3 Beers, 2 Brewers, Same Long Bitter Flavor at the End

Hopefully the HBT knowledge pool can help solve this mystery. Between brew buddy and myself, we have brewed 3 extract batches all completely different styles (Kolsch, Hefe, and Porter). All three batches have been in bottle between 1-2 months. And all three finish with a similar lingering bitterness.

We live in the same area but do have different water companies. Two out of the three batches were BB kits. The third was an extract brew but not a kit. Different hops and hopping schedules were used in all three. Batches were all 5 gallon brewed in SS pots and fermented in BB 6 gallon plastic pails. Starsan used for steri. No adjustments were made for water chemistry. Lou, KY is known for "great" drinking water for what that is worth. My personal opinion is it does taste good even without the "beer" in it.

I am trying to ID the source of the bitterness because it needs to go away. While it doesn't make the beer undrinkable, it stops it from being something I would make again. And frankly it is very annoying.

I appreciate any thoughts and/or suggestions.

From a Water Quality point, I know KY is a cavernous region, which contributes to the "great" drinking water claim. Cavernous regions are always connected to calcium rich groudwater, which will lead to enhanced bitterness. It might be as simple as trimming down the bittering hops due to the enhanced bitterness from hard water. You'd need to look at the water report. "Great" drinking water can mean simply great taste and typically, very hard water often tastes great because the dissolved ions are pleasant on the palate.

Did all the recipes involve steeping some specialty grains? What was the process for that?

Since you're brewing extract batches, try one using distilled water. I've heard it's preferable to use distilled water when brewing with extract since all the minerals etc. are already in the extract.

If you still have the problem this will at least rule out water as the source of it.

ong said:

Did all the recipes involve steeping some specialty grains? What was the process for that?

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A agree with ong. What's your process for steeping your specialty grains? That "bitter" flavor may be tannins.

Also, if you haven't read about it before, "late extract additions" gave me the best beers when doing extract batches.

another thing to try would be only boiling 1 or 2 pounds of the extract for the full boil time and adding the rest with like 5 minutes or so left in the boil. adjust your hops for a lower gravity because your utilization will be better at a lower gravity.

Thanks for the replies everyone. For the two extract brews I did, the specialty grains were steeped at 152F for 15 minutes and then raised to drain but no squeezing.

I am suspect that the water is contributing to issue as well. I plan to brew this weekend. I did not mention in the first post that I have since graduated to all-grain. What are your thoughts on the addition of Campden tablet to my water for this next batch? I would like to adjust one variable at a time and this seemed pretty straight forward. Then if the taste was still there I would switch to RO or distilled and add back minerials?

Also always, thanks for your comments and insight.

Even though you have different water companies, could be using the same water source.

I love it "it does taste good even without the "beer" in it. "

But ya,,, I like both suggestions though I think the water is the issue... cut back on the bittering hops or add some distilled water to the boil as suggested...

I would cut back first and see haw that works since it is cheaper than buy additional items...

The late boil additions should be fine (I think and Chemists please correct me if wrong)...

I think John Palmers book takes about water in about as layman terns as you can get.

TWO
1 - suggestions Find out what water profile you have an make a beer that fits it... Maybe a "Burton Ale"
2 - let it age a bit longer,,, the harshness will disapate over time... (tough thing to do really)

It sounds like the water has high alkalinity. In order to see if that's the problem, you could try one batch with distilled or reverse osmosis water. If that fixes it, you know it your water.

You can get a good water report from Ward Labs for $16.50 that will tell you everything you need to know about your water for brewing.

I have great tasting water, but because it's got a lot of carbonate in it, it can make my lighter colored beers have a harsh edge to it.

It's especially important with AG brewing to find out what's in the water, as mash pH plays a big role in the final flavor of the beer.

are you by chance using a pre-hopped extract? this would definitely contribute to the bitterness if you are adding hops on top of the hops already present in the extract.

Brewski08,
Good thought but the extracts were not pre-hopped.

Yooper,
Thanks for the suggestions. I will try my next batch with distilled. The hardness could be the issue.

DPBISME,
Agreed on the aging. Time has made them all better. The first couple weeks on the Kolsch were undrinkable.

Sounds like water it is. Thanks everyone for all the reply's to get me on track.

I don't know if you have Louisville Water Company or another. Here is their water quality report from 2011:

Under the EPA table, below the picture there is some more info...

ADDITIONAL WATER QUALITY DATA
Alkalinity (as CaCO3) - 71 mg/L
pH - 8.2 Standard Units (SU)
Calcium (as Ca) - 52 mg/L
Magnesium (as Mg) - 6 mg/L
Sodium (as Na) - 26 mg/L
Sulfate - 46 mg/L
Bicarbonate (as CaCO3) - 65 mg/L
Chloride - 40 mg/L
Hardness (as CaCO3) - 149 mg/L
(8.7 grains/gallon)
Data is an average of Crescent Hill Filtration Plant and
B.E. Payne Water Treatment Plant

I'm going to go out on a limb and say I don't think it's the alkalinity. For reference, mine is at 110, and there is no effect on the water. However, some other elements (Ca, Na, S, Cl) are considerably higher, and your water is somewhat harder.

As a side note, it would be nice if all water companies had this information on their web site in addition to the EPA mumbo-jumbo about trihalomethanes.

How about fermentation temps? Have you tasted it before you bottled? If so, was the same bitter taste present? How are you cleaning and storing the bottles - both before you fill and while they are conditioning? How are you carbonating them - amount of priming sugar? If the water report didn't have anything glaringly wrong that's where I'd start next.

8.2 is a very high pH for "water," considering that pure water has a pH of 7. Specialty grains might drop that a little, but probably not enough if making a Kolsch or similar lighter style. You can mix in some distilled or add some acid to get a more beer-friendly pH. Click the link and read the second question if you want to learn more about pH than I can tell you.

http://***********/stories/wizard/a...e-a-reducing-tannins-but-not-flavor-mr-wizard

The dreaded-double post. At least my post count is trending upwards.

Prrriiide,
Excellent info from Louisville Water. I found the report but did not see the ion information that I really needed. I am on LWC supply. Thanks much. Been looking for this for a while. I am inclined to dilute with distilled and look at adjusting pH some as Kingwood-kid notes.


Cadillacandy,
Fermentation temps are 72-74 degrees F. I taste each batch at every step in order to learn. I am one of those that open a bottle every week and taste. Not expecting it to be good, just trying to understand the change in taste profile. The Kolsch was bitter from the beginning. The Hefe had a gigantic banana flavor to start so it was tough to say. The bitter only became evident as the banana mellowed after 3-4 weeks. I can not say when my friends Porter showed signs.

I wash bottles and then sanitize with Star San just before bottling. They drain upside down in my dishwasher rack while I am bottling. No rinse on the star san. After bottling they are stored in a cabinet in my basement bar. Temps are approximately 72 degree F. Priming sugar on the Kolsch was 5oz exact from kit. Hefe was required level based on 2.7 volume from Beersmith.


From the sounds of the various suggestions, I am leaning toward diluting with distilled and ensuring a pH more appropriate to brewing. Ref Palmer and other experts for this level.

Does that sound like a reasonable next step?

Thanks as always.

BeerBroecker said:

Fermentation temps are 72-74 degrees F.

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That might make it a little harsh. As you experienced, that often subsides with some time. Remember that the wort is several degrees hotter than ambient temps. You could have been 15 degrees too hot. Look into swamp coolers. If you have an igloo cooler large enough to put your bucket in, you're good to go.

I'm going to guess that you have multiple smaller issues that are adding up to the problem you are experiencing. The pH is likely a contributor, as well as the ferm temps. +1 on the swamp cooler. I used a rope-handled tote with water, a t-shirt and a fan. Worked like a charm and kept my temps down in the 64-66 ambient range. Now that I have temp control I try to keep my temps in the 61-64 range.

I would get the ferm temps under control first, since that effects more than the bitterness issue. Then I would suggest adding some aciduated malt in your mash and get some pH test strips to check your mash pH. It also wouldn't hurt to stop in for a pint at Bluegrass Brewing and see if you can pick the brain of one of their brewers to see what (if any) water adjustments they make.

BeerBroecker said:

... I am leaning toward diluting with distilled and ensuring a pH more appropriate to brewing. Ref Palmer and other experts for this level.

Does that sound like a reasonable next step?

Thanks as always.

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Sounds reasonable - but I'd want to see you use a charcoal filter and/or campden tablets and let your tap water sit out in an open container overnight before diluting it.

I think Chlorine is causing the bad aftertaste you're getting.

The multiple issue thought has crossed my mind numerous times. Those are always the fun ones to troubleshoot at work as well. I think establishing a "best practices" with my water (ie: campden tabs, etc.) should help to remove unnecessary variables.

Speaking of consulting the local brew gurus, I stopped by my LHBS to ask his opinion. I stated basically what I noted in this thread. His paraphrased comment was "the local water is great. If it is too bitter just cut back on your hops". This could be true as well but one variable at a time.

Well my grains have been purchased and the style chosen. Farmhouse Saison round 2 is coming soon. Now to carve out 5 hours to get-er-done.

did I read right? kolsch yeast brewed at 72-74 ambient temp? This yeast loves the low temps; 55 through 68 (low means clean). If you have a 74 ambient temp, try belgian yeast until the fall.

The Kolsch was a brewers best kit with a dry yeast. I don't think it was a true Kolsch strain but could be wrong. You point is understood though. As my first attempt at making beer it was an uneducated choice. At the time I simply chose something I had never heard about. I tend to jump head first in to new hobbies. Tried that with model airplanes...for what its worth that was not my finest hour.

IMO the sooner you are 100% sure (you experience) the off taste of overheated yeast the sooner you will believe 100% to trust the label recommendation. Better get it over sooner than later.

BeerBroecker said:

The multiple issue thought has crossed my mind numerous times. Those are always the fun ones to troubleshoot at work as well. I think establishing a "best practices" with my water (ie: campden tabs, etc.) should help to remove unnecessary variables.

Speaking of consulting the local brew gurus, I stopped by my LHBS to ask his opinion. I stated basically what I noted in this thread. His paraphrased comment was "the local water is great. If it is too bitter just cut back on your hops". This could be true as well but one variable at a time.

Well my grains have been purchased and the style chosen. Farmhouse Saison round 2 is coming soon. Now to carve out 5 hours to get-er-done.

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That saison will be right in the wheelhouse for your ferm temps...it likes it at 80* or more. I would read up on some fermentation characteristics on it though. Saison yeast can do some funky stuff; like ferment like crazy for a couple of days, then stick for a week, then take off again.