boozy twange off-flavor

Hey all,

i'm looking for a bit of help on my first 3 batches i've brewed. The first was a brown ale (extract), second was a india brown ale (extract) and the third was the same recipe although i made the iba via BIAB. it seems with all three that i've had an off-flavor that me being a newbie hadn't figured that it was a sign of something gone wrong. but i had let a buddy (that brews quite often) taste and he had stated the same think that i had pondered.

so, what is typical for giving the boozy twange? is this the same as someone calling it "fusel alcohol or nail polish"? my ferm temps were low (under 70, more like 66-68) and i can't pinpoint any one thing.

and if there's more input needed on my brewing just let me know.

thanks.

Are those ferm temps the ambient temperature or the temp of the actual beer? How long did you let it bottle condition?

drakerebel said:

Hey all,

i'm looking for a bit of help on my first 3 batches i've brewed. The first was a brown ale (extract), second was a india brown ale (extract) and the third was the same recipe although i made the iba via BIAB. it seems with all three that i've had an off-flavor that me being a newbie hadn't figured that it was a sign of something gone wrong. but i had let a buddy (that brews quite often) taste and he had stated the same think that i had pondered.

so, what is typical for giving the boozy twange? is this the same as someone calling it "fusel alcohol or nail polish"? my ferm temps were low (under 70, more like 66-68) and i can't pinpoint any one thing.

and if there's more input needed on my brewing just let me know.

thanks.

Click to expand...

66-68 Ambient Temps or Fermentation Temp? Your fermentation temp will come up 5-10 degrees during active fermentation. To battle this I use a swamp cooler.

Also, do you know anything about your water? Chlorine or Chloramine in tap water is not good for beer. And will give you a medicinal off flavor, which can come across as boozy. http://www.howtobrew.com/section4/chapter21-2.html. A good way to combat this is to crush up 1/2 a campden tablet (potassium metabisulfate(sp)) and add to brew water before heating up. Within minutes it will drive off all the chlorine/chloramine. I also filter my water, but before I bought a filter I was only using campden tabs and they work great.

Some people recommend brewing a batch with RO water, you can pick up at health food stores and organic markets, its usually pretty cheap $0.45 a gallon or something like that if you can find the places where you bring your own container and just fill it up. I know the Whole Foods and Mom's Organic markets in my area have the stations.

My temp was off of the temp strip on the carboy...it normally read 64-66 so I stated the higher due to the internal being warmer than the strip... but 10 degrees offset? That seems like a lot? I only accounted for a couple of degree difference I guess.

And I use bottled spring water. I have Camden tabs but didn't use due to non city water being used...correct?

And the room was dark also.

Everything else visually looked perfect about the brews.

If the temp strip is properly applied and accurate then it is measuring the fermentation and your stated temps were correct. They were just clearing up that the fermentation, and not the ambient room temperature.

I'm not sure but I'm under the impression (and I could be wrong) that fussel alcohols are not really what I would call (and language is subjective) "twang". I *think* fussel alcohols (if indeed it was fussel alcohol) more of a sharp alchohol taste (like vodka or rubbing alcohol) and *I* think of twang as ... well, more sort of stale and off, like orange juice that has been sitting in a cardboard carton too long compared to orange juice that is fresh. But I could be utterly mistaken in what is basically subjective language to describe an area which we don't have an adequate vocabulary for.

I've heard of (but never experienced) the "extract twang". Was number three extract? You said BIAB but then you also said "same recipe"...

woozy said:

If the temp strip is properly applied and accurate then it is measuring the fermentation and your stated temps were correct. They were just clearing up that the fermentation, and not the ambient room temperature.

I'm not sure but I'm under the impression (and I could be wrong) that fussel alcohols are not really what I would call (and language is subjective) "twang". I *think* fussel alcohols (if indeed it was fussel alcohol) more of a sharp alchohol taste (like vodka or rubbing alcohol) and *I* think of twang as ... well, more sort of stale and off, like orange juice that has been sitting in a cardboard carton too long compared to orange juice that is fresh. But I could be utterly mistaken in what is basically subjective language to describe an area which we don't have an adequate vocabulary for.

I've heard of (but never experienced) the "extract twang". Was number three extract? You said BIAB but then you also said "same recipe"...

Click to expand...

you may very well be describing this correctly and i'm not. what i taste and what the other guy had described was a "boozy" aftertaste. he noted it as a "nail polish or rubbing alcohol" note. it wasn't by all means horrible, just didn't seem like it should be there.

the 3rd batch was the india brown ale in an all grain batch (BIAB). the first (brown ale) only lasted a couple of months and didn't seem to clear out the off flavor. the 2nd and 3rd i have a good amount left of both and i was just going to let it ride and see if it got better but perhaps the alcohol note won't mellow out regardless?

i'd just like to know what's up with my batches and how i can fix the step where this is happening. as far as recipes, all 3 were formulated recipes from the lbhs.

maybe i'm adding yeast too early? i usually add when temp is 70-80ish and maybe i ended up having it too high when pitching (inadverntantly)? i'll keep that in check for the next batch.

i also end up putting more wort in the primary than maybe the next guy. i try and leave the really gunky stuff in the pot but i've thought that i can just have the crud settle when transferring to the secondary. and i have always let the primary go for 2weeks before transferring...not thinking that it's been too long.

i'm just trying to figure out what all batches have in common.

Also, how fresh is your extract? A lot of the extract "twang" people talk about is from older extract, it oxidizes over time. If you are using LME try switching to DME. DME is much more stable and has a better shelf life.

What yeast are you using? What is your pitch rate?

Have you ruled out infection?

Hot," nail-polish-like flavours are usually an indication of overly-high fermentation temperatures. It sounds like you were within the right range, with the exception of the initial pitch. I'm not sure that alone would be enough to produce such off-flavours, but it is something you can pay a little more attention to on your next batch.

How did you aerate? What kind of yeast was it? How was it prepared before pitching (Starter? Rehydrated?)? It sounds like the yeast were stressed, one way or another.

hmm...well the first was wyeast 1056, just pitched after it was smacked a day or so prior (verified inflating)
the second was wyeast london 1028, made starter (w/dme) after inflating the smackpack, again everything looked good to what i read
the third was washed yeast from the prior cake of 1028 (above), and again it looked like the 2nd starter and all should've been good?

and for the "off-flavors" i wish there was a way to have a better indication of what these were instead of someone's verbal explanation (nail polish? i can't imagine tasting nail polish...lol)...to me it seems "boozy" and not as "mellow or balanced". and i like my ipa's for sure so it isn't like i'm against a higher ibu brew, plus the first was a slightly hopped brown (although extract). the carbonation was definitely there (used the 5oz as given) and they produced nice lacing...maybe overcarbed?...i'll try the trick of double pouring but i'm not holding my breath.

hmm, well i have a chinook ipa in the primary now with a 1ga batch of another ipa so i'll see how those turn out and if the same flavor is present. is there anything that i can pickup from a sample when i transfer? i have an oatmeal stout that i'm brewing up during the ipa secondary so i won't know finished product for awhile. i will most definitely watch my pitching temp but otherwise i'm a little in the dark as to what's up.

thanks for all who's chimed in. and by all means, if you have suggestions i'm all ears.

Well, tried another that's been cooled for a couple days. I'm getting the "hot" notes at the end that people speak of...I think? It tastes decent but doesn't have a mellow finish...maybe "nail polish"?

Don't you wish they offered bad beer tastings?

"here's an impudent little number. Note the subtle fussel back tone reminiscent of Revlon nail polish remover that finishes with a inpleasant hot taste."

drakerebel said:

Well, tried another that's been cooled for a couple days. I'm getting the "hot" notes at the end that people speak of...I think? It tastes decent but doesn't have a mellow finish...maybe "nail polish"?

Click to expand...

Have you ever smelled nail polish remover? Often, that's the smell we're talking about (acetone).

do any of these flavors describe what you're tasting? http://www.howtobrew.com/section4/chapter21-2.html

Many of the off flavors in beer are produced early in the fermentation so your pitching the yeast at upper 70's may be the cause. Some of us have found that chilling below the optimal fermentation temperature for pitching and letting the beer warm up gets us better flavors but a slower start.

Well, i think i'm going to go forward thinking that my questionable flavor is likely related to pitching temps...can't think of another reasonable excuse. It's too bad i have one already fermenting, although i did cool to known upper 60's. I think on my oatmeal stout upcoming this weekend that i'll perhaps cool to 55-60 and then let it ride to room temp of 63...problem solved hopefully.

But Woozy, i'm totally with you on having a sampling of off-flavors. And maybe it's simply how they describe in words but i've not been able to place a finger on this...maybe too subtle and i'm being overcritical but i had another to say the same... I wish there'd be a sample stick test that you could place in a beer and have it impose that flavor to it...maybe they already do?

RM-MN said:

Many of the off flavors in beer are produced early in the fermentation so your pitching the yeast at upper 70's may be the cause. Some of us have found that chilling below the optimal fermentation temperature for pitching and letting the beer warm up gets us better flavors but a slower start.

Click to expand...

I second this. Pitch cooler and hold at cooler temps, low 60s. Unless you're brewing a saison in which case, go nuts with warm temps. You get amazing results with hot fermentation using saison and some belgian yeasts.

If it tastes boozy that would be too high a fermentation temp. But I doubt it. You'd have to have that ferm temp way up in the low 70s ambient to get off flavors with 1056 yeast. 1056 is a tough yeast.

Are you sure it's not an astringent aroma or taste ? Some times astringent can be confused for booze or nail polish? You mentioned using spring water so I am wondering if the water wasnt hard enough. You were brewing an Indian brown ale so you want to make sure there is a good dose of gypsum added. Otherwise it could come off astringent if the water is alkaline. Hoppy browns always need gypsum.

Ah, you may indeed have a point. That's common to every beer I've made is that store bought spring water. I didn't think to test it yet since going off the "if its tastes good to drink then its ok" mentality...good idea.

I have an IPA that I'll bottle in a couple weeks so I'll know any difference then but I'll be doing my first oatmeal stout this weekend...ideas on what water to buy that's solid off the shelf? I can get test strips and look into modifying my water but this purchased water thing is only temporary until my filter unit is hooked up to my well/hard water (long term).

Thx.

Another thought as I read through these posts. You might want to try and use Reverse Osmosis water or Distilled Water and build your water up. The reason I say this is spring water, is well from a spring. It could have a bunch of minerals etc, <<insert correct chemistry jargon>> that might throw off the water and make it not the best to brew with.