1st Time Kegging - CO2 Question

I put this post in the beginners section....I guess it should probably go here?

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/1st-time-kegging-co2-question-394808/#post4967574

Ok, here's the story:

LTB in Moore, OK sold me a "reconditioned" keg with old o-rings, so my CO2 tank was hooked up to the 5 gallon Cornelius keg for 3 days and the full CO2 tank went empty (they denied it). The beer never carbonated. I took off the "in" ball lock really fast with the beer still in the keg, and replaced the upper o-ring and also added keg lube. it doesn't leak anymore.

Then I hooked it up to 30 PSI (Shock Top clone, so I want high cabonation) to the "out" ball lock after reading a post about it carbonating the beer better since it goes down the dip tube. No leaks still, but tonight (after 2 days) I realized that I forgot to purge the head space of Oxygen the second time. I think oxygen is supposed to flatten the beer and ruin the taste, right?

So I tried to release some gas from the top release tab, and the whole keg vibrated, shaking the kitchen floor, and the I heard a "glug, glug, glug" sound that was pretty loud. Is this normal?

As of now, I'm just going to leave it alone until the 5 days is up. I wanted the beer to be ready in less than a week, so that's why I picked 30 PSI, and 30 is what was on the CO2 chart I found for Belgian Wheats. Temp of keg and tank is 62 degrees F (mini fridge is still in the mail).

If you hooked the Co2 up to the "out" tube, that means the co2 is going to enter the beer from the bottom. This is for sure the glug glug sound you heard. big bubbles of co2 bubbling through the beer. A word of advice, if you continue to hook the gas up to the beer side MAKE SURE you use the correct disconnect (i.e. gray for gas, black for beer). Those posts on the keg look identical but they are not. It can be an absolute nightmare getting the disconnect off the wrong post. You can end up breaking them to do it too. SO use the black QD for the beer side even if you're pushing co2 through it.

Also, make sure that when you get the mini fridge, you re-adjust the co2 pressure for the temp you'll have the beer at. 30psi sounds kind of high for beer in the 40-45F range. at 62F 30psi is 2.74 volumes of co2 so thats not bad, but at 40F it's 4.10 which is higher than I've usually seen. Soda is usually carbonated at 4ish volumes of co2.

I did have the grey gas line hooked up to the out line. The hoses I have can't be disconnected, they are permanent. Next time I'll just hook it up to the in line.

So after the 5 days at 30 PSI, I have to burp the keg? Does that mean letting out ALL of the air out of the keg through the grey release tab on the middle of the keg? Then it gets served at 6-12 PSI?

Thanks.

You just need to bleed off enough gas that the regulator kicks in and gets it back up to the right pressure. No need to bleed it ALL off, just enough to know that the keg is now at regulator pressure.

Make sure you use a carbonation chart and use the right pressure for the temperature and volumes of co2 you're shooting for: http://www.kegerators.com/carbonation-table.php

spaceyaquarius said:

I did have the grey gas line hooked up to the out line. The hoses I have can't be disconnected, they are permanent. Next time I'll just hook it up to the in line.

So after the 5 days at 30 PSI, I have to burp the keg? Does that mean letting out ALL of the air out of the keg through the grey release tab on the middle of the keg? Then it gets served at 6-12 PSI?

Thanks.

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Hello, be careful not to back flow beer into your regulator, yes you need to purge some Co2 out of the keg to dispense your beer.

I would read up on how to purge/lower pressure properly so you done run into problems gunking up your regulator.

Cheers

#1, the store that sold you the keg is totally not at fault. I'm not sure what you think they were "denying," but when you buy a reconditioned keg (which is pretty much all of them these days), it's common knowledge that you will need to replace - or at least thoroughly clean and re-lube - the O-ring seals.

#2, as mentioned, the QDs and keg posts are not interchangeable. If you take your gas QD and connect it to your "Out" keg post, you will have a b*tch of a time getting it off again. The posts are different.

#3, yes, you most definitely should purge the oxygen from the keg when you are carbonating. However, if you're pressurizing from the bottom (which you are, since you're feeding CO2 in from the dip tube), then when you relieve pressure at the top, then obviously a bunch of CO2 (which was previously being held in equilibrium by the pressure in the headspace) is going to gush out of the pick-up tube, causing the gurgling you heard. That's not necessarily bad for your beer, but it can be disconcerting and noisy. The solution is to close the valve on the CO2 tank while venting, then slowly re-open the CO2 tank's valve again and let the pressure gently re-stabilize.

#4, CO2 goes into solution much easier at colder temperatures, so as noted, you will need to use a considerably high pressure in order to carbonate at room temperature.

#5, You should typically allow at least 2 full weeks to fully carbonate your beer. Trying to have it ready in a week - particularly at room temperature - is going to be a challenge.

Good luck, it's a learning process, but it's a fun one!

I just wanted to point out to the original poster (OP) that all of the responses are genial and helpful.

Let's make sure that we're on the same page with the forum rules on this. Any insults to others' blog posts and the like do carry through to the forum, and our forum is a friendly place. This is just a "heads up" to the OP to try to remember some manners.

Just two minor points where I disagree.

First of all, "reconditioned" means something different than merely "used". Reconditioned should mean new O rings, lubed and leak tested. Used means you takes your chances, normally at a lower price. So if your dealer told you it was reconditioned, then I think you were right to expect not have needed to replace the O rings. But it sounds like you learned a lot from it, so maybe it isn't such a bad thing.

Secondly, once you have your kegerator, or now if you're in a cold climate, you can force carbonate a keg in a few hours. First, you do need some headspace. This works great when I make a 3 gal BIAB batch and put it in a 5 gal keg, but it will even work with as little as 5 or 6 inches of headspace. Chill the keg of beer as cold as you can, apply a small amount of CO2 pressure, and vent out the air. Let it sit a few minutes and repeat, just to make sure you have all of the air out. Then increase the co2 pressure to about 30 psi.

(It doesn't matter which connection you use for this, but I prefer using the gas inlet so there's less chance of backflowing beer into your regulator later on as previously mentioned.)

Lift the keg and shake the bejeesus out of it until the regulator stops hissing. (If it's too heavy for you, then lay it on the floor and rock it as much as possible.) Let it sit and adjust for 5 or 10 minutes then shake it again. The colder it is, the more CO2 will go into solution. Repeat a third time.

Now turn off the gas and slowly vent the pressure from the keg. Let it sit a half hour or so then draw a glass and see what happens. This is just guesswork as to when to stop, and if you overshoot you'll need to keep venting it until you're down to desired carbonation, but it still takes a lot less time than merely applying pressure and letting it sit for a week.

Make sure to check your carbonation chart to set the pressure properly for your desired serving temperature, and I always turn off the pressure at the end of the day, just in case I have a leaky fitting somewhere.

One big advantage to this method, aside from getting to drink your brew sooner, is the problem of leaking gas. As you discovered, a tiny leak can cost you a tank of gas if left for a week. With this method your gas is only on for a few hours, so if you do have a pinhole leak you'll only lose a small amount of gas. I never leave my gas on for extended periods - when I'm done for the day it gets turned off.

A leak will eventually become an operational pita. And I totally don't get working around a known leak instead of fixing it.

I have two separate gas systems with 6 kegs always on tap and up to four more carbing, and I never disconnect or turn off anything.

It did require due diligence to assemble both systems, refurb each keg, and test everything that could be tested for leaks before starting to fill kegs. But I haven't lost a bit of gas in two years, keg swaps are a total non-event, and everything is virtually on autopilot at this point...

Cheers!

kentmich said:

Chill the keg of beer as cold as you can..... Then increase the co2 pressure to about 30 psi.

Lift the keg and shake the bejeesus out of it until the regulator stops hissing.

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If you shake a chilled keg at 30psi until you no longer hear gas entering, the beer will have reached equilibrium with the 30 psi (or very close to it), severely overcarbonating it (unless you're going for a lambic carbed to 4+ vol). It's very difficult to gauge just how much carbonation you're adding when you're both increasing the pressure and agitating the keg. I suggest either shaking the keg at serving pressure until it stops absorbing the gas, or cranking the pressure up to 30psi for 36 hrs without shaking. Both is a recipe for disaster, as evidenced by the plethora of "my beer is all foam" threads this method causes here.

Juan is correct - I misspoke. I do the shake until it stops thing at the proper pressure for the style and temp, not 30psi. Hope he caught you in time.

Lots of information to go over ...thanks everyone!

WileECoyote said:

Hello, be careful not to back flow beer into your regulator, yes you need to purge some Co2 out of the keg to dispense your beer.

I would read up on how to purge/lower pressure properly so you done run into problems gunking up your regulator.

Cheers

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Ok, for now I'll carbonate using the in-line until I know more. I don't want to screw up my brand new dual regulator. The shaking process seems a little iffy at this point (for me). The carbonation process with this batch has been all screwed up, so I'll have to start over with the next batch and implement and record a carbonation process.

kombat said:

#1, the store that sold you the keg is totally not at fault. I'm not sure what you think they were "denying," but when you buy a reconditioned keg (which is pretty much all of them these days), it's common knowledge that you will need to replace - or at least thoroughly clean and re-lube - the O-ring seals.

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It's not common knowledge to a 19 year old girlfriend trying to buy a secret birthday present for her boyfriend. They showed her a brand new Corny keg in their window, she says she'll buy it, then 45 minutes later sold her a scratched up Corny keg which leaked the 1st day it was hooked up to pressure. I've never owned a keg before, so it's only common knowledge after the fact. They could have sold the o-ring replacement kit/keg lube along with the "reconditioned keg" that they didn't test. The o-ring that was leaking was so old and dessicated, that it fell apart when the needle nose pliers touched it.

When I went back to give them a chance to say "oops, we forgot", or "you should have known", they looked at each other, and then said nothing. The guy in charge denied that the o-ring was not replaced. Then I paid $20 for o-rings and a 5 pound CO2 refill. Keep in mind not one thing in their store has a price tag on it. I know newbies get screwed, I can suck it up (that's what she said).

Hasn't everyone been 'taken' at some point? It makes you feel like a tool. Before my new mini-fridge came in the mail, I bought a $50 mini-fridge off Craigslist and it died 2 days later. The guy won't pick up the phone of course. I got burned twice in 1 week.

spaceyaquarius said:

It's not common knowledge to a 19 year old girlfriend trying to buy a secret birthday present for her boyfriend. They showed her a brand new Corny keg in their window, she says she'll buy it, then 45 minutes later sold her a scratched up Corny keg which leaked the 1st day it was hooked up to pressure. I've never owned a keg before, so it's only common knowledge after the fact. They could have sold the o-ring replacement kit/keg lube along with the "reconditioned keg" that they didn't test. The o-ring that was leaking was so old and dessicated, that it fell apart when the needle nose pliers touched it.

When I went back to give them a chance to say "oops, we forgot", or "you should have known", they looked at each other, and then said nothing. The guy in charge denied that the o-ring was not replaced. Then I paid $20 for o-rings and a 5 pound CO2 refill. Keep in mind not one thing in their store has a price tag on it. I know newbies get screwed, I can suck it up (that's what she said).

Hasn't everyone been 'taken' at some point? It makes you feel like a tool. Before my new mini-fridge came in the mail, I bought a $50 mini-fridge off Craigslist and it died 2 days later. The guy won't pick up the phone of course. I got burned twice in 1 week.

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I understand your frustration but if you weren't happy with the place you shouldn't have continued to buy from them. Craigslist doesn't come with a money back guarantee.

Make a posting in the General area like, Looking for a good brewstore in the ____________ area. Hopefully someone can point you to a better place of business.

Of course, there's always mailorder. I've always been pleased with austinhomebrew.com, northernbrewer.com, morebeer.com, stpats.com, and my local brewstore beer-wine.com. I try the GOOD locals first, but sometimes they don't carry all the goodies the big mailorder houses have.

At the very least, take your CO2 purchases elsewhere. Look in the yellow pages under Welding Supplies or Gasses, and you might find you save a bit too. Be aware that many of them will only fill your own tank after a delay, if at all. Most of them do the filling off-site and simply exchange tanks with their commercial customers. It's hard to say goodbye to your brand new shiny tank and get back an old-looking scratched up one, but that's the way it is. In the end, a tank is just a tank, and maybe when you trade that one in you'll get a new one in exchange. (Not really. After 10+ years of kegging, I don't think I've ever gotten a new tank back... I don't know what they do with them.)

Ok, now I feel like an idiot. The CO2 was on 30 PSI for 5 days, then I turned it off completely for 2 days since I was out of town. Then hooked it up to 10 PSI for 24 hours. Now the beer is coming out flat and it tastes weird.

There's an inch of head on the top, the glass is not all foam. Is it under carbonated still? There aren't any bubbles coming out of the beer. It's on 10 PSI right now. I'm going to leave it at 10 for now.

What temp is the beer at now? And what carb level are you shooting for? With those two pieces of info we can give you advice. 10-11 psi is usually a good average carbonation level if the beer is at 40F. It also takes a few days for the flavors to meld when you're carbonating. So it tasting funny wouldn't worry me too much yet. Give it a little time at the right psi and taste it every day to see how the flavors change.

We can't really say what the level of carbonation is right now unfortunately. That's the risk of using the burst carb method. It's imprecise. If you think it is under carbed then definitely just leave it on the gas and it'll get to the right level over the next few days or a week.

zeekage said:

What temp is the beer at now? And what carb level are you shooting for? If you think it is under carbed then definitely just leave it on the gas and it'll get to the right level over the next few days or a week.

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The beer is in the mini-fridge at 40 degrees F. I'd like a nice 3.0 carbonation. I didn't shake the keg at all after reading a few posts. I'll just wait and test it once a day.

Thanks.

spaceyaquarius said:

The beer is in the mini-fridge at 40 degrees F. I'd like a nice 3.0 carbonation. I didn't shake the keg at all after reading a few posts. I'll just wait and test it once a day.

Thanks.

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Well for 3.0 volumes of co2 at 40F you'll need 18PSI 3.0 is higher than most American ales are carbonated to but if you want it that highly carbed you'll need to bump the pressure up.

For reference: http://www.kegerators.com/carbonation-table.php

zeekage said:

Well for 3.0 volumes of co2 at 40F you'll need 18PSI 3.0 is higher than most American ales are carbonated to but if you want it that highly carbed you'll need to bump the pressure up.

For reference: http://www.kegerators.com/carbonation-table.php

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Let's see, I had the CO2 at 30 PSI for 5 days, then turned it off completely for 2 days. Then burped the keg and turned it to 10 PSI for 1 day. Now it's flat and tastes bad. Isn't serving pressure 6-12 PSI? I'm thinking of pouring it out, is there a chance the batch is ruined taste-wise?

I have a new batch ready to be kegged, so what do you think?

spaceyaquarius said:

Let's see, I had the CO2 at 30 PSI for 5 days, then turned it off completely for 2 days. Then burped the keg and turned it to 10 PSI for 1 day. Now it's flat and tastes bad. Isn't serving pressure 6-12 PSI? I'm thinking of pouring it out, is there a chance the batch is ruined taste-wise?

I have a new batch ready to be kegged, so what do you think?

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Serving pressure depends on the carbonation level and temperature, and can be found using the chart zeekage linked above. There aren't separate pressures for carbonation and serving, they're one and the same. If you carb your beer to 3.0 vol, but then serve it at 40° and 10psi, you'll lose CO2 every time you pour a beer until the carbonation level reaches equilibrium with the pressure at 2.3 vol (per the chart). And FWIW to serve a beer at 40° and 3.0vol, you're going to need really long lines to prevent the pour from being a foamy mess.

Messing with the carbonation isn't going to ruin the flavor of the beer. Overcarbonation can result in a slightly sour carbonic acid "bite", but that's about it. Any other flavor issues are coming from somewhere else.

JuanMoore said:

Messing with the carbonation isn't going to ruin the flavor of the beer. Overcarbonation can result in a slightly sour carbonic acid "bite", but that's about it. Any other flavor issues are coming from somewhere else.

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I would think that it should be overcarbonated at this point, after so long at 30 PSI, but I don't see bubbles coming out of the beer, and it tastes flat. It does have a aftertaste to it.

I set it to 18 PSI now since it's at 40 F and will see what happens.

spaceyaquarius said:

I would think that it should be overcarbonated at this point, after so long at 30 PSI, but I don't see bubbles coming out of the beer, and it tastes flat. It does have a aftertaste to it.

I set it to 18 PSI now since it's at 40 F and will see what happens.

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IIRC your beer was at 30psi when it was at 62 degrees right? Warmer beer absorbs less co2 than colder beer. So 30psi at 62 F is only 2.7 volumes of co2 so it's probably not over carbonated yet. Leave it at 18psi if u want 3 volumes of co2 and test it daily. There's definitely no reason to dump it just based on what you've done to it pressure-wise.

Ok, leaving it at 18 PSI and will check once a day.

Thanks.

So now the beer tastes better, but still has a bitter aftertaste. The glasses are pouring with half head and half beer. Could it have gone from undercarbonated to overcarbonated in one day? Maybe it still needs a day or two, since I haven't belched yet after drinking 2 glasses.

Keg is at 36 degrees F and 16 PSI.

Next time I'm doing the set it and forget it method. Force carbonating didn't work for me at all.

spaceyaquarius said:

So now the beer tastes better, but still has a bitter aftertaste. The glasses are pouring with half head and half beer. Could it have gone from undercarbonated to overcarbonated in one day? Maybe it still needs a day or two, since I haven't belched yet after drinking 2 glasses.

Keg is at 36 degrees F and 16 PSI.

Next time I'm doing the set it and forget it method. Force carbonating didn't work for me at all.

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16 PSI's is almost twice as much as you want to serve beer at, unless you have like 30 ft serving hoses, run your serving pressure anywhere from 7 to 11 lbs, I would try 9 psi and adjust from their, that should get you into the ballpark.

If I were you, I would also read up on keg carbing and keg serving pressures, the threads under these two searches will explain everything and help you understand the process.

This is what I did, and it helped so much with kegging/carbing/serving pressures, their is so many variables in this process that you really need to do some research to figure out what will work best for you and your system and brews.

Cheers

Also just an fyi and imo, I have also found that when using Co2 to carb my beers, the taste is much better after 8 to 10 days of being on the gas, anything before that and it just dosn't taste right (ether forced or forget it)

When my beers are on the gas (forget it method) I set my regulator at 9 psi and leave it for 10 days at 38 deg before tasting, this seems to work very good for me and my system.

Hope this helps

Cheers

I never bother using the outlet to carbonate. The CO2 gets in eventually.

If I am in a hurry, I use a higher pressure than desired (eg. 30 PSI in a beer at 40F that I plan to serve with 12 PSI), put the keg on it's side and rock it like a baby in my arms for 10 minutes or so. You will hear/feel gas running into the keg as you agitate. I always keep the air inlet valve up to avoid backflow into the air line. Caution advised b/c you may overcarb. Frequent sampling during the carbing process will help avoid this adverse event

WileECoyote said:

Also just an fyi and imo, I have also found that when using Co2 to carb my beers, the taste is much better after 8 to 10 days of being on the gas, anything before that and it just dosn't taste right (ether forced or forget it)

When my beers are on the gas (forget it method) I set my regulator at 9 psi and leave it for 10 days at 38 deg before tasting, this seems to work very good for me and my system.

Hope this helps

Cheers

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You're right. Even after 36 more hours, it tastes better and looks better. It's a Belgian Wheat, so the chart says 18 PSI, but it doesn't take into account line length, and it seems 18 PSI is too high no matter what for serving pressure. I put it back down to 9 PSI and it's looking better every day.

Thanks Everyone! I was being impatient on my 1st keg. Next time it's serving pressure only and check it once a day.

Heh, I've had my keg system for over two years and I'm still learning things. Somewhere along the line I forgot that it's EITHER 30 lbs for 24 hours OR shake at desired pressure, and I did both, completely overcarbing my recent IPA.

Like any new tool, a CO2 and keg setup takes time to master. It's easy to oversell how easy a kegerator is to use, forgetting that it can be hard for someone just getting started to tell one good approach from another completely incompatible good approach.

The good news is that CO2 isn't generally that expensive, and there's no damage you're likely to do to your beer that some "purging time" off the pressure won't fix.

Years of enjoyment await. Sounds like you're on track! :rockin:

-Rich

Cool, thanks everyone for the input. The force carbonation process wasn't as easy as it sounded. I can wait 7-10 days next time at serving pressure. That beer line equation can't be right, I'm sure 10 feet of lines would be better than my 4.7 foot line.

Thanks!!!

Just FYI (and to summarzie), after having an o-ring leak, refilling my new CO2 tank for $12, then attempting to force carbonate at 30 PSI at 62 F, then releasing all the head space pressure, then setting the PSI to 19 in a mini-fridge for days. . . then the beer tasted flat while also having half of a pint glass of foam (beer lines were not warm). Then 4 days later the foam completely disappeared but the taste was so bitter and acidic I poured out the last 1/6th of the 5 gallon Corny keg!

Crap! I screwed this up so much that I went from undercarbonated beer to overcarbonated beer and it never tasted good the whole time. There is one more issue, I let the wort get too hot while steeping the grains (over 200 degrees F). I've read that tannis leeches out and will cause a bitter taste. What did I not do wrong in my 1st kegging?

No more force carbonating for me. I wouldn't recommend it for anyone who is kegging for the 1st time. I just kegged my 1st Blue Moon clone and am just going to set it at 10 PSI and wait 7-10 days to try it. Set it and forget it.

spaceyaquarius said:

No more force carbonating for me. I wouldn't recommend it for anyone who is kegging for the 1st time. I just kegged my 1st Blue Moon clone and am just going to set it at 10 PSI and wait 7-10 days to try it. Set it and forget it.

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Yeah right, I'm a liar.

Slow or fast forced carbonating are both called force carbonating. Only (natural) corn sugar carbonation is not called forced.

I've only slow force-carbonated since then. It literally took me about 4 more kegs to figure out that my CO2 regulator gauge was reading wrong, I bought a new one and of course had old seals for every single seal of the "reconditioned keg" that was sold for $100.

I've also learned the hard way that no matter what the recipe states, one week of conditioning/carbonating does not work (at least not for ales). It takes me 2.5 to 4 weeks to properly slow-force carbonate my 5-gallon keg at serving pressure ("set it and forget it method").

The 30 PSI thing for 2-3 days, and the rocking the keg back and forth under 30 PSI never worked for me. All I got was over-carbed beer that tasted horrible.