Aged Cider in Bourbon barrel

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timotb

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Im wondering if there could be any flavor advantage to aging cider (applewine) in a Bourbon barrel? Any thoughts?
 
I had a beer this weekend called Innis & Gunn that was ages in oak rum cast and it was fantastic. Being a HUGE bourbon fan I'm pretty sure a totally dry cider ages in bourbon cask would be killer. If you have access to such cask, I say you should definitely give it a try.
 
Im seriously considering buying a 53 gallon bourbon barrel and doing this in the fall....I would like to read up on how to properly do this. I'm not finding any "how to" guides on the net, just a lot of forum chatter guessing how. I wish someone could commend some specific reading on the matter. Yeah, I agree making cider is easy, but making great cider is a challenge.
 
My club has made a few barrel-aged ciders that came out very well. We used Lairds Applejack barrels, which were previously bourbon barrels. We didn't think a dry, crisp, low ABV cider would work well with the barrel, so we made a New England style cider using brown sugar and raisins. We fermented it for about a month before transferring to the oak barrels for 4-5 months. I know some serious cidermakers in MA that make a barrel cider every year. They take a more traditional approach. They ferment right in the bourbon barrel. After fermentation, they top off with fresh cider. Then, leave it on the lees, in the barrel, until bottling time. I believe they usually wait about 6 months, but have waited 1-2 years for some.

The barrel can overpower the cider. I would suggest using a wine thief and sampling every month or so.
 
Jack Daniels sells wood chips, for smoking food, that are made from the old oak whiskey barrels. I wonder if you could get the same effect by adding some to each bottle .
 
Oh My God, you just made me really thirsty!
That sounds amazing. I've never made a cider, or any wood aged beverage, but I need to try this.

I don't think there is really a well known "right way" to do this. Just put it in the barrel and take it out when it's good.
You can use chips in a bottle/jug/carboy rather than the barrel if you don't want to make a hogs-head (what's that in liters?) of cider. They sell chips at many wine making supply stores, though the price is stupid for a little wood. I think if/when I try this I'll start with a tree and a chainsaw. It may add something good if the wood is saturated with whiskey.
Okay, so while writing this I've come up with a plan:
Make some oak chips
Fill a jug with said chips
Fill said jug with Johny Walker Red (any whiskey would work)
Ferment cider
Drink the Johny Walker (now that it's black label)
Use wood chip jug as secondary
Maybe transfer some chips in to bottles (just strain before drinking)
 
Oak sticks work much better than chips for ageing and imparting flavour.

Sticks should be about 1/2" square by about 6" long.

Barrels (and hence sticks) for ageing spirits are 'heavy toast' to 'char'.

Best and cheapest way to do em is to buy a half barrell planter wine or bourbon barrell and bust it into staves. Use a belt sander or saw to cut the dirty outside wood of and give the inside wine stain a light sand down too.
Cut and split sticks to desired size using a hatchet or saw.

To toast, wrap a dozen or twenty sticks in two layers in foil to seal and roast in the oven/gas bbq ect at 220C for 2 hours.
Check and when they are a dark chocolate colour they are ready.

Some pepople char them over a flame till they are aligator char for ageing store bought bourbon further, but other spirits should be a chocolate toast.

They'd be good for your cider after ageing once or twice for your store bought spirits. A white dog like Georgia Moon would be aged this way for about 8-16 weeks on about 5 sticks to the gallon.

Suggest a lot less for cider.
 
Ive thought about the wood chip idea. Much cheaper than buying a full barrel. I was thinking about aging the cider for several years in the barrel. I would figure age and the bourbon barrel would only enhance flavor over time. I read most people limit the aging to just a few weeks...not sure why.

Using my limited 4 year experience with making cider I would ferment to dry in regular carboys giving a final ABV 10-12%, then load in a used bourbon 53 gallon barrel for the long aging process without any additives. A "select" bourbon barrel is about $160 before shipping from a firm in Danville KY

My desired end result is a bourbon flavor that mellows with time. I hope these barrels remain air tight. No carbonation that I normally would get by force using Cornelius kegs. When I do start to tap the keg, isn't air/oxygen going to enter and spoil it over time?
 
Gremlyn1 said:
I found a cidery in England that uses barrels: http://www.newforestcider.co.uk/how_cider_is_made.html
If I'm in that area when I go in May, I will definitely be stopping by. Not sure how common a practice it is, but I bet it'd be good.
Click to expand...

it's very common especially in the old school cideries in the west country (ie southwest england- mostly somerset, gloucester, also herefordshire and worcestershire in the west). i have also always wondered how giant tapped barrels don't oxidize - it's not like they are pumping co2 or inert gas in to replace displaced liquid... but i have always consumed too much to remember to ask

anyone know?
 
I would think that the O2 would be a problem once tapped. The barrel should remain sealed for the aging process with out any problems. Once you start drinking it, you'd want to finish it fast. If you use CO2 to get it out you'd be fine, assuming the slats don't dry and let air in the top.
I would say your best bet (assuming you drink less than 6 gals a day), is to bottle or keg it after aging.

A theory to how it could work fine: In a stable environment you'll have a large amount to CO2 dissolved in the cider. As you draw off fluid from the bottom you'll make a slight vacuum, which will pull some of the CO2 out. Even if you get some air bubbling up into the head space, the concentration of CO2 will be very high. Since CO2 is denser then O2 there will be some separation of the gasses in this inclosed environment.
 
timotb said:
I thought that was some kind of joke... so I looked it up...its for real
http://beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/579/65042
Click to expand...

I also thought it was a joke :cross:

So now gasoline is the only thing that isn't better with bourbon. That will soon be a thing of the past with all these new cars powered by ethanol. I'm running mine on cider infused with bourbon :rockin:

So this thread has pretty much established that EVERYTHING tastes better with bourbon.
 
timotb said:
. A "select" bourbon barrel is about $160 before shipping from a firm in Danville KY
Click to expand...

I'm not sure how my barrel grades but I was just at Jack Daniels distillery last week and purchased a freshly drained barrel in excellent condition for $85. It has none of the fancy enhancements that they offer like branding or varnishing but it is a fine looking barrel.
 
If you have your own barrel, you just have to keep topping off. Make enough to fill the barrel and age it, get another 5 gal ready, draw off 5 gal to kegs/bottles, refill the barrel with the freshly fermented cider and repeat ad nauseam.
 
oldmate said:
I also thought it was a joke :cross:

So this thread has pretty much established that EVERYTHING tastes better with bourbon.
Click to expand...

Ha Ha Ha. It actually took me a long time to come up with those two things. I guess it's time to buy some barrels to age, well, everything, even cans of Pabst (at lest the outside will smell nice).

Gremlyn1,
Sounds like a good system for keeping things from oxidizing, and keeping a steady supply on hand.
A system of siphoning out the 5 gal, wile siphoning in the new 5gal at the same time would be pretty slick. With a slightly higher flow going out than in, it would prevent problems, but the little head room would be filled with CO2 released from the fresh batch.

roadymi,
That sounds like a good price to me. JD make a lot of whiskey and they don't reuse their barrels, so it's a good supply for us. Though I must say, JD is about the last bourbon I'd ever buy... I guess that has a lot to do with price... which has a lot to do with them tossing their barrels...
 
Here's another thought with regards to 53 gallon wood bourbon barrels. I wonder if one could be configured with Cornelius keg posts and pressurized to something under 5psi to replace the head space when sampling the keg? Could a full bourbon barrel handle that small amount of pressure? As the barrel is tapped and becomes empty, the sides might dry and shrink thus letting in O2
 
Bourbon barrels are sold regularly because they are only allowed to be used once. I understand that many of them are dismantled and shipped to Scotland to age scotch. I think JD does the branding and varnishing for barrels being used for decoration. A barrel needs to breath, so you wouldn't want to varnish it otherwise.
 
Anyone think a bourbon barrel could be pressurized just enough to keep oxygen out when full? Just enough to have positive pressure?
 
timotb said:
Anyone think a bourbon barrel could be pressurized just enough to keep oxygen out when full? Just enough to have positive pressure?
Click to expand...

Yes you could, I'm sure of it. The trick is getting the right regulator of the CO2. I think a cheap and easy way would be to convert a low pressure propane or natural gas regulator (easy to fined for free, or $15US new) to feed the CO2. These regulators run at a pressure or 11 or 7 water column inches (1PSI = about 27.7 water column inches).
Most of these low pressure regs should have a high pressure reg feeding them, so you would have your full pressure tank, a high pressure reg bringing the pressure down to 10 PSI (or whatever, read what's printed on the LP reg) then the low pressure reg, and then the connection to the barrel.
There is a chance that the barrel would dry out at the top and leak really bad, so it would be wise to keep it in a well ventilated place, and add a pin valve after the low pressure regulator, to reduce flow in such a situation.
 
DrJerryrigger said:
Yes you could, I'm sure of it. The trick is getting the right regulator of the CO2. I think a cheap and easy way would be to convert a low pressure propane or natural gas regulator (easy to fined for free, or $15US new) to feed the CO2. These regulators run at a pressure or 11 or 7 water column inches (1PSI = about 27.7 water column inches).
Most of these low pressure regs should have a high pressure reg feeding them, so you would have your full pressure tank, a high pressure reg bringing the pressure down to 10 PSI (or whatever, read what's printed on the LP reg) then the low pressure reg, and then the connection to the barrel.
There is a chance that the barrel would dry out at the top and leak really bad, so it would be wise to keep it in a well ventilated place, and add a pin valve after the low pressure regulator, to reduce flow in such a situation.
Click to expand...

Sounds like you've done this before.....I would love to see pictures of the detail.
 
timotb said:
Anyone think a bourbon barrel could be pressurized just enough to keep oxygen out when full? Just enough to have positive pressure?
Click to expand...

Maybe I'm missing something, but this doesn't make sense to me. If you guys think an oak barrel is tight enough so that pressurized CO2 can't get out, then how could oxygen possibly get in if it wasn't pressurized?

My two cents: Fill the barrel up to minimize headspace. Put in a stopper and airlock. Walk away. I've done it that way a number of times and haven't had a problem yet. Due to the curvature of the barrel, you can fill it so there is minimal headspace.
 
GinKings said:
Maybe I'm missing something, but this doesn't make sense to me. If you guys think an oak barrel is tight enough so that pressurized CO2 can't get out, then how could oxygen possibly get in if it wasn't pressurized?

My two cents: Fill the barrel up to minimize headspace. Put in a stopper and airlock. Walk away. I've done it that way a number of times and haven't had a problem yet. Due to the curvature of the barrel, you can fill it so there is minimal headspace.
Click to expand...

I don't think O2 is a potential problem if the barrel is full (or nearly), but if you where to take out, say half, for consumption, Then the head space would have some O2. Also a dry barrel isn't as tight as a wet one, so there may be some air leaks in the dry half of a half empty barrel.
The simple solution would be to find a smaller barrel, or just fill a 6.5gal carboy with some bits o' toasted oak.
 
DrJerryrigger said:
I don't think O2 is a potential problem if the barrel is full (or nearly), but if you where to take out, say half, for consumption, Then the head space would have some O2. Also a dry barrel isn't as tight as a wet one, so there may be some air leaks in the dry half of a half empty barrel.
The simple solution would be to find a smaller barrel, or just fill a 6.5gal carboy with some bits o' toasted oak.
Click to expand...


..or don't just take out a little for consumption. Completely transfer to stainless steel Cornelius kegs or equivalent when aging complete. This also gives an opportunity to force carbonate. Just use the oak barrel for aging. mmmm I can almost taste the bourbon aged flavor of a normally harsh cider brew now....or so I hope.
 
roadymi said:
I'm not sure how my barrel grades but I was just at Jack Daniels distillery last week and purchased a freshly drained barrel in excellent condition for $85. It has none of the fancy enhancements that they offer like branding or varnishing but it is a fine looking barrel.
Click to expand...

I know I am resurecting an old thread, I just purchased a 5 gal. bourbon barrel for cider. It's a learning curve so I don't ruin the barrel or my cider. I was thinking of going with a 10 gal. and doing 5 out/5 in everytime but that's a commitment!

First question is if I use a fruit flavored cider, like blueberry, will that barrel always be blueberry?
 
I've played with barrels for sour beer, and the one thing I'd be concerned with is surface area. With a small barrel like that, the relative surface area the cider will be in contact with is significantly higher than that of a standard 53 gal barrel. Also, if this is a new(ish) barrel, the "whiskey/bourbon" flavor will be very pronounced. These two things working together mean the cider could get very "whiskey-y" very fast.

I'd say run your cider through it for no more than a week, taste it, and gauge from there. Our first runs through a barrel that was on it's third use (Jack Daniels was first, Imperial Stout was second) ended up very bourbon-y with a very distinct vanilla flavor. About two or three runs after that, it was almost neutral and was used more as an inoculator for our house culture and a micro oxygenator (bugs like the o2).

I haven't directly fruited in a barrel before (messy) but I can say that the imperial stout that was in the barrel before our sour red didn't really impact the flavor of the sour. No roast carryover we could detect. I'd assume that a milder flavor like blueberry wouldn't carry batch to batch. If you're putting the blueberries directly in the barrel with the skins, I'd assume a little color carryover, if anything.

Sorry, wordy. Second cup of coffee this AM
 
Thanks. I wouldn't put fruit in the barrel. Too hard to clean.

I put fruit in the primary. Then add more juice to backsweeten in the corny.
 
10 gallon barrel with a mock "solera" (5-in/5-out method you mentioned)
is the way to go.
It's what i do with my barrel and it produces great hard cider.
I personally wouldn't mix a fruited cider in it unless you planned on ONLY putting that type of cider into it again and again.
One of the BHT sponsors (out of Wisconsin) sells used barrels every now and then. I think 5-10-15 gallon sizes.
Some held whiskey, some rum, perhaps some, even tequila.
I think i paid 180-ish including shipping and i couldn't be happier with the purchase.
Happy brewing.
 
Paps said:
10 gallon barrel with a mock "solera" (5-in/5-out method you mentioned)
is the way to go.
It's what i do with my barrel and it produces great hard cider.
I personally wouldn't mix a fruited cider in it unless you planned on ONLY putting that type of cider into it again and again.
One of the BHT sponsors (out of Wisconsin) sells used barrels every now and then. I think 5-10-15 gallon sizes.
Some held whiskey, some rum, perhaps some, even tequila.
I think i paid 180-ish including shipping and i couldn't be happier with the purchase.
Happy brewing.
Click to expand...

Ugh.... I went with the five! Now I gotta find a rubber stopper to fit my bung hole.:rockin:
 
Remember, a 5 gallon barrel will "age" faster than a 55 gallon one due to science/surface area/chinese monkey magicians.
GET another batch of cider started NOW to replace what you will pull out of that barrel in a month or 2/3.
Also, if it is a brand new/never used barrel, it will age rapidly.
I don't know how strong of a wood flavor you seek.
It might be a good idea to pour off a cup every few weeks for taste testing.
But no matter what you do.....
Seriosly, start more cider NOW!
 
Yeah I plan on sampling often!

Unfortunately cider season is over in these parts so I'll just fill it with citric acid/k-meta solution to store it til fall.
 
Store bought juice works fine.
No point in having a barrel if you don't have cider/beer in it.
 

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