Coriander "ham" flavor from previous batch?

I racked my Cream Ale into my Tap-a-Draft bottles a little over 5 weeks ago. I sampled it a few times since week 2 and it went from being hoppy, thin and watery to having a strong malt flavor with almost no hop flavor, and unfortunately an aftertaste of ham or hot dogs.

My last batch of beer was a wit which I used 1oz of crushed coriander seed in the boil. I racked that into bottles and tried a few bottles around the 2 week mark. That beer was pretty drinkable around 2 weeks, but by about week 5 or 6 it had this same hot dog flavor, I presume from the coriander.

The only common piece of equipment shared between this batch and last is my primary. I didn't even use the same brew kettle or muslin bags. I cleaned it after I racked my wit, stored it for a few weeks, then cleaned and sanitized it for this batch. I used regular dish detergent, rinsed well to get the smell of the soap out, filled it with Oxiclean and water for a few hours, and sanitized with StarSan. It is a Cooper's DIY plastic fermenter FWIW.

Is it possible that this taste is left over from my witbier?

I don't think so. Spices generally don't get any stronger once you separate them from the beer.

What's your water source?

ReverseApacheMaster said:

What's your water source?

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I was using the water from the tap in my kitchen. The water tasted good and I never notice any chlorine taste, though we do have hard water.

Could it be a flavor from the sediment? I just tapped this bottle and I've only drawn a few ounces to sample. The previous bottle didn't have this flavor, but it only sat at ambient for about 3 weeks before I put it in the fridge. This bottle was at ambient for a full 5 weeks.

FYI Coriander is a major spice used in hot dogs, which is probably why I think all beers that use coriander taste like hot dogs

The only way I can think to get that "hot dog" flavor is through coriander, so, as unlikely as it seems, you must have passed the flavor on from the wit.

I'm totally subscribing to this thread not because I have a solution, but I want to know the source of this "ham" aroma/flavor as well. A section of the BJCP guidelines states, "Vegetal, celery-like or ham-like aromas are inappropriate." in regards to a Wit.

I've never known what caused this, but it has always made me giggle... teehee... ham-beer.

EDIT: I see the hot dog coriander comment now, perhaps you did not use fresh or high quality coriander? What was your source? I only use fresh Indian coriander from an ethnic grocery and crush it myself, so it never smells like hot dogs, more like grapefruits and glory.

One of my local microbreweries (Kuhnhenn) had the same tast with their witbier, it reminded me of summer sausage. Its most likely the corriander, I found it to be kind of pleasing to be honest, like drinking and eating in one.

I'd be inclined to agree that the coriander is somehow the culprit but you also have other flavor changes going on that would not be attributable to coriander. Plus you are cleaning enough to knock out any flavor rolling over from the coriander unless it's somehow trapped in your equipment somewhere like an autosiphon or bottling bucket spout.

I think it is something with the water supply. It doesn't take a lot of chlorine or chloramine to alter the flavor of beer over time. Chlorine will actually make a beer more malty until it starts to turn into chlorophenols. If your water is hard some of the minerals may be causing the change in flavor or while they are in suspension giving you one flavor but over time as some settle out it allows different flavors to become more noticeable. Does the hotdog flavor get worse? Change into any other flavors?

Check any equipment with moving parts or small spaces that could trap coriander. If you don't find any, try using spring water or RO water from the store in your next batch and see if the same thing happens.

I don't see how it could be leftover from your last batch after cleaning your equipment twice but I guess stranger things have happened. You should serve this beer when meeting new people and ask them if they want to try your weiner cream ale.

AmandaK said:

What was your source?

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It was whole seed coriander from my LHBS. I don't believe it was Indian coriander since the seeds are perfectly round.

ReverseApacheMaster said:

Does the hotdog flavor get worse? Change into any other flavors?

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The flavor got worse with my witbier, but I've not had enough of the Cream Ale to know if it will become worse or not. The witbier was very good for the first few weeks and then the hot dog taste took over. I didn't consider my water but that would make more sense than my equipment. All of my other misc equipment goes through the same cleaning process I use for my fermenter, and it all soaks in Oxiclean and then StarSan.

We just moved, though we still have the same water source at the new house and it tastes the same as the old house. Can I boil the water first to remove chlorine and chloramine?

bchurch said:

ask them if they want to try your weiner cream ale.

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Totally what I'd do!!!

Now, I'm gonna be that guy who asks you to post your recipes and processes, including yeast and ferm temps, for both batches in question. I'm leaning away from coriander as the culprit if it was only used in one batch.

NordeastBrewer77 said:

Now, I'm gonna be that guy who asks you to post your recipes and processes, including yeast and ferm temps, for both batches in question.

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Witbier recipe:
1 can Cooper's Lager
2 lbs Briess Bavarian Wheat DME (original recipe called for 1kg)
3.25oz Cooper's Brew Enhancer 1
25g dried sweet orange peel
25g crushed coriander seed
10g Hallertauer Hersbrucker Hops
1 11g packet Safbrew WB-06

Boiled 6 quarts of water and added DME. Once break cleared I added the orange peel and hops and set my timer to 15 minutes. At 5 minutes I added my coriander. Cooled the wort and poured the Cooper's can into the fermenter. Poured the wort into the fermenter through a mesh collinder and topped up to 23L. Aerated wort and pitched the yeast dry at 74*F and stirred well into the wort. Ferm temps were between 72*F and 74*F. Kept in the primary for 3 weeks and bottled.

Liberty Cream Ale (Midwest kit):
6lb Briess Gold LME
8oz Carapils
2oz Cascade pellet hops (7.1% Alpha)
1 11g packet of S-05

Brought 3 gallons of water to a boil, let cool to 155*F. Added 8oz Carapils and let steep for 30 minutes, covered, adding heat as necessary to keep temp. Rehydrated yeast in 90*F water and left covered. After 30 minutes removed Carapils and brought to boil. Turned off heat, removed from burner and slowly stirred in LME. Put back on burner and brought back to boil. Once boil started I added .5oz Cascade pellets and set timer to 30 minutes. At 15 minutes I added .5 oz Cascade pellets. At 2 minutes I added 1oz Cascade pellets. Proofed yeast. Put kettle in ice bath uncovered and cooled to 72*F.

Poured wort through fine mesh collinder into fermenter and topped up with water from tap to 19L. Aerated wort. Pitched rehydrated yeast at 72*F. Used a swamp cooler and kept temps at 64*F until fermentation took off on day 2 (and ambient increased due to heat wave). Temps then went to 68*F with one or two spikes to 70*F (when I didn't swap ice in time) over the first week, then 68*F for the 2nd week. For week 3 I allowed the temp to go up to 72*F while still in the swamp cooler. Racked into my Tap-a-Draft bottles after 3 weeks in primary, then left to age at ambient (~72*F) temps.

Ok, I'm familiar with the Liberty Cream ale. I actually have a batch of it conditioning in bottles right now. Definitely shouldn't have any hammy flavors to that. I have heard of meat-y and/or sulphur-y flavors/aromas when using wheat yeasts though. Check out this thread about meat-y flavors in weissbier.
About the cream ale.... you say you were sure to thoroughly clean and sanitize everything in between these batches. And your temps were fine for that yeast. Do you happen to know the production date or lot # of the packet?
I have to think that with an off flavor carrying over into two batches, and assuming your sanitation regimen is up to par, that you might want to consider your brewing water. A simple way for you to figure out if water may be the cause is to get the Liberty Cream kit again, and brew it using r/o or spring water, but doing everything else, including fermentation temps and schedule, the same as the batch in question. If it comes out different than the one with the off flavor, your usual brewing water is likely the culprit.
When I use my tap water, I pre boil all of the water I'll need. I'll also use Camden tabs to ensure that I've gotten rid of all the chlorine and chloramine.

I understand why folks think it might be the water since it is a common ingredient to both beers, but I don't know of any water chemistry that leads to 'hot dog' flavor.

I suppose it could be autolysis, but that is so rare these days unless your brewing with really poor yeast and are keeping the beer on the yeast cake for a LONG time at elevated temps.

Even after oxyclean and star san, my plastic buckets have a hop/beer aroma to them. To the OP - does your fermenter smell like coriander/hot dogs?

JLem said:

I understand why folks think it might be the water since it is a common ingredient to both beers, but I don't know of any water chemistry that leads to 'hot dog' flavor.

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I'm not convinced a meaty flavor is the most accurate descriptor but that's what OP connects with. Chlorophenols can taste really strange, especially at first. Then they go all medicinal. It can take a couple months for it to reach pure medicinal so it could come off as a less offensive flavor at first.

Even if it was just an ingredient left behind, like coriander, it doesn't explain the change in the rest of the flavor of the cream ale from hoppy to malty. Chlorine/chloramine fits both explanations. Since OP isn't using bleach as a cleaner but is using tap water the only source of chlorine/chloramine coming into the beer is the water.

NordeastBrewer77 said:

Do you happen to know the production date or lot # of the packet?

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I looked at the packet when I got and threw it in the fridge until I was ready for it. I don't recall the date, but it wasn't very old iirc.

JLem said:

To the OP - does your fermenter smell like coriander/hot dogs?

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I'll open it tonight and see. It had a hoppy smell even after I cleaned after I racked the beer.

Edit:
@JLem - I just opened the lid and it smells very strongly of hops; it might even be as strong of hops smell as when I made this batch. I detect no other "off" smells.

Just to clarify, you boiled the coriander for 5 minutes (not 55) until flame-out?

IXVolt said:

Just to clarify, you boiled the coriander for 5 minutes (not 55) until flame-out?

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Correct, 5 minutes until flame out.

NordeastBrewer77 said:

I'll also use Camden tabs to ensure that I've gotten rid of all the chlorine and chloramine.

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I'm thinking this would be cheaper than buying a bunch of spring water from the store. Is the camden rendered inert during your boil so you don't have to worry about it killing your yeast? How many tabs would I add to a partial volume boil (~3 gallons)?

I checked with our water company and they add chloramine and fluoride when treating the water. Does this sound like a good solution to remove the chlorine and chloramine? Boil 6 gallons of water to get the chlorine out, allow it to cool some and add 1/4 camden tab, give it a while to work (how long?), then start my boil. Has anyone heard of fluoride causing off flavors?

you can crush a Camden tablet right into your water without boiling. It works almost instantly, and takes out chlorine and chloramine.

rifraf said:

you can crush a Camden tablet right into your water without boiling. It works almost instantly, and takes out chlorine and chloramine.

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Exactly. The camden should work right away and I've never had it affect the yeast. I think the boil denatures it.

You shouldn't need to boil first, after all you are boiling during brewing and the off flavors are produced with the yeasts reaction to the chlorine.

Thanks for all the help. I'll give it a shot and see how it goes.

Interesting note, as the beer has been sitting in the fridge longer it has also developed a plastic taste, and I'm now picking up a strong alcohol flavor. I got the latter with my previous batch, but the plastic taste is new. I guess it depends on the yeast strain. I guess it is the chloramines after all. Just weird that the beer had none of these flavors for the first 3 or 4 weeks.

goodsuds said:

Interesting note, as the beer has been sitting in the fridge longer it has also developed a plastic taste, and I'm now picking up a strong alcohol flavor. I got the latter with my previous batch, but the plastic taste is new. I guess it depends on the yeast strain. I guess it is the chloramines after all. Just weird that the beer had none of these flavors for the first 3 or 4 weeks.

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Thank you for posting this. My curiosity was getting the best of me for the past few days wondering about the outcome of your experiments with the hot dog beer.

I'll be making a new batch soon and I'll be using a 1/4 camden tab. I had planned on making a pumpkin beer for my wife, but I'm tempted to keep it simple so I can pick up any odd flavors and know they're from the water. I'll post back once I have it bottled and conditioned.

goodsuds said:

I'll be making a new batch soon and I'll be using a 1/4 camden tab. I had planned on making a pumpkin beer for my wife, but I'm tempted to keep it simple so I can pick up any odd flavors and know they're from the water. I'll post back once I have it bottled and conditioned.

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Do that. My pumpkin beer for my wife has weird flavors and I have no idea from what. Wish I'd learned my tablet lesson first.

bchurch said:

You should serve this beer when meeting new people and ask them if they want to try your weiner cream ale.

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Classic! I just bottled my first cream ale should be ready to send out this weekend!

I just bottled this beer a few hours ago. It tasted good when I took my hydrometer reading. I guess it will be another 3-4 weeks before I'm able to tell if the campden worked. I'll post back after I tap my first Tap-a-Draft bottle in 3 weeks or so.

Edit: I went with the American Light Ale kit from Midwest. Not really the style of beer I prefer, but I wanted the most simple flavor profile to see if the campden worked.

Well, I tapped the first TAD bottle. It's carbed up but it still tastes a little green, and I think I think I can taste the plastic taste slightly. I guess after a week or two in the fridge I'll know for sure. I sure hope the campden worked, otherwise I'm going to have 10 gallons of plastic beer again between this batch and the one I'm about to bottle.

goodsuds said:

Well, I tapped the first TAD bottle. It's carbed up but it still tastes a little green, and I think I think I can taste the plastic taste slightly. I guess after a week or two in the fridge I'll know for sure. I sure hope the campden worked, otherwise I'm going to have 10 gallons of plastic beer again between this batch and the one I'm about to bottle.

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I had heard that bitter orange peel can leave a ham after taste, and coriander should actually help counter it. Did you use bitters?

CincinnatiMongoose said:

I had heard that bitter orange peel can leave a ham after taste, and coriander should actually help counter it. Did you use bitters?

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Yes, I believe it was bitter orange. I think the problem were chloramines in the water after all. The batch I've had conditioning in the TAD bottles was pretty much ready to drink last night. It went from green tasting, to almost medicinal to very drinkable in under a week. I think the added CO2 from the TAD cartridge drastically changes the flavor of the beer sometimes.

Anyway, I plan on having a few tonight. I've got another TAD bottle in the fridge cold conditioning and the 3rd is still at room temp. I accidentally racked some of the trub into it, so I'm leaving it at room temp another week and then I'll leave it in the fridge for a few. I should know in the next couple of weeks if the issue was fixed for sure, but I'm pretty certain it was.

Well, it has been 6 weeks since I bottled this and I detect no plastic taste, so I think the campden fixed it. However, I do have a strange taste to this batch that I can't place and I'm wondering if it isn't extract "twang".

I usually do a larger volume boil (at least 3 gallons), but I wanted to follow the recipe the the letter and it was only a 2 gallon boil. The taste is almost hoppy at first, out of character for a light American ale, and then it finishes with a slight sweet and tart taste. The aftertaste reminds me of eating Sweet Tarts as a kid. I kept my fermentation temps under control by using a swamp cooler so I don't know what else it can be. This is also only my 2nd time using the Tap-a-Draft, and I just added the corn sugar (by volume, not weight - 8 tbsp) into the bottle dry and then racked the beer on top of it. Could that be it?