Who are you and why are you in my beer?

So I'm new to homebrewing - I've brewed about 4 or 5 extract recipes and I'm having a great time. The first 3 that I've bottled and started drinking have given me mixed results.

The first (a steam beer) turned out cloud. Unfortunately, people (including me) don't like the taste of it. It didn't turn out anywhere close to how it should have - it's not bad, but it's not good and tastes far from how it should.

The second (a belgian blond), turned out great - tastes exactly as it should and every seems to like it quite a bit. My only "issue" with it is that it's also a bit cloudy - which I wouldn't have expected for this style necessarily.

The last (an extra pale ale), turned out similar to the steam beer - very cloudy with some off-flavors. Both the pale and the steam have a "vegetabley" aftertaste - kind of like celery.

My question is this - what is the veggie taste, and more importantly, how do I get rid of it? Second, any idea how get rid of the cloudiness I've seen in the first couple of beers?

Any help you can provide is MUCH appreciated.

Recipes? What kind of extract are you using?

How long are you fermenting and at what temperature?

Here are the recipes I used - they're from Northern Brewer:

Blonde: Lefse Blond Extract Kit

Pale: Extra Pale Ale Extract Kit

Steam: California Common Extract Kit


As an FYI - I'm doing a partial boil and diluting in the primary.

The Steam turned out pretty dark as well.

Primary fermentation for about 10-14 days, then racked to secondary for another 14 days. Bottle conditioned for another 10-14 days.

It's hard to say without knowing much about what you did, but vegetable flavor is often due to DMS, which is caused by not boiling long enough or hard enough.

Is it cloudy when it's at room temperature, or just when it's cold? If you don't give it enough time for the solids & yeast to settle out that might cause cloudiness all the time, or if it just gets cloudy when it's cold that's commonly due to not chilling fast enough.

These are just very general suggestions -- like I said it's hard to know without knowing more about how it was brewed.

The first thing I want to ask is about your sanitation and your other techniques. I also wonder about fermentation temperature- that could be an issue here.

How do you cool the wort when the boil is over? Chilling quickly will help make a clear beer, as will a good hard boil while it's boiling.

The veggie flavor will more than likely mellow with time. IPA's need a about 2-3 months IMHO before they start tasting great.

As far as your cloudiness, try using irish moss in your boils. Also, a few days in the fridge should fix it. This is most likely caused by chill haze. Having too many proteins left in the beer after your cold break can do this. If it takes you a while to cool your beer down before pitching yeast, this could be the cause.

Yooper - I was really careful with cleaning everything thoroughly and sanitizing anything that came in contact with the wort. Sanitized with Iodiophor. Fermented in the range of temperatures listed for the specified yeasts - generally between 68-72 (which is tough to get down to in AZ).

After boiling, I cooled the brewpot in an ice water bath in the kitchen sink. I had also sanitized at 1 gallon rubbermaid tupperware container and froze a block of ice. That was added to the wort (since I needed to dilute to get to 5 gallons).

HotBreakHotel - it's cloudy at room temperature and cold.

It seems like you let them sit long enough. It can be a challenge to make a beer very clear without cold conditioning. May you could investigate using Irish Moss to make it clearer.

As far as being dark, sometimes extract can darken during the boil. I'm not an extract brewer but I understand it can be hard to get around, but maybe others can help further.

Good for you for being picky -- that makes for a great brewer!

HotBreakHotel - you mentioned in an earlier post that the veggie flavors often come from DMS. Forgive me... but what's DMS?

From howtobrew.com:

Dimethyl Sulfides (DMS)/ Cooked Vegetable Flavors
Like diacetyl in ales, DMS is common in many light lagers and is considered to be part of the character. DMS is produced in the wort during the boil by the reduction of another compound, S-methyl-methionine (SMM), which is itself produced during malting. When a malt is roasted or toasted, the SMM is reduced beforehand and does not manifest as DMS in the wort, which explains why it is more prevalent in pale lagers. In other styles, DMS is a common off-flavor, and can be caused by poor brewing practices or bacterial infections.

DMS is continuously produced in the wort while it is hot and is usually removed by vaporization during the boil. If the wort is cooled slowly these compounds will not be removed from the wort and will dissolve back in. Thus it is important to not completely cover the brewpot during the boil or allow condensate to drip back into the pot from the lid. The wort should also be cooled quickly after the boil, either by immersing in an ice bath or using a wort chiller.

When caused by bacterial infection, DMS has a more rancid character, more liked cooked cabbage than corn. It is usually the result of poor sanitation. Repitching the yeast from an infected batch of beer will perpetuate the problem.

I'd definitely say it doesn't taste "rancid"... and I've been very careful with sanitizing everything - so I'd say it isn't due to bacterial infection. Though I suppose that's still a possibility.

Like I said, it doesn't taste bad, it just doesn't taste as expected.

For your pale ale, I see the recommended yeast was US-05. I know they give an optimum range, but I think this yeast needs to be below 65 to come out clean, especially with an extra pale ale, for which there is very little to disguise any yeast character. I think this yeast is best at 62, but I will often ferment at 65 for strong flavored beers. I really like this yeast and I use it often, but if it's not cool enought you'll get esters that need a long time to condition out. Most ale yeasts will have the same issue, but in my experience if you use WLP001 it will come out clean up to 68 or so.

I'll refrain from commenting on the steam beer because I'm not real into that style, but I understand that Saflager 23 is not a very clean lager yeast -- someone else will know more I'm sure.

It seems like you're doing everything right. Proper sanitation, proper temperatures, not covering the boil pot, a nice rolling boil and chilling the wort quickly are important, but it seems like you have that covered.

What kind of water are you using?

Thanks Yooper!! I couldn't have said it nearly as well myself!

I'm actually buying 5 one gallon jugs of purified water at the store. AZ has very hard water and I didn't want it affecting the beer at all.

Also - I used the Wyeast smack packs for each of these - not the dry yeast. Those give a temp range a bit higher than the dry.

spring water?

i have known some people who came to the same conclusion, and then mistakenly used distilled water.

They have purified, distilled, and spring water at the store and I always buy the purified. I don't think the water is the issue because the Belgian Blond came out just fine (beside the cloudiness) and I used the store bought water on that one as well.

IMHO even with a wyeast smack pack I wouldn't get as high as 70 if you want to stay very clean. I would still keep it way under 70. Some people use "swamp coolers," meaning you sit your fermenter in a tub of cool water. Much info in threads here.

9 times out of 10 veggie smell/taste = DMS. Yooper did a good job of describing the causes.

The most common in cases like yours is an inadequately vigorous boil. It is often difficult to get a good rolling boil with smaller pots because they are often over full and will boil over with a good boil. Those that are bigger but still not enough to do a full boil often overwhelm a stove top burner and will never boil well. Get a good rolling boil for the full 60 minutes (and never cover) then cool as fast as you can, the ice is a good way to do it.

Using distilled water is actually not a bad option because the minerals from the mashing water are in the extract in a similar concentration, but for most beers tap water is fine and spring water ok too.

I would also suggest doing a late extract addition to get the planned hop character (adding hops to super concentrated wort effects your extraction.) If you are doing a 3 gallon boil for a 5 gallon batch add 60% of your extract at the start and the other 40% just before flame out, just make sure it gets sanitized by the hot wort, it doesn't even have to come to a full boil but getting it to a simmer is very good. If you are boiling 2 gallons for your 5 gallon batch start with 40% etc. Using a late extract addition will also cut down on the scorching or browning of the wort because the sugars aren't as concentrated when it's boiling. I used to burn extract to the bottom of my pots before I started doing late extract additions.

Most of the time a cloudy beer at room temperature is either infected or the yeast are still in suspension and haven't flocculated yet. Take a couple bottles of each beer and store them in the coldest part of your fridge for a week, this should make the yeast flocculate so you can see what you are dealing with. Do your bottles have a dusting of yeast on the bottom? Are they well carbed? Do the ones you put in the fridge for a week have more stuff on the bottom or about the same. When you put the beers in the fridge for a week they may well still look a little cloudy because of proteins in the beer that get cloudy when the beer is cold. Once they are in the fridge, if you see a lot more yeast dropping to the bottom but they're still cloudy take one out and let it assume room temperature, the cloudiness should be gone.

jjacobs said:

I'm actually buying 5 one gallon jugs of purified water at the store. AZ has very hard water and I didn't want it affecting the beer at all.

Also - I used the Wyeast smack packs for each of these - not the dry yeast. Those give a temp range a bit higher than the dry.

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I concurr with Dantodd.

Also, I wonder what size starter you've used? If you're using the smack packs, you still should make a starter. Stressed yeast will give you some bad flavors.

Also, keep in mind that if the optimum fermentation temperature is a range of, say, 62-72, fermenting at 62 generally provides a "cleaner" taste. (This of course is the temperature of the fermenting beer, NOT the air temperature).

In my opinion, Wyeast 1056 tastes pretty bad if fermented above 72 degrees (as does the dry Nottingham, incidentally).

A Belgian yeast is nice and fruity with some phenols at 72 degrees or higher.

I'm still thinking about what you describe as a "veggie" taste. It still sounds like DMS to me. Are you getting a nice hard rolling boil, and chilling within 20 minutes after the boil ends?

Maybe I didn't see it, but did anyone ask the OP if he was leaving the lid on during the boil? This can cause DMS as well, yes? Just a thought..

I leave the lid off during the boil.

A couple of times, I may have put the lid on prior to it coming to a boil (just to help it get up over 212), but I always remove the lid once it gets up over the 205 range.

Should I not put the lid on prior to boiling?

jjacobs said:

I leave the lid off during the boil.

A couple of times, I may have put the lid on prior to it coming to a boil (just to help it get up over 212), but I always remove the lid once it gets up over the 205 range.

Should I not put the lid on prior to boiling?

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The lid on during warm up is completely fine. The fact that you are having to use the lid to get a boil going sounds like you are having trouble getting and keeping a good boil. A turkey fryer is a great investment and will bring your wort to a boil really fast. If you aren't getting a real rolling boil the DMS won't boil away. Barring that you might try a slightly smaller boil volume a good rolling boil is pretty important.

Although a good boil is important getting your temperature under control should be your number one priority.

The two most important things that a brewer can do to improve their beer are 1) Sanitation 2) fermentation temperature control. We know you are having trouble with the temperature so let's get that fixed first then see how your beer is tasting. It will be easier finding and fixing your off flavors if we start working towards a single flaw. There are a ton of fermentation chamber plans etc. in the DIY forum. Find a way to cool and monitor your beer throughout fermentation and then let us know how it is tasting. I'd recommend rebrewing one of the beers you've already done so you can compare them and see exactly what the fermentation temperature has done. If you want, ask here for good target temperatures for specific recipes/yeast.

I just popped open one of the pale ales that's been sitting in the fridge for about a week - it's starting to lose it's veggie flavor. There's still a hint of it, but it's much better. Should I expect the steam beer to do the same over time?

Also, I have two beers fermenting away right now - an imperial ipa and a pumpkin porter I'm hoping to have done for Thanksgiving. The ipa was transfered to the secondary about the time the replies started coming in on this post and the porter was about half way through primary fermentation. Both are using Wyeast 1056...

I was able to lower the the temperature of each of these to about 66 and should be able to keep it around there ( + or - 3 degrees). Assuming it's the fermentation temperature that is affecting the taste negatively, should I expect that each of these to NOT have the veggie off flavors (or at least to a lesser extent) than my previous batches?

Thanks to everyone for the replies! I appreciate the help.