty solid brew day routine and the ph testing is kind of an awkward fit at the moment. I'll get it worked out so it's a smoother operation.

Now the cal procedure is pretty simple. I go into cal mode and use the specified ph solution, then it beeps when it's done with that one and I put the probe in the next solution. When I have calibrated in the past the meter displays the correct ph for the solution once stable (before the beep), so to me that means that the cal was good going in. Is that not a correct assumption?

The question is 'how long does the meter hold the cal?' Inexpensive meters don't hold it long. You need to do a cal, then check both buffers again after 10 min, 20 min, 30 min..... The meter should still read the correct pH for the buffers. If it does not then recalibration may be necessary even after only a few minutes. This can be a real pain even though the calibration procedure is simple. The alternative, should you find this to be necessary, is to buy a more expensive meter.

ajdelange said:

The question is 'how long does the meter hold the cal?' Inexpensive meters don't hold it long. You need to do a cal, then check both buffers again after 10 min, 20 min, 30 min..... The meter should still read the correct pH for the buffers. If it does not then recalibration may be necessary even after only a few minutes. This can be a real pain even though the calibration procedure is simple. The alternative, should you find this to be necessary, is to buy a more expensive meter.

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Right, it seems to hold cal really well. I'll test it more...

No problem just checking cal by taking a reading from the cal solution instead of going through the cal procedure, is it?

ajdelange said:

The question is 'how long does the meter hold the cal?' Inexpensive meters don't hold it long. You need to do a cal, then check both buffers again after 10 min, 20 min, 30 min..... The meter should still read the correct pH for the buffers. If it does not then recalibration may be necessary even after only a few minutes. This can be a real pain even though the calibration procedure is simple. The alternative, should you find this to be necessary, is to buy a more expensive meter.

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It looks like a $275-300 meter, so I'd hope it performed at least decently.

Gameface said:

Right, it seems to hold cal really well. I'll test it more...

No problem just checking cal by taking a reading from the cal solution instead of going through the cal procedure, is it?

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That should work fine. You might also try some of the suggestions in the meter calibration sticky. For instance, are you rinsing with distilled water and then wicking off excess water before you take your actual reading (after having calibrated)?

Gameface said:

No problem just checking cal by taking a reading from the cal solution instead of going through the cal procedure, is it?

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That is exactly what you want to do. Recalibration wipes out the previous cal. What you want to do is check to see how long that cal is valid.