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BWRIGHT

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Yes, I'm serious. Now, it will only be one, but it will be free. I have posted probably 4 or 5 threads about St. Peter's English (Organic) Ale. It's an English ale, pale ale I beilieve. I live in IN and its hard to find around here. Nobody knows much about it from what I can gather. Or, if they do they haven't seen my posts. I want to replicate this beer very badly. I want to at least get close. The probelm is I don't have the knowledge of ingredients that some people on here do. I know there are a handful of people out there that would be able to taste this and be able to "deconstruct" it. So, if that is you I'll send you one and you tell me what you think. Here is what I know.

http://homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=60938

My best guess is that this beer is a SMaSH or very close to it. The malt and the hop character are simple but work together very well. I also have reason to believe that their water may be unique. But like I said before, I don't know anything about replicating from taste so anyone that can SERIOUSLY give this a try let me know.
 
Is this AG, PM, or extract? I have never tasted it but I am sure we can get a recipe for you. It's weird because they claim traditional English Hops in their site, but then state they use the New Zealand Hallertau. I can get you my AG interpretation if you want to then convert it.
 
Hell its not a contest. I just want to find someone who can actually do this instead of someone who wants a quality beer for free.
 
Zoe, this will be AG. I would appreciate your interpretation, but how can you pull that off if you haven't tasted it? I was confused about the hop situation myself. I got an email back from someone at St. Peter's and she used the word "Hallertan." I have no idea. I do know that it has a pretty strong hop taste but not much of the bitterness. So, I would think most of the additions are late.
 
Zoe, this will be AG. I would appreciate your interpretation, but how can you pull that off if you haven't tasted it? I was confused about the hop situation myself. I got an email back from someone at St. Peter's and she used the word "Hallertan." I have no idea. I do know that it has a pretty strong hop taste but not much of the bitterness. So, I would think most of the additions are late.

Hehe. I am pretty good at interpretation, and I can garner key items from reviews of the beer. I am thinking they have a very good punch of flavor addition. It is the Hallertau from NZ, they change their tune for several brews. They have a very specific water profile which sounds very high in Carbonate. That will be key to reproducing what you are after. You'd most likely have to do several renditions to get it as close as possible is my guess. We can do that over time ;).
 
Yeah, I don't know why but I feel that the water is different somehow. This beer is just very "clean" tasting. I can't put my finger on it. That's why I'm here. My inclination is that it has a very simple grain profile or that is a SMaSH. Maybe all Marris Otter?
 
Hmm I don't think so, the color wouldn't fit. I am guessing some Biscuit malt. You are right though, probably a solid single malt background.
 
If we can narrow down the Maltster, that would be really beneficial. It is supposedly malt from the "soil association" coming from Norfolk. If we can get the characteristics of that Malt then it will help tremendously.
 
An English pale ale will most certainly require the addtion of Burton salts. Unless you can get water from Burton-on-Trent.
 
I have lots of St Peters brews available, I love them but I've never tried the organic English. I'll be picking one up on the drive home, methinks. :)
 
I doubt it's a SMaSH beer. By the tasting descriptions on BeerAdvocate, it has a lot of complexity:

"the taste of fresh grain is rich and unmistakable, and even though it's only barley, i could call out a half dozen grain flavors that are all being produced by ONE organic malt. stunning. one of my favorite things about organic foods is that they take on characteristics of the soil they were grown in, rather than the chemical fertilizers that were used. this pale ale is an excellent example of that effect. earthy, grainy, with such a nice pale and toasted cereal flavor as well as some toasted sunflower seeds, sesame, oats, and mineral water. tangerine citrus hops are creamy and floral as they hide in the back letting the malt win out in the balance with only a slight edge. the finish is neutral and mildly tropical fruity bitter with plenty of that delicious malted grain and some tart natural banana taste. outstanding"

Others really noted the stronger than usual (for an English PA) hops presences. I'm guessing it was a higher OG with less attenuation to keep the malt, and a very good dose of 60 ant 5 minutes hops...probably a combo of Fuggles and EKG.

I'm thinking a good pinch of biscuit malt, a touch of aromatic and maybe some invert sugar to get what people described as a "caramel sweetness" like Old Speckled Hen.

You have me intrigued. I'm going to have to check out the local shops to see if it's available. The bottle did not look familiar though.

[EDIT] - I just found where they use Target hops (organic of course) :)
 
Yeah, if you read my link there is quite a bit of differing opinions. Their website says Halleratu and someone from St. Peter's emailed me back and confirmed that it was "Hallertan." I hope you're wrong about the Old Speckled Hen. I think its the yeast they use, but still that is one beer I just can't stomach. Also, the English Ale and Organic Ale are the same thing. One is a relabeled export.
 
Hallertan isn't a variety of hop. Hallertau is. Typo on their end, I betcha.
 
For info, the Soil Association doesn't make malt. It's a sort of regulatory body that goes around the country promoting good practice and awarding its charter mark to organisations that have good practice in food production. That said, I'm sure they'd have a list of all the maltsters they endorse, so an email to them (www.soilassociation.org) might help track down the maltster, and thus the malt.

I'm sure Chriso's right that "Hallertan" is a typo, presumably from an office worker who doesn't know that much about beer. As I said in the other thread, NZ Hallertau would seem to fit the flavor descriptions of the beer. Might see if I can pick up a bottle of this on the way home this evening.

[EDIT:] Actually, from a search of the producers' directory on the Soil Association website, I'd hazard a guess that they get their malt from Warminster (as zoebisch01 says) and their organic NZ Hallertau from Botanix (www.botanix.co.uk). From the same directory (http://www.soilassociation.org/web/...ines / Spirits&cat2=Brewing Ingredients&area=), Warminster seem to offer the following grains: caramalt, crystal, Munich, chocolate malt, and the annoyingly vague "pale ale malt". I'd guess that the Organic Ale is made from mostly pale ale malt with a dollop of Munich.

Anyone have any ideas about what yeast to use?
 
Is there such a thing as "organic" yeast? Or is all yeast, by nature, organic?

Either way. If it were my project, I'd do one of a couple things: 1) Pick Notty and run with it. If it's not 100% accurate, well, then you still have a tasty ale, and you can try a different yeast the next time you brew it. 2) Try White Labs Burton Ale Yeast. It's delicious. Makes a fantastic Hobgoblin, I'd assume it'd make a really good English Pale too. 3) Try Safale S-04. It's got a very nice English profile, and again, if it's not spot-on it should still be tasty.

Kinda like my Pyramid Apricot clone, you just gotta wing it, and see how close you get - because you won't know what to "fix" till you've tried it once to see what's "broken".
 
3) Try Safale S-04. It's got a very nice English profile, and again, if it's not spot-on it should still be tasty.

I was going to suggest S-04 to start, partly because I just really like that strain...but I think it would work quite well. I think the backbone is that light Pale Ale malt (which has an SRM value a little bit higher than 2), probably some Biscuit and some medium crystal. The NZ Hallertau is around AAU of 7, I have used it before for bittering.

Here's what I have so far:

Batch size 5.125 (I always make just a touch more for losses)
Target OG 1.057
Target FG: 1.014
Target IBU: 36 (I am using leaf in the calculations)
Target Color: 10 Lovibond

Pale Ale Malt: This is the trick, finding one that light that suits (Golden Promise? It should be close to 2 Lovibond). 8.5 lb
Crystal 40: 0.75 lb
Biscuit (25 Lovibond): 0.333 lb ( I struggled with adding this because it is not on the list, but I am fairly certain they use it from the descriptions)

NZ Hallertau: 60 1.00 oz @ 7 AAU
NZ Hallertau: 15 1.5 oz @ 7 AAU
NZ Hallertau: 5 0.5 oz @ 7 AAU

Adjust water with Carbonate or use Burton Salts
Mash @ 152, single infusion
S-04. ( Another candidate looks like 1028 as it is described as 'minerally' and I found a reference to noticeable Diacetyl production)
Ferment temp?? I am saying go higher because there appears to be Diacetyl just at threshold levels, or underpitch.

I am only saying NZ Hallertau because that's what they declared....but they also say 'Citrus Hops' in another place :D
 
Hey cool I found someone using the NZ Hallertau and look at the description:

"Flavour Characteristics: Lagers traditionally were made in Germany. Speights summit Lager is a - NZ premium Lager (taxonomic class). Made from all natural ingredients - aka no enzymes or preservatives just water (from the best drinking source in Dunedin!!- our bore), malt, hops, yeast and primings sugar. It is made from Lager and Munich malts - with the Munich malt providing a delicate biscuity flavour and contributing to the beers lush golden hue. The Pacific Hallertau hops, are a New Zealand derivative of the noble Hallertau hop (from the German Hallertau region) - New Zealand hops are well sort after as they are generally spray free as we don’t have the Northern Hemisphere pests. New Zealand soil also gives rise to a distinct flavour difference - in the Lager the hops provide hints of citrus and floral notes. Keen noses can pick up an orange marmalade aroma. Overall, this beer drinkability is high (personal assessment from the launch) - with a smooth well rounded mouth feel (from the primings addition-also adds sweetness) and aftertaste."

source
 
Batch size 5.125 (I always make just a touch more for losses)
Target OG 1.057
Target FG: 1.014
Target IBU: 36 (I am using leaf in the calculations)
Target Color: 10 Lovibond

Pale Ale Malt: This is the trick, finding one that light that suits (Golden Promise? It should be close to 2 Lovibond). 8.5 lb
Crystal 40: 0.75 lb
Biscuit (25 Lovibond): 0.33 lb ( I struggled with adding this because it is not on the list, but I am fairly certain they use it from the descriptions)

NZ Hallertau: 60 1.00 oz @ 7 AAU
NZ Hallertau: 15 1.5 oz @ 7 AAU
NZ Hallertau: 5 0.5 oz @ 7 AAU

Adjust water with Carbonate or use Burton Salts
Mash @ 152, single infusion
That looks good. I think the S-04 makes sense for yeast. It makes good beer, and given that we don't know exactly what yeast St Peters use, there's no point spending money on a specific liquid yeast when there's equally good and much cheaper dried yeast available.

Golden Promise would make a great beer, although in this case I wonder whether Maris Otter wouldn't work better? It's a little less sweet, but also I believe the UK organic barleys like Plumage Archer are more closely related to MO than GP. I have no idea whether this family-tree proximity means the flavors are the same, but I'm sure either way it'd be good.

From the tasting description of the organic NZ Hallertau I remember citrus being mentioned, so I think they'd be the hops to try. [EDIT: Ah, you found a similar description too. All the more reason to go with them, I guess!]
 
Golden Promise would make a great beer, although in this case I wonder whether Maris Otter wouldn't work better? It's a little less sweet, but also I believe the UK organic barleys like Plumage Archer are more closely related to MO than GP.

I am not sure because if the maltster is the one from the soil thing then the only one they list is very light in color, around 2.125 Lovibond. Most MO I have seen is 4.5 or 5.0, like TF&S. Maybe Halcyon? I am not sure, I haven't used either GP or Halcyon, just going by what seems to fit the color.
 
I am not sure because if the maltster is the one from the soil thing then the only one they list is very light in color, around 2.125 Lovibond. Most MO I have seen is 4.5 or 5.0, like TF&S. Maybe Halcyon? I am not sure, I haven't used either GP or Halcyon, just going by what seems to fit the color.
Hmm. It's a thorny one, alright. According to the Wiki - https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Malts_Chart - MO is listed at 3 lovibond and GP at 2, so you're right, it may well be a better choice for color. That said, I've just checked with the place I get my grains from. Their standard MO is listed at 5, as are their other malts - Golden Promise, Halycon, Optic and Pearl. The only exception is that they do a pale version of MO, listed at 3, as per the Wiki. I guess there must be some variation depending on crop, location, conditions etc., so maybe BWright could check what grains are available, and see if any fit the bill?
 
You all have been busy since last night. I'll have to check and see what grains I have available. I've been wanting to try a beer that was heavily MO, but I want to duplicate this one as well. I was very dissapointed last night. I drove 25 miles to the only liquor store I know that carries it and bought three bottles for $4.50 a piece. I was pretty excited to get home and try one out. Popped the top and right away I could tell it was skunked. F#$KING dissapointing to say the least. Why would an established brewery like St. Peter's not change from those green bottles? It didn't taste anything like what I'd had before. Tasted like Heineken! So I drank it, opened the second one, same thing. I'm going to have to see if they have it in brown bottles. I remember from their website that they offer 12oz bottles. I've always had 16.9oz. It cost way too much to be driving 50 miles and then paying $4.50 a bottle. I've got to figure something out. Also, I do know that the last time I went to the LHBS the only Hallertau they had was 2.7%AA. Not sure what variety, but I'll find out. One more thing, the beers last night had a definite metallic taste.
 
n307400052_59011_4018.jpg


OK so I'm getting ready to take a sip. All I smell is skunk, Heineken skunk, so I think this is a bad / poorly shipped bottle. But I paid cash monies for it, so oh well. Here we go.

A: Skunk. If I get close, skunk dipped in butterscotch/diacetyl, dipped in skunk. Almost like a really skunky bag of green stuff, in fact, because I can smell it from 3-4 feet away, without trying to. It's really aromatic.

A: Brilliant honey-butterscotch-gold-yellow color, mostly clear but with a distinct haziness to it. Poured with a rocky head, but it collapsed almost instantaneously.

F: Distinctive water taste/profile. Minerally. Finishes with a very nice Maris Otter / bready / cinnamony smoothness. Sip 2, the hop is present but faded somewhat, again I'm assuming due to light exposure. It's not terribly strong, nor is it terribly "forward" in its taste. Someone above mentioned mid-1.050's but if I had to guess out of thin air, I would only say this is a 1.044-1.048 beer. Sip 3, there are some subtle sournesses / tartnesses that I am attributing to the water profile. Still a very mild, floral hop presence. Hallertau sounds right, although I think you could accomplish the same thing with a very small amount of Goldings or Fuggle. Really, I feel bad saying it, but this is forgettable. It's very nondescript.

M: Usually I have a huge, long description for mouthfeel, but in this case, I'm sorry but it just feels like beer. Normal, plain 'ol beer. Lighter carbonation though, not NEARLY as bubbly as a Miller Lite. But, alas, it still drinks like plain ol' beer. Goes down easy, doesn't really linger.

O: I'm not impressed with this - mind you I'm not disappointed per se, but I'm not knocked right the eff out of my seat or anything. I've had their Golden Ale(?) and their Cream Stout, and they both exceeded this beer. I would absolutely believe it's due to shipping/storage reasons, maybe a fresh one is god's gift to man. But this one, well, it's another bottle for my collection.

Sorry to be so critical. Hopefully this gives further info for recipe development? Probably not, I guess.

If I had to guess, it tastes a lot like beers I've made with S-05.

Why would an established brewery like St. Peter's not change from those green bottles? It didn't taste anything like what I'd had before. Tasted like Heineken! So I drank it, opened the second one, same thing. I'm going to have to see if they have it in brown bottles.

Rumor had it they switched from the older, oval, clear bottles to the new green round bottles to help with packaging and cheapness of freight, but I say they need to go even darker yet.
 
Chriso, I've had the other two you mention and they are pretty good. IMO though, this one is hands down the better of those three. I didn't even bother trying to judge or analyze it once I knew it was skunked. It tastes like a skunk's brown star with a heineken chaser if you ask me. The strange part is that it seems to not only detract from the usual taste, but actually change it all together. I need to find one that hasn't been exposed. Every bottle I had before was that oval "flask" shape and the glass was the same color. I understand why you think its forgettable. Fine with me. I didn't make it, and if I did I would have enough sense to put it in a BROWN bottle.
 
B, my opinion might be very, very different if I can get hold of a non-skunked bottle. I was just callin' it as I saw it, but also tried to be very honest that I was including the "skunk" in my review.

And +1 on the they-should-use-Brown.

Hey I just am stoked that you're working with us to work out a clone. It's cool to see people pitching in and working together :)

Cheers mate!
 
I have no doubt that your opinion would change. You might not like it still, but the couple I had the other night were not in the same class as what I had before. Tried liquid solutions. They want $58 for a 6 pack. Another reason why I need to figure out this clone. If I can find a bottle that isn't skunked all send it to somebody for some help.
 
B, Let me try a different liquor store tonight and see if I can get a non-skunker. All is naught lost yet. Just wait.

Honestly I think we already have the start of a good clone though.

Have you thought of trying a pilot brew with the ideas we've come up w/ so far? Even if it's not *the* perfect clone, it's gonna be tasty. Hallertau and a simple grain bill is a nice combination.
 
Absolutely. I'm going to try this on my next batch. I just wish someone could taste one that wasn't skunked. I wonder if buying directly from St. Peter's website would do the trick. It must be getting skunked in transition because I've probably had 10 individual 500ml bottles from the same liquor store. Only the last 2 were skunked. I'm all for just getting close. If you read some reviews from beeradvocate.com, it seems that everyone that didn't have a skunked one liked it pretty well. The one thing I can't figure out is where that metallic taste came from. It wasn't overpowering by any means but it was undoubtedly in there.
 
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