Southern Tier Pumking Clone??

Well I can safely say that this is a very delicious beer. I cracked the first one open yesterday, and shared with 2 others; we reached consensus. I used the recipe based on pg. 20. It is also evident that this is in no way a clone of ST Pumpking. I had one side by side. The color is right on, but there is definitely not the graham cracker, vanilla, or much cinnamon in the ST beer. That being said, I am really enjoying all of those flavors in this beer; the vanilla compliments it very well. Oak would only enhance this even more. I used a full tsp of the Graham cracker extract; thankfully I have not detected any of the metallic or other off flavors that others have noted.

For what it's worth, I feel the actual clone might need less to none of the Victory, more of some kind of crystal/caramel malt, and a mash temp of 156-158. I would also drop the extract, vanilla, and add some more of all of the spices (for a clone, that is).

Thank you all who have helped this process along. I will continue to enjoy the fruits of your labor this fall.

I was going to go with 15 lbs of two row and 3/4 lb crystal 50/60L. That is basically what others have recommended in here. Going with 1tsp of nutmeg, all spice, and pumpkin spice. I think I will add some butter vanilla extract. I also have fresh butternut squash instead of pumpkin in the mash. I'm going with a mash temp of 158* F.

The hops since I don't have what I need I'm going with 1/2 oz chinock and 1/2 oz perle.

I had a bomber of this beer on Friday. Without a doubt the single worst beer I have ever had. I don't see how anyone could possibly like the one I had. Spiced beyond all belief, with a wretched, tongue-raking flavor. Do they have quality control issues? I know that keeping pumpkin beers consistent is tough, I have had some good and some pretty bad Punkin Ales.

jakesz28 said:

I'm giving this a go today. Kind of using my own recipe based of the sum of these. 95% two row and 5% ctystal 50/60* L, because that's what I have. The worst part is out of the 10 pounds or so of hops I have I don't have the ones listed in this thread. So not sure what I'm going to use yet. Any thoughts for a substitute for magnum and sterling? I don't have saaz either.

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Supposedly Lublin for Sterling and Horizon or Newport for Magnum.

At least according to this http://www.brew365.com/hop_substitution_chart.php

I just kegged mine. Based on page 20 recipe with a few changes. WLP002 English Ale, 32oz of canned pumpkin in the mash, 1lb of honey malt, mashed at 156, no lactose, Goldings and Northern brewer hops (what I had). 2 cinnamon stick in boil and 1tbs candied ginger, 1/4 tsp allspice, 1/4 tsp fresh nutmeg, 1/2 lb demerara sugar 1/2 lb light brown sugar. 3 vanilla beans in secondary,1 tsp pumpkin pie spice blend, 7 drops of graham cracker extract in 5g.
I like it. Not quite ST, but in the ballpark and a very nice spiced beer with a beautiful color. Would like a little more sweetness but I cant tolerate lactose. The mash and yeast enhance the breadiness and left some sweetness (fg 1.013), and I think muted some of the spices.
I would make this again with a little more spice.

rexbanner said:

I had a bomber of this beer on Friday. Without a doubt the single worst beer I have ever had. I don't see how anyone could possibly like the one I had. Spiced beyond all belief, with a wretched, tongue-raking flavor. Do they have quality control issues? I know that keeping pumpkin beers consistent is tough, I have had some good and some pretty bad Punkin Ales.

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Thank god at least there is one less person drinking up my beer!!

Brewed a partial mash version of this on Sunday using Cannondale's recipe with 10 lbs Alexanders pale malt extract in place of the 2 row. Did 3 lbs of Libby's canned pumpkin coated in orange blossom honey and brown sugar baked at 350 for 45 minutes. I also subbed the Wyeast 1469 Yorkshire a la TyTanium. I'm debating the graham cracker or vanilla butternut extracts, though those seem risky. I am however expecting my first 5 gallon oak barrel as a gift, of which I do think I will make this beer's home for a week or so...

Cool. I'm loving the Yorkshire yeast. Hope you do too!

PoconoParadiso said:

Brewed a partial mash version of this on Sunday using Cannondale's recipe with 10 lbs Alexanders pale malt extract in place of the 2 row. Did 3 lbs of Libby's canned pumpkin coated in orange blossom honey and brown sugar baked at 350 for 45 minutes. I also subbed the Wyeast 1469 Yorkshire a la TyTanium. I'm debating the graham cracker or vanilla butternut extracts, though those seem risky. I am however expecting my first 5 gallon oak barrel as a gift, of which I do think I will make this beer's home for a week or so...

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You'll be OK adding the extracts. Just be VERY careful. Add them by the drop if you have to. I added mainly the butter nut, but also put 5-6 drops of graham cracker in as well. The good thing is that the spices dominate the taste, so it takes a bit of effort to really ruin it.

Is this normal? I made 12 gallons so I was going to add 4 vanilla beans to the secondary. I only let them sit in about 2 ounces (maybe) of vodka with the ground cinnamon, and I took a look at it today (after about a week or so) and it looked like there was a blob in it, so I reached in and found this???? WTF? I didn't sanitize anything because I figured the vodka would do that, but there isn't any way I'm dumping any of this nastiness in my beer!!!

That is not a full bean btw... I chopped up and split all the beans before adding to con and vodka... It has the consistency of flubber!

stblindtiger said:

Is this normal? I made 12 gallons so I was going to add 4 vanilla beans to the secondary. I only let them sit in about 2 ounces (maybe) of vodka with the ground cinnamon, and I took a look at it today (after about a week or so) and it looked like there was a blob in it, so I reached in and found this???? WTF? I didn't sanitize anything because I figured the vodka would do that, but there isn't any way I'm dumping any of this nastiness in my beer!!!

That is not a full bean btw... I chopped up and split all the beans before adding to con and vodka... It has the consistency of flubber!

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You do realize that alcohol breaks down the vanilla bean, right? Mine looked kinda disgusting, but if it's been sitting in vodka, there is absolutely no way in hell that anything bad grew in it. It's just not possible.

Also, your picture is way out of focus and your hand is blocking most of the view. I can't even tell what you're holding up because it's too fuzzy.

Are these any better?


It looks like a big brown snot... With chunks of vanilla in it. I realize the vodka would break it down but this is the second time I did this and I don't remember a snot like formation the last time I did this???

Maybe 2 weeks broke down the beans and they began to gelatinize?

The vodka melted the plastic spice cup

HopSpunge said:

The vodka melted the plastic spice cup

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Nope, I had the same substance in mine and I used glass. It must be a vegetative sheath inside the bean that's breaking down.

stblindtiger said:

Is this normal? I made 12 gallons so I was going to add 4 vanilla beans to the secondary. I only let them sit in about 2 ounces (maybe) of vodka with the ground cinnamon, and I took a look at it today (after about a week or so) and it looked like there was a blob in it, so I reached in and found this???? WTF? I didn't sanitize anything because I figured the vodka would do that, but there isn't any way I'm dumping any of this nastiness in my beer!!!

That is not a full bean btw... I chopped up and split all the beans before adding to con and vodka... It has the consistency of flubber!

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It's not the vanilla, it's the cinnamon. And, you probably don't have cinnamon; you likely have cassia, otherwise known as "bastard cinnamon". In the US, cassia can be legally marketed as cinnamon, though they are different animals.

I have not experienced this sliming thing, but another person who brewed a recipe of mine said it got very slimey after the boil. The recipe had WAY too much cinnamon in it (I got oz and tsp mixed up!). I think it was undrinkable. I'm guessing it was the "imitation" cinnamon that caused him, and probably you, the problem.

Use google and see if you can find any further info on this. The two barks look different, by the way they curl, but I don't know how to help you find the real cinnamon in the powder form.

ErieShores said:

Nope, I had the same substance in mine and I used glass. It must be a vegetative sheath inside the bean that's breaking down.

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Did you use the infused vodka in yours? Also, did you strain out the snot like stuff or just add everything? How did the beer turn out?

To be honest, the liquid doesn't taste bad... I may just strain out the nasty snot like stuff. Especially if it's just the cassia. It almost reminds of a Kombucha like structure/tea...

stblindtiger said:

Did you use the infused vodka in yours? Also, did you strain out the snot like stuff or just add everything? How did the beer turn out?

To be honest, the liquid doesn't taste bad... I may just strain out the nasty snot like stuff. Especially if it's just the cassia. It almost reminds of a Kombucha like structure/tea...

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No vodka, I used rum. I happen to know for a FACT that they soak their spices in 151, that's the only bit of information I have for sure. I used a filter from my Cuisinart coffee maker to filter. I used the recipe from pg 20 and I'll have to admit, although it's a good pumpkin beer it is absolutely not Pumking. I was at the brewery this summer and they are tight lipped about their process. STBC is becoming the Wonka of brewing.

Just for fun, here's a lil comparison pic. Let's just say the color is a lot closer than the flavor. Pumking vs page 20 "clone".

Cracked my first bottle after 8 days, it's pretty frikin good. I chose not to pay $12 for Pumking this year so I can't compare but I'd say it's pretty close to what I remember. I'm happy because I thought the extract was going to ruin this batch like some here have said, not the case for me. I went a but heavy on the candied ginger and used two vanilla beans and the original said amount of 1tsp Graham Cracker extract. Three weeks primary and three weeks secondary.

My own attempt is bubbling away in the fermenter now, we brewed it last night under a harvest moon. I guess technically it isn't really a clone attempt, but it is Pumking clone inspired. It's my LHBS pumpkin ale recipe with TyTanium's Pumking spice mix and Wyeast Yorkshire strain, plus hop schedule modifications. I also just ordered some of the Vanilla Butter Nut flavoring and we will experiment with that before bottling time.

I had 10 lbs of sugar pie pumpkins, but only got 4 lbs of roasted meat out of them. Live and learn for next time. Still, the wort was bright orange and smelled and tasted strongly of pumpkin. We'll see how much is left after fermentation. The spices were extremely subdued, though. I feel like I should have added them earlier, or perhaps not bothered straining out the cold break and pumpkin bits, which I am sure captured a lot of the ground spices too. If it still tastes light on spices after a week in the fermenter, I will add some 151-soaked spices for the second week.

That McCormick product is not stocked anywhere around me, so I had to order a 6-pack online for about $30 shipped. I hope it's good!

KingBrianI said:

Why are you guys still screwing around with the graham cracker extract? That's not the stuff. I'm telling you, someone just try what I mentioned previously in the below quoted post and you will be there. Just remember to GO LIGHT"!

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skeezerpleezer said:

So are you saying that you have made a clone using your method and it was spot on? Or are you still screwing around with whether or not to brew it and provide confirmation?

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KingBrianI said:

The beer is brewed and set to be kegged this weekend. Not a pumking clone but an imperialized version of my samhain pumpkin ale recipe. I'll be adding 1/4 teaspoon of the vanilla butter and nut extract at kegging. I'll report back on those results in a couple weeks, but until then its no big thing for people to grab a couple dollar bottle of the stuff to test out themselves on their next trip to the grocery store. That should be all the confirmation they need if their palate is halfway decent.

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Alright, so I'm drinking an early sample of my beer and I'm ready to report preliminary results. I need to pick up a bottle of Pumking to try side by side with this beer, but I can give a quick update now. Remember, I brewed an imperialized version of my Samhain Pumpkin Ale recipe, not an attempted Pumking Clone, though I was using the extract to try to get that malty/"cap'n crunch"y character that Pumking has.

Anyway, what you guys are calling the graham cracker character and I'm calling "cap'n crunch" character is very similar between this beer and Pumking. I ended up going with 1/8 teaspoon of the McCormick Vanilla Butter and Nut extract, and for a corny keg, I think it is right on. Maybe slightly less than what Pumking has, but I like it at this level. My beer doesn't have the ginger flavor I got from Pumking this year, but that pie crusty flavor is right on. My kegerator is set at 40 degrees and upon serving, the pie crust character is lighter on the nose than Pumking. The flavor is right there though, and as it warms, the pie crusty aroma grows to almost the level of Pumking. My beer is very different from Pumking in other ways (more complex maltiness, more body, more pumpkin flavor, different spice profile, darker color), but when it comes to the pie crust character, this beer is very similar.

So if you want to brew a Pumking clone, my recommendation is to use a flavorsome US 2-row and enough crystal 60 to hit the right color. Aim for 8.5% or so ABV, add a little pumpkin to the mash, bitter low, ferment clean, add about a teaspoon of ginger at the end of the boil, and add 1/8 teaspoon of the vanilla butter and nut extract at packaging. That will probably be closer to the real Pumking than anything posted in here so far. Good luck!

EDIT: By the way, if any of you guys live near Durham, NC and want to try this beer, let me know. I know it's hard to believe some random dude on the internet (look at the recipe they came up with so far!), but if I can get someone to taste this, they'll be able to confirm my assertions. Alternatively, if any of you brew a beer and add 1/8 teaspoon of the vanilla butter and nut extract, please post your results so everyone can share in our discovery.

KingBrianI said:

Alright, so I'm drinking an early sample of my beer and I'm ready to report preliminary results. I need to pick up a bottle of Pumking to try side by side with this beer, but I can give a quick update now. Remember, I brewed an imperialized version of my Samhain Pumpkin Ale recipe, not an attempted Pumking Clone, though I was using the extract to try to get that malty/"cap'n crunch"y character that Pumking has.

Anyway, what you guys are calling the graham cracker character and I'm calling "cap'n crunch" character is very similar between this beer and Pumking. I ended up going with 1/8 teaspoon of the McCormick Vanilla Butter and Nut extract, and for a corny keg, I think it is right on. Maybe slightly less than what Pumking has, but I like it at this level. My beer doesn't have the ginger flavor I got from Pumking this year, but that pie crusty flavor is right on. My kegerator is set at 40 degrees and upon serving, the pie crust character is lighter on the nose than Pumking. The flavor is right there though, and as it warms, the pie crusty aroma grows to almost the level of Pumking. My beer is very different from Pumking in other ways (more complex maltiness, more body, more pumpkin flavor, different spice profile, darker color), but when it comes to the pie crust character, this beer is very similar.

So if you want to brew a Pumking clone, my recommendation is to use a flavorsome US 2-row and enough crystal 60 to hit the right color. Aim for 8.5% or so ABV, add a little pumpkin to the mash, bitter low, ferment clean, add about a teaspoon of ginger at the end of the boil, and add 1/8 teaspoon of the vanilla butter and nut extract at packaging. That will probably be closer to the real Pumking than anything posted in here so far. Good luck!

EDIT: By the way, if any of you guys live near Durham, NC and want to try this beer, let me know. I know it's hard to believe some random dude on the internet (look at the recipe they came up with so far!), but if I can get someone to taste this, they'll be able to confirm my assertions. Alternatively, if any of you brew a beer and add 1/8 teaspoon of the vanilla butter and nut extract, please post your results so everyone can share in our discovery.

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I pretty much brewed your suggestion this weekend. 15lbs of 2-row, 2lbs of Crystal 60; OG = 1.096. 1 can Libby pumpkin baked at 350 for just over an hour. 20 IBUs. 1.5 tsp of pumpkin pie spice at flameout, will add more to secondary if it needs it. WY1028 London Ale yeast (I wanted to try the Yorkshire but couldn't get it on short notice). I also plan on picking up the Vanilla Butter and Nut extract to add at bottling. I haven't had the real Pumking, so I can't compare but I think this will turn out to be a delicious imperial pumpkin ale.

Lots of different ideas in this thread. I tried an attempt sort of like the recipe gwdlaw posted on page 20, although I used different amounts of various ingredients (and my wife got me the biggest cinderella pumpkin they had at Whole Foods, so I cubed up the entire thing and mashed it). One thing is certain...the primary smells like pumpkin pie or pumpkin bread. Hopefully by the time this stuff is ready, the spices won't be quite so forward, but it does smell rather pleasant

I tested and tasted my brew last night after 4 days fermentation. I was using TyTanium's suggested spices and Wyeast strain on top of malts and hops from a LHBS recipe.

First off, the krausen was insanely thick... it was like having a few inches of whipped cream cheese on top of the beer! Good pumpkin aroma and taste, but definitely less strong than it was in the wort. It was very hard to see around the green apple flavor of young beer, but it didn't seem like the spices were coming through enough, or at all. I think that not enough spice flavor made it into the wort, and when I strained out the goop on the way into the bucket, the cloves etc. got strained out too so they did not continue to work. So, I will prepare another spice addition this weekend and chuck them into the fermenter.

Awesome. If you can, raise the temp on the tail end of fermentation (sounds like you're there) to help it finish & clean up. .I started at 64 and raised to ~70ish.

The spices are where I like them (subtle), but I agree...may need more to be a true clone. After 3 weeks in the bottle, mine have faded significantly, especially the ginger & nutmeg.

Scoop up that cottage cheese krausen and save it! Great strain for top-cropping.

My temperature control is still pretty crude, haven't built a chamber yet. Do you think it would be better to keep the fermenter in the low-to-mid 60s, or put it in a room that swings from approx 70-74? Those are the two choices I have currently.

Good to hear how your spice profile has changed in the bottle, btw. I wonder how the commercial breweries stabilize their flavors? Something like Pumking certainly doesn't change if I leave a bottle sitting around for 3 weeks. (Or does it?)

I had to look up top-cropping... looks like fun but for now I will just be buying new yeast packs, unless I overlap batches. Maybe once the chamber project is done I will turn to yeast ranching.

Did you test your gravity last night? You're probably in the 20s and safe to warm up.

As for stabilizing, it doesn't fade that quickly in the bottle. My comparisons were 4-day-old still-fermenting beer to finished & carbed beer...so I'm sure they increase the spice amounts so their ideal amount makes it into the bottle.

I'll have to check my notes... gravity is in the 20s if not the teens, though.

Is the 20s a good rule of thumb for boosting temperature? (This could save me starting a new thread about my hefeweizen, which is at +12 days in the fermenter and probably done at 1.014... but still kept at around 66F.)

(Re spices: understood!)

Yeah, I think so...the bulk of flavor creation is done and focused on cleaning up, attenuating, etc. But a 1.014 hefe sounds like it's just fine at 66F.

I'd hafta say the Graham cracker extract does leave a slightly metallic taste, not a drain pour but it's there.

sivdrinks said:

I'd hafta say the Graham cracker extract does leave a slightly metallic taste, not a drain pour but it's there.

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How much did you add to a 5.5gal batch?

cotillion said:

How much did you add to a 5.5gal batch?

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1 tsp, the aroma is great though. I'd start with 1/3 or half or just mash with Graham crackers next time.

sivdrinks said:

I'd hafta say the Graham cracker extract does leave a slightly metallic taste, not a drain pour but it's there.

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Yup, I strongly urge everybody considering Graham Cracker Extract to first try it on a sample, and test against the same beer without it. Easiest way is with a couple 1-liter PET bottles and a carbonator cap. I can't imagine how anyone would say it's better with the Graham Cracker extract.

I kegged this beer recently and its not a clone of pumking, I left out the graham cracker extract. I left it out because it was tough to drink and would hurt my stomach in the few samples I tried it in. I do agree the aroma was really nice from the extract but the flavor was poor. My beer i would consider heavily spiced but not too overwhelming, not much similarities in the pumking.

I've been searching high and low for the vanilla butter & nut extract with no luck. I've found a lifetime supply of it on Amazon for $30 shipped, but I'm not about to take that route. However, I've read that you can make your own using vanilla, almond, and butter extracts, which are all easily obtainable. I'm going to go ahead and try to mix some up, and add a little to one of my pumpkin beers that I've already bottled (Yuri's Thunderstruck Pumpkin Ale) to see how similar that flavor is to Pumking. I urge anybody that's considering to use the graham cracker extract to be very cautious. Definitely do not use anywhere near a full tsp as called for in the recipe from page 20, if any at all.

Just another user's review of Capella graham cracker. Complete waste. Don't waste your time.

sfrisby said:

Just another user's review of Capella graham cracker. Complete waste. Don't waste your time.

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I bought this graham cracker extract, but I'm mixing it into a cheesecake this thanksgiving. Doesn't sound like a good fit for this recipe.

I have plans to ruin my next attempt at a ST Pumking with hazelnut extract. I've still got bombers of last years attempt, so I probably won't tackle this until Jan/Feb.

I have had my pumpkin in the keg for three weeks and the metallic after taste of the gram cracker extract hasn't diminished. I am probably going to dump the keg.

Just a thought, has anyone attempted to use pumpkin seeds in the mash? Don't they have a nutty quality to them that may contribute to that Pumking flavor?