Question about electrical setup.

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amazinglarry104

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I am planning to use a 220V, 5500W heating element. To control it, I want to use this 10000W speed controller in an enclosure with added fan for cooling

http://www.ebay.com/itm/10000W-220V...501?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5af6dcdde5

I'm making this for a friend, and I'm not sure if his outlet is GFCI protected. If it is protected, can I just wire a 3 prong plug on the incoming line to the box and be good to go?

If he doesn't have a GFCI protected outlet, what is the simplest way to get protection?

Thanks!
 
I don't know if that would work people usualy use a pwm in conjunction with a 40 amp ssr to control elements. You would put the ssr on one of the hot legs of the element and control the ssr with the pwm.
 
I've seen those triac based dimmers for $20 from ebay seller 'haruyr_kb'. There has been some debate about whether the heat sink is big enough but it should be able to handle 5500W especially with extra cooling from a fan.

But first find out whether your friend has a 220V outlet that can handle 30A near where he can brew.
 
amazinglarry104 said:
I am planning to use a 220V, 5500W heating element. To control it, I want to use this 10000W speed controller in an enclosure with added fan for cooling

http://www.ebay.com/itm/10000W-220V...501?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5af6dcdde5

I'm making this for a friend, and I'm not sure if his outlet is GFCI protected. If it is protected, can I just wire a 3 prong plug on the incoming line to the box and be good to go?

If he doesn't have a GFCI protected outlet, what is the simplest way to get protection?

Thanks!
Click to expand...

I bought one a couple of years ago. During boil the heat sink got too hot to touch and I did not trust it.

So instead I'm running a SSR with a PWM control circuit out of a SP-2000 stir plate and I have the SSR attached to a heat sink I bought from these guys.
http://www.heatsinkusa.com/4-600-wide-extruded-aluminum-heatsink/

You can have them cut any length you want. I had mine cut 8" long.
 
This would offer gfci protection but it will be cheaper to simply replace the existing 30 amp breaker with a 30 amp gfci breaker. Even if you pay full price for a new breaker you should get out for under $170. And you can save buying a pair of twist lock cord caps.
 
I don't think he has access to replace the breaker because he lives in an apartment. Otherwise this would definitely be the way to go
 
amazinglarry104 said:
Cool, so I could just wire this inline with the power cord and it would essentially be the same as the extension cord with GFCI?
Click to expand...

Yes. It would be best to find out what your friend has available for power (breaker size, wire gauge, number of wires, receptacle type, etc.). You will have to match plug and receptacle, and whether his wiring includes a true ground will determine how to wire the spa panel. Ideally, he has a 30a breaker, with H-H-N-G going to a NEMA 14-30 receptacle, but let us know the reality and we can help.
 
jeffmeh said:
Yes. It would be best to find out what your friend has available for power (breaker size, wire gauge, number of wires, receptacle type, etc.). You will have to match plug and receptacle, and whether his wiring includes a true ground will determine how to wire the spa panel. Ideally, he has a 30a breaker, with H-H-N-G going to a NEMA 14-30 receptacle, but let us know the reality and we can help.
Click to expand...



It turns out he doesn't have 240v in his apartment, but he's trying to find a location he can use. He might even be using it in multiple locations.

Is 20A the lowest amperage a 240 breaker would be? I could just build
everything assuming the worst case scenario.
 
Sounds like you should be looking at a 120 volt setup. Howany gallons do you want to boil?
 
MDHarris said:
Sounds like you should be looking at a 120 volt setup. Howany gallons do you want to boil?
Click to expand...

I really want to make this a 240V system. I may just design it to be used with at least a 20A breaker. I will make sure my friend knows this, so he wont use it with anything less. (I'm not sure if anywhere would even have a 15A breaker for 240V) If worse comes to worst he can use it at my house because I have a 20A breaker.
 
If you have access to an existing 240v, 20a circuit, then you could build a system with a 4500w element, that would draw 18.75a, or less if you really have something less than 240v (like 220v). AFAIK, you really do not need to oversize the circuit using the 80% rule, given that this application does not constitute a continuous load for over 3 hours.

If you have to run a new circuit, then go for at least 30a so you can run a 5500w element.
 
jeffmeh said:
If you have access to an existing 240v, 20a circuit, then you could build a system with a 4500w element, that would draw 18.75a, or less if you really have something less than 240v (like 220v). AFAIK, you really do not need to oversize the circuit using the 80% rule, given that this application does not constitute a continuous load for over 3 hours.

If you have to run a new circuit, then go for at least 30a so you can run a 5500w element.
Click to expand...


Awesome, this sounds great. I'm gonna go with a 4500w element.

So my plan is to use the 4500w element. From there it will go to a controller.
I haven't decided yet, but I'm going to use a still dragon controller

http://www.stilldragon.com/diy-controller.html

or one of these

http://www.ebay.com/itm/10000W-220V...501?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5af6dcdde5


From there it will go into a 50 amp spa panel. Then to a 240 plug. I'm planning to use 10 awg wire for everything since I have a good length of it already. Over sizing the wire shouldn't be an issue right?

thanks for your help btw
 
amazinglarry104 said:
Awesome, this sounds great. I'm gonna go with a 4500w element.

So my plan is to use the 4500w element. From there it will go to a controller.
I haven't decided yet, but I'm going to use a still dragon controller

http://www.stilldragon.com/diy-controller.html

or one of these

http://www.ebay.com/itm/10000W-220V...501?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5af6dcdde5


From there it will go into a 50 amp spa panel. Then to a 240 plug. I'm planning to use 10 awg wire for everything since I have a good length of it already. Over sizing the wire shouldn't be an issue right?

thanks for your help btw
Click to expand...

Oversized wire is fine. In fact, you should make sure you wire everything to handle 30a, so you can power a 5500w element if you ever move to where you have 30a available. The only component that you would change out would be the NEMA 10-20 plug going into the 20a receptacle for a NEMA 10-30 plug into a 30a receptacle.

If you really wanted to future-proof it, you could run 10/4 (H-H-N-G) cable into the spa panel, with a ground wire that you would not connect, so if you ever had a true ground available the wire is there to enable it. A 3 wire in, 4 wire out spa panel works, but a 4 wire in, 4 wire out version is superior from a grounding perspective. We have beaten it to death here. :)
 
jeffmeh said:
Oversized wire is fine. In fact, you should make sure you wire everything to handle 30a, so you can power a 5500w element if you ever move to where you have 30a available. The only component that you would change out would be the NEMA 10-20 plug going into the 20a receptacle for a NEMA 10-30 plug into a 30a receptacle.

If you really wanted to future-proof it, you could run 10/4 (H-H-N-G) cable into the spa panel, with a ground wire that you would not connect, so if you ever had a true ground available the wire is there to enable it. A 3 wire in, 4 wire out spa panel works, but a 4 wire in, 4 wire out version is superior from a grounding perspective. We have beaten it to death here. :)
Click to expand...

OK. Is there any reason I can't run 3 in and 3 out. Wouldn't the neutral wire on the 4 out just get capped anyway since the heating element only has 2 leads?
 
amazinglarry104 said:
OK. Is there any reason I can't run 3 in and 3 out. Wouldn't the neutral wire on the 4 out just get capped anyway since the heating element only has 2 leads?
Click to expand...

4 out (H-H-N-G) is valuable because it enables you to run a control panel that has 240v for the elements, and 120v for switches, lights, PIDs, timers, pumps, etc. You derive the 120v from one of the hots and the neutral. Ideally, you have those 4 wires all the way from the circuit breaker, through the spa panel GFI, to the control panel.

So if you ran 10/4 both into and out of the spa panel, even if you were not using it now, it would be a fairly simple matter to rewire the spa panel in any of its possible configurations.

Let's back up a bit and specify exactly what you plan to have from the breaker panel moving forward. E.g., 20a 240v breaker, 10/4 to a NEMA 14-20receptacle, ....

It's much easier to revise at this stage than once you start wiring, lol.
 
jeffmeh said:
4 out (H-H-N-G) is valuable because it enables you to run a control panel that has 240v for the elements, and 120v for switches, lights, PIDs, timers, pumps, etc. You derive the 120v from one of the hots and the neutral. Ideally, you have those 4 wires all the way from the circuit breaker, through the spa panel GFI, to the control panel.

So if you ran 10/4 both into and out of the spa panel, even if you were not using it now, it would be a fairly simple matter to rewire the spa panel in any of its possible configurations.

Let's back up a bit and specify exactly what you plan to have from the breaker panel moving forward. E.g., 20a 240v breaker, 10/4 to a NEMA 14-20receptacle, ....

It's much easier to revise at this stage than once you start wiring, lol.
Click to expand...

OK. I'll tell you what I was initially thinking.
20a 240V breaker, 10/3 wired directly into 50a gfi protected spa panel, 10/3 wired directly from spa panel to still dragon 240v controller, 10/3 from controller to 4500w heating element.

I'm trying to go with something as simple as possible at this point. I won't need any other controls or anything thats 120V coming off of this.

If I can use 10/3 that would be best for me because I already have bunch it, and I'm on a pretty tight budget. Don't want to do anything foolish though.
 
So here are my concerns:

I don't think you can wire a new circuit with H-H-N (no ground) and be code compliant. I do think you can wire H-H-G and be code compliant. If I am correct, then you should wire the circuit with H-H-G. If your 10/3 has a bare ground wire, then it is obviously the ground. If it has black, red, white, then you can use green electrical tape around the white wire everywhere it connects to visibly identify it as the ground.

Regarding wiring the spa panel, with H-H-G in and H-H-G out, I would have to defer to someone more knowledgeable than I. I THINK that you attach the ground wire to the neutral bus, then jump it to the ground bus, and then out of the panel, and you don't run a neutral out of the breaker (other than the supplied pigtail attached to the neutral bus).

Now, when you say that you are wiring directly into the subpanel, that is fine, but that is a permanent installation. If you terminate the circuit with a NEMA 5-20 receptacle, then you can take it with you. Then you would have a NEMA 5-20 plug on the end of the line that feeds the spa panel. The same logic applies to the controller and element, as you probably want to be able to unplug the controller from the spa panel, and unplug the element from the controller.

So, I think this will work, but hopefully a "real" electrician will chime in and confirm, particularly regarding the spa panel wiring.

I would still consider putting in a 30a circuit (with NEMA 5-30 plugs and receptacles), so you can go to 5500w. It will save you some time on brew days.

Lastly, if it were me, I would run 10/4, but I understand you already have the 10/3. If you did run 10/4, I would at least be able to walk you through it without so many disclaimers. :)
 
jeffmeh said:
So here are my concerns:

I don't think you can wire a new circuit with H-H-N (no ground) and be code compliant. I do think you can wire H-H-G and be code compliant. If I am correct, then you should wire the circuit with H-H-G. If your 10/3 has a bare ground wire, then it is obviously the ground. If it has black, red, white, then you can use green electrical tape around the white wire everywhere it connects to visibly identify it as the ground.

Regarding wiring the spa panel, with H-H-G in and H-H-G out, I would have to defer to someone more knowledgeable than I. I THINK that you attach the ground wire to the neutral bus, then jump it to the ground bus, and then out of the panel, and you don't run a neutral out of the breaker (other than the supplied pigtail attached to the neutral bus).

Now, when you say that you are wiring directly into the subpanel, that is fine, but that is a permanent installation. If you terminate the circuit with a NEMA 5-20 receptacle, then you can take it with you. Then you would have a NEMA 5-20 plug on the end of the line that feeds the spa panel. The same logic applies to the controller and element, as you probably want to be able to unplug the controller from the spa panel, and unplug the element from the controller.

So, I think this will work, but hopefully a "real" electrician will chime in and confirm, particularly regarding the spa panel wiring.

I would still consider putting in a 30a circuit (with NEMA 5-30 plugs and receptacles), so you can go to 5500w. It will save you some time on brew days.

Lastly, if it were me, I would run 10/4, but I understand you already have the 10/3. If you did run 10/4, I would at least be able to walk you through it without so many disclaimers. :)
Click to expand...


Ok, I was at home depot today and looking at 10/4. it's cheaper than I thought so I might just get some to avoid confusion.
I made this sketch just to show the wiring. I'm not entirely sure about the spa panel, so I just wanted to confirm and see if I'm doing something wrong.


195934262085440462263699.png
 
jeffmeh said:
Look at post #3 here, to see the correct spa panel wiring. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/question-about-gfci-spa-panel-429529/

In your case, the neutral is not needed going out. That said, if you wire it with 10/4 going out, and just cap off the neutral line, you now have a portable GFCI that is easily reconfigured to support 120v as well as 240v.
Click to expand...



Cool. Isn't that picture for 4 in 4 out?
I used this as a reference for my little drawing

http://cdn.homebrewtalk.com/attachments/f170/70678d1344045634-spa-panel-help-image-4048289385.jpg

I just changed the colors to match what I have. My 10/3 wire has black, white, and green. So the black and white would be the hot legs coming in, and the green would be ground. In the picture I referenced, I believe blue and red are hot and yellow is ground. Going out I will have black, red, green, and white. So black and red would be hot, green would be the ground, and white would be the neutral coming out that gets the jumper from the ground on the incoming side.

Sorry for dragging this out so much, I just want to be positive I'm doing it correctly. Thanks again for your help!
 
A 3 wire dryer outlet is powered with 240V (2 hot lines) and neutral (not ground) as the dryer has both 240V and 120V devices within it.
With that said it is fairly easy to break out the power for a plug-in Spa Panel.

power-panel-6.jpg


Ground is developed in a similar manner as the way the dryer is set up.

Keep in mind that this cannot be hard wired to the mains panel and must be set up as a plug in device.

P-J
 
We are talking about a new circuit here, so I am assuming wiring a new H-H-N dryer outlet circuit is a violation of code.

To clarify my latest thinking, I am recommending wiring 30a, 10-4 for the whole run (circuit breaker to NEMA 14-30 receptacle, to spa panel, to controller). This provides the most flexible circuit in the permanent installation, and in the spa panel (and to and from). Since the OP is considering a 240v only PWM, the neutral coming out of the spa panel would not be used, but I would expect it to be a 4-in, 4-out spa panel wiring, with the exception that the neutral wire going out would be capped off at the controller end and not connected to the controller.

If I have that right, and that is what the OP chooses to do, then I would expect him to use P-J's 4-in, 4-out, spa panel diagram that I linked to in a previous post.

As always, if I missed something, feel free to correct me. :)
 
jeffmeh said:
We are talking about a new circuit here, so I am assuming wiring a new H-H-N dryer outlet circuit is a violation of code.

To clarify my latest thinking, I am recommending wiring 30a, 10-4 for the whole run (circuit breaker to NEMA 14-30 receptacle, to spa panel, to controller). This provides the most flexible circuit in the permanent installation, and in the spa panel (and to and from). Since the OP is considering a 240v only PWM, the neutral coming out of the spa panel would not be used, but I would expect it to be a 4-in, 4-out spa panel wiring, with the exception that the neutral wire going out would be capped off at the controller end and not connected to the controller.

If I have that right, and that is what the OP chooses to do, then I would expect him to use P-J's 4-in, 4-out, spa panel diagram that I linked to in a previous post.

As always, if I missed something, feel free to correct me. :)
Click to expand...

This won't be a new circuit. I will either use a 20A dryer outlet or the one in my garage which is also 3 wire. So It's my understanding that I would wire it like the image PJ posted. I was just slightly unsure about the colors because my 10/3 wire is black, white, green.

Just to clarify, in PJ's image, blue=hot, red=hot, yellow= neutral, and green = ground. Is that correct?

So in my control box, the neutral ( yellow) would get capped off, and green would serve as the ground for the tank?
 
Sorry, I got my threads crossed. Serves me right for posting when I should be sleeping.

Yes on using P-J's 3 in, 4 out diagram, and on the color coding.
 
jeffmeh said:
Sorry, I got my threads crossed. Serves me right for posting when I should be sleeping.

Yes on using P-J's 3 in, 4 out diagram, and on the color coding.
Click to expand...



Awesome, thanks. looks like I'm good to go then. Should be getting all my stuff in the mail today.
 
jeffmeh said:
Sorry, I got my threads crossed. Serves me right for posting when I should be sleeping.

Yes on using P-J's 3 in, 4 out diagram, and on the color coding.
Click to expand...



One more question :)

Let's say someday I do have access to a 4 prong receptacle. I will have a 3 prong plug bringing power to my spa panel.

So would I just be able to get a 4 prong plug to match the receptacle and only connect the 2 hots and neutral (leave ground empty on the plug)?
 
amazinglarry104 said:
One more question :)

Let's say someday I do have access to a 4 prong receptacle. I will have a 3 prong plug bringing power to my spa panel.

So would I just be able to get a 4 prong plug to match the receptacle and only connect the 2 hots and neutral (leave ground empty on the plug)?
Click to expand...

If you get access to a 4 prong plug, you could just wire H-H-N in a NEMA 14 plug and it would work just like you are wiring H-H-N in a NEMA 10 plug now.

That would work, but it would be better to wire H-H-N-G and rewire your spa panel with 4 in and 4 out, to gain a true ground.
 
amazinglarry104 said:
One more question :)

Let's say someday I do have access to a 4 prong receptacle. I will have a 3 prong plug bringing power to my spa panel.

So would I just be able to get a 4 prong plug to match the receptacle and only connect the 2 hots and neutral (leave ground empty on the plug)?
Click to expand...
No. With the change to a 4 prong dryer outlet you would wire it this way:

power-panel-5b.jpg


I hope this helps you.

P-J
 
P-J said:
No. With the change to a 4 prong dryer outlet you would wire it this way:

power-panel-5b.jpg


I hope this helps you.

P-J
Click to expand...



Gotchya. So I would need to rewire.

I would still keep the neutral capped off in my control box if I'm not using it correct?
 
Which controller did you decide on, StillDragon? I am looking at the same controller and I had the same exact question you did about the neutral line.

I plan to add a GFCI breaker and run a line. I brew in the garage and the service panel is in the garage so it all works well for me.

Please post pics as soon as you begin your build!
 
hio3791 said:
Which controller did you decide on, StillDragon? I am looking at the same controller and I had the same exact question you did about the neutral line.

I plan to add a GFCI breaker and run a line. I brew in the garage and the service panel is in the garage so it all works well for me.

Please post pics as soon as you begin your build!
Click to expand...

Yea, I got the stilldragon controller. I'm going to put it together today hopefully.
 
Hey guys, got everything wired up. I just wanted to triple check and make sure I did everything correctly. I remade this sketch of exactly how I wired it. If someone could take a look again that would be awesome. thanks!


rsvko2.jpg
 

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