Recipe Discussion : Helles from Brouwerij Boerderij Kabouter

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

Boerderij_Kabouter

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2007
Messages
7,763
Reaction score
178
Location
Oconomowoc, Wisconsin
I will be brewing my first of many iterations of Helles in early January. This will be my first lager and I want to run my whole process by all of you. Please critique my process recipe and anything else you can think of.

First, there is some info in this thread about Helles in general and Augustiner in particular.

I will be constructing my fermentation and lagering chamber in the coming weeks to support all my temperature issues. It will be modeled after John Beere's setup.

So here is my plan:

Dec 27:
1) Brew 5g of Honey Lite Lager
2) Split the batch into two primaries (2.5g each).
3) Pitch one activator pack into each fermenter (Wyeast 2206 - Bavarian Lager into one, and 2308 - Munich Lager into the other)
4) Ferment at 50º for 14 days

Jan 10:
1) Set up brewery
2) Mash in 22# Pilsner malt with 24 qts. liquor (1.1 qts/#) to reach a 133º protein rest.
3) Hold protein rest for 30 minutes
4) Infuse 5 qts. boiling water (1.3 qts/#) and raise mash temp to 145º for 15 minutes
5) Pull 1/3 of the mash and decoct for 20 minutes while remainder of mash stays at 145º
6) Reintroduce Decoction and infuse with 5 qts. boiling water (1.5 qts/#) and raise mash to 157º for 15 minutes
7) Pull 1/3 of the mash and decoct for 20 minutes while remainder of mash stays at 157º
8) Reintroduce Decoction to mash and raise to mash out to 168º

9) Fly-sparge over 45 minutes

10) Add 5 AAU Hallertau hops before boil for a first wort hopping (I will have more questions about this later)
11) Boil for 90 minutes
12) 0.5 oz Hallertau at 15 minutes along with some irish moss

13) Cool with whirlpooling immersion chiller

14) While cooling wort down to 48º, transfer the honey lite lager into secondaries
15) Transfer Helles wort onto yeast cakes.

16) Primary ferment at 50º for about 14 days
17) Transfer to a corny keg and lower temp by 3 degrees per day until at lagering temp of 34º
18) Lager for 2 months

I know I don't have my exact hop schedule down, but that is my idea. What do you think of all this? Does that sound like what you do? All comments and criticisms welcome! :mug:
 
I would show this beer a flashcard of a hop for 60 minutes, that's it. I would never use a 15 minute addition in a Helles. I think the hop flavor ruins the style, seems like a wimpy pilsner instead of a Helles.

Otherwise this sounds like it will absolutely rock. :rockin:

I look forward to seeing which yeast you like better.
 
So you would not use any flavor or aroma additions... sold. What do you think of the FWH idea? I have not done it before but it sounds like the advantages would play well for this style.... thoughts?
 
Overall I think it looks great. Couple of comments:

-Are you sure you're set on your mash schedule? Are you sure 1/3 mash will get you your target temps of 145° and 168°? I haven't checked that it won't, but I'm just making sure the amounts are right. If you have Beersmith, it will tell you exactly how many qts to pull and it's been right for me. You could simplify it and still get close (if not the same) benefits by mashing in to ~133°, wait 5 minutes, pull decoction and raise decoction to mid-150s°, hold decoction there for 10 minutes, then raise to boiling and boil for 5 min., then return decoction which will raise mash temp to mid mid-150s° and hold for 20 minutes. Then infuse with water to mash out (or decoct again with a thin decoction). Oh, and keep your water:grain ratio somewhere between 1.75-2.25 qts/lb (overall).

-Your hop schedule... I'd add the hops at 60 min. as Sacch. said and then add the 0.5 oz at 1 min. Many Helles recipes don't call for any other hop additions other than bittering, but I've found that a little bit for aroma is wonderful in the finished beer... just enough to sense it as you raise the glass to your mouth and think you're going to get a little hop flavor, but alas it's the maltiness that shines through:).
 
Helles is just about my favorite style and I am lining up my third. I have enjoyed plenty of liters from many of the producers in Munich so I think I have a good handle on how it should taste. I think that a touch of hops both for aroma and flavor is appropriate. On my first attempt I only included a bittering addition and I think it lacked the neccessary hop character. I also believe a portion of carapils gets it closer. For my first attempt I tried mostly pilsner and the rest munich. It was far too dry. I do not know whether a decoction mash will give you a better result.

The Helles entry in the Classic Beer Styles series includes a number of recipes. Almost all of them involve a small percentage of carapils and the remainder pilsner malt. Only the percentage really changes. One may have a small portion of munich. I think that almost, if not all, of them include three hop additions.
 
Thank Mensch

I was planning on pulling the decoctions per BeerSmith, I just put the 1/3 number in as an approximation and filler.

I read that you get a better benefit from the protein rest at lower ratios, that is why I have it down around 1.1 for that rest. Do you suggest raising it to 1.75 for the Beta rest, and around 2.00 for the Alpha rest? I am fine with that.

I liked that schedule but am open for other ideas if you have a say against it... doesn't matter to me. I just don't want to cut any corners.

I think I may take your advise and skip the FWH. I haven't done it before and maybe it would be better to keep as little experimentation in this brew as possibble.

Thanks
 
Yeah this beer is all malt focused.. FWH really brings out a lot of hop flavor so I would avoid it, I just tapped my keg of a pale ale I FWH'd with centennial and it's a total centennial flavor bomb.
 
I read that you get a better benefit from the protein rest at lower ratios, that is why I have it down around 1.1 for that rest. Do you suggest raising it to 1.75 for the Beta rest, and around 2.00 for the Alpha rest? I am fine with that.
That's true, but I believe the benefit is a better preservation of the beta/alpha amylase enzymes. They "survive" better in a thicker mash protein rest. So, I'd keep your protein rest (which at 133°F is really a "protein/saccharification rest") thick (but not too, too thick). I just wanted to point out that Helles are better when brewed with an overall thinner mash than most homebrewers are used to doing. That rest at 133° will have some saccharification going on too, which is why you could skip the 145° rest.

I looked at brewing Helles as a journey. I had New Brewing Lager Beer and Dornbusch's Helles book. I brewed 4 batches in 6 months, each time making a slight change to ingredients/methods. If you have as much attention to detail as you seem to have it will turn out great no matter which mash schedule you go with. Then next time you can try a different method. Whichever way you choose, keep us posted. I'd like to see how it turns out.

Tech211 has a good point about Cara-pils. Although certainly not necessary, a tad in your recipe might be good because I would expect you to get fairly high attenuation pitching on a yeast cake... and that Cara-pils would add a little body back to it. But I still question Dornbusch's recipes with flavor hop additions. I just don't think it's necessary because a little bit of flavor will carry through from the bittering hops and anymore hop flavor than that and you're bordering on Pilsner territory.
 
What does everyone think about filtering the mash running before going into the kettle? It seems most of the big Bavarian breweries do this and claim it yields a cleaner beer. Have any of you done it? I won't have the facilities to do this, but I am curious.
 
What does everyone think about filtering the mash running before going into the kettle? It seems most of the big Bavarian breweries do this and claim it yields a cleaner beer. Have any of you done it? I won't have the facilities to do this, but I am curious.

The guys I would call the local experts of lager brewing in the beer club claim that a 20 minute vorlauf followed by an excruciatingly slow sparge will do quite nicely. If you are patient enough for that. :drunk:
 
Alright... This is getting brewed on June 13th!

Recipe: Helles
Brewer: Justin S. Talbot
Asst Brewer:
Style: Munich Helles
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (0.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 11.00 gal
Boil Size: 13.82 gal
Estimated OG: 1.049 SG
Estimated Color: 3.4 SRM
Estimated IBU: 17.1 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 78.00 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
4.0 oz Rice Hulls (0.0 SRM) Adjunct 1.33 %
17 lbs 12.0ozPilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 94.67 %
12.0 oz Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 4.00 %

2.50 oz Hallertauer Hersbrucker [4.00 %] (60 min)Hops 17.0 IBU
0.10 oz Hallertauer Hersbrucker [4.00 %] (1 min) Hops 0.0 IBU

1 Pkgs Bohemian Lager (Wyeast Labs #2124) [StarteYeast-Lager


Mash Schedule: Decoction Mash, Single
Total Grain Weight: 18.75 lb
----------------------------
Decoction Mash, Single
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
35 min Protein/Sacc rest Add 37.50 qt of water at 140.9 F 133.0 F
45 min Saccharification Decoct 12.50 qt of mash 155.0 F
10 min Mash out Add 13.18 qt of water at 210.0 F 168.0 F

...............................

Please let me know what you think. Suggestions? Comments?

Also, I am looking for a good Wiesn style Okteberfestbier recipe if anyone has one. Not a traditional Marzen beer, a lighter drinking beer typically served at the O-fest.

Thanks,
Justin
 
Also, I am looking for a good Wiesn style Okteberfestbier recipe if anyone has one. Not a traditional Marzen beer, a lighter drinking beer typically served at the O-fest.

Helles was my O-fest beer last year, they drink that stuff by the liter over in Germany so I thought it was the most appropriate. September is still hot here so I'm not in the mood for a Maerzen anyway.

Recipe looks awesome. I prefer the herbal nature of Saaz myself, but if you like the floral-ness of the Hallertau by all means carry on. :)

The 34/70 strain (WY2124 / WLP830) is one of my favorite yeast strains, it makes an amazingly clean and malty beer.
 
Looks good BK... except those rice hulls are so non-Reinheitsgebot-y!:D

I like your mash schedule. Although I will say that I've really come to like the Hochkurz mash schedule. I recently brewed a German pils using it and it will be ready to drink tomorrow night. All indications are that it is awesome, but I have yet to see the foam stability for it.

Also, I don't know if you saw my thread on Saflager W-34/70, but I brewed the aforementioned Pils with it and it is awesome. I don't plan on using liquid lager yeast again for a long time. It was so nice not to have to make a huge starter and it tastes the same (if not even cleaner, probably due to better pitch rate than my starters were) as WLP830 (and, therefore Wyeast 2124).
 
Yeah I guess I could get rid of the rice hulls. I just use them as habit now.

I think I will try the dry yeast, it is easier and the cost should be about equal. Mr. malty says I need to pitch 50 grams of dry yeast for a 1.050 lager. Crazy.
 
Mr. malty says I need to pitch 50 grams of dry yeast for a 1.050 lager. Crazy.

Really? I definitely have my reserves about the reality of the results of that calculator, but I just ran the numbers and came up with 23 grams per 5.25 gallons with a production date as far back as 1/1/09. All I can say is that I pitched 23 grams into ~5.5 gallons and it came out clean as a whistle with good attenuation (76%).
 
I like your mash schedule. Although I will say that I've really come to like the Hochkurz mash schedule. I recently brewed a German pils using it and it will be ready to drink tomorrow night. All indications are that it is awesome, but I have yet to see the foam stability for it.

Also, I don't know if you saw my thread on Saflager W-34/70, but I brewed the aforementioned Pils with it and it is awesome. I don't plan on using liquid lager yeast again for a long time. It was so nice not to have to make a huge starter and it tastes the same (if not even cleaner, probably due to better pitch rate than my starters were) as WLP830 (and, therefore Wyeast 2124).

I've also been very happy with the Hochkurz mashes I've done for 3 Helles, just using straight german pils malt and 2124 or 2206.
Basically following this and skipping the 133F step.
Decoction mash - Home Brewing Wiki

I'd like to compare my Helles to some from Munich, but I don't really trust any light lagers travelling the globe to be representative of what I'd drink on draft in beer gardens. Maybe I'll have to take mine there :mug:
 
I brewed a similar (to your recipe) Helles on Saturday using a Hochkurz mash (added an acid rest just to see if there was any positive difference). I've also been step-mashing my German light lagers recently because after many decoctions, I tried a step-mash on a German Pils and it is malty as all get-out and the color is a little brighter. And my attenuation was slightly better (FG = 1.011 instead of 1.012-1.013), but that may have been from a better pitching rate with W34/70 than what I used to do with WLP830.
 
This turned out nice, but it is too light to be a Helles. I am calling a blonde lager because that is what it is.

Blonde_Upon_a_Time.png
 
Well, I suppose the color would be in range but on the very lightest end. Gravity was too low because I made the stupid mistake of not boiling down to my target volume... doh! It was a 14 hour brewday though so I cut myself some slack. I ended up at 1.042 instead of 1.048.

Then, I pitched my dry yeast unhydrated and I think that screwed it up a bit. It is to fruity and not malty enough to be a good Helles IMO. It is however, a rather good blonde lager.
 
Well, I suppose the color would be in range but on the very lightest end. Gravity was too low because I made the stupid mistake of not boiling down to my target volume... doh! It was a 14 hour brewday though so I cut myself some slack. I ended up at 1.042 instead of 1.048.

Then, I pitched my dry yeast unhydrated and I think that screwed it up a bit. It is to fruity and not malty enough to be a good Helles IMO. It is however, a rather good blonde lager.

Bummer. There's always next time and it's still good beer.

I think the BJCP guidelines are a bit off on the color of a Helles. The 3-5 SRM range is slightly high. Maybe 2-4 or 2-5 SRM would be better. If one brews a Helles with just German Pilsener malt (which I've seen with a °L as low as 1.8) and Cara-pils, you can definitely get under 3 SRM in the final beer even with a 90 min. boil... and it's still a Helles.
 
How's the foam retention? I was worried you'd lack that because of the extended rest at 140F. (I don't advise "protein rests" longer than 15 minutes, 20 tops; more than that, in my experience, degrades too much protein and negatively impacts foam.)

Bob
 
How's the foam retention? I was worried you'd lack that because of the extended rest at 140F. (I don't advise "protein rests" longer than 15 minutes, 20 tops; more than that, in my experience, degrades too much protein and negatively impacts foam.)

Bob

I'll take some pictures tonight. I was under the impression that the elevated protein/sacc rest avoided many of the problems of the extended 120 protein rest???

I used an enhanced decoction on a recent beer and really liked that profile. Basically I took a huge decoction while the main mash was in the acid rest range, added a small amount of the decoction back to get a protein rest at 120. Let it rest for 10 minutes, then added more decoction back in to reach my sacc rest temp. It worked awesome and was really easy to control.
 
Perhaps the elevated rest does have that function. I've never used your method, personally. It's interesting to get first-hand accounts of any possible impact.

Bob
 
So here is this years attempt. I am brewing on Sunday and the 9L starter is spinning like mad!

Style: Munich Helles
TYPE: All Grain


Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 11.00 gal
Boil Size: 12.72 gal
Estimated OG: 1.048 SG
Estimated Color: 4.3 SRM
Estimated IBU: 17.5 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
17.40 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 91.25 %
1.19 lb Carapils (Briess) (1.5 SRM) Grain 6.25 %
0.48 lb Melanoidin (Weyermann) (30.0 SRM) Grain 2.50 %
2.53 oz Hallertauer Hersbrucker [4.00 %] (60 min)Hops 16.8 IBU
0.28 oz Hallertauer Hersbrucker [4.00 %] (10 min)Hops 0.7 IBU
2.20 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
2.20 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Primary 3.0 days) Misc
3 Pkgs Bavarian Lager (Wyeast Labs #2206) Yeast-Lager


Mash Schedule: My Mash
Total Grain Weight: 19.07 lb
----------------------------
My Mash
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
40 min Maltose rest Add 26.69 qt of water at 148.8 F 140.0 F
40 min Dextrinization restAdd 11.00 qt of water at 207.4 F 158.0 F
20 min Step Decoct 9.70 qt of mash and boil it 170.0 F

........................................................................

The changes are I added some mello, I am only doing a single deco, and I am using a new yeast. We will see how it goes.
 
Looks good except... Why the decoction to mash-out? I was to the understanding that, in order to get the intended benefits from a single decoction, you decoct from protein/sacch. to sacch./dextrin. In decocting to mash out, all of the conversion is done and you're only using a thin (almost all liquid) decoction, so it's purpose is primarily just to raise the temp... practically the same as a hot water infusion.
 
Yeah, that is pretty much right. I figured I would pull it like a normal deco and cook it for 20 minutes to get some action out of it. I've never done it like that before, plus I put some mello in there. Who knows. Just screwing around really.
 
Last years Helles was again a failure. Good beer but not a Helles. I am going to do an enhanced double deco without the melo malt this weekend. I am also going to use Saaz as the tiny flavor addition and ferment with Budvar Lager Wyeast 2000.

Here is the recipe:

Recipe: Helles II
Style: Munich Helles
TYPE: All Grain

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 4.00 gal
Boil Size: 5.02 gal
Estimated OG: 1.049 SG
Estimated Color: 3.9 SRM
Estimated IBU: 18.9 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 65.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
7.60 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 93.83 %
0.50 lb Carapils (Briess) (1.5 SRM) Grain 6.17 %
1.00 oz Hallertauer Hersbrucker [4.00 %] (60 min)Hops 18.2 IBU
0.10 oz Saaz [4.00 %] (10 min) Hops 0.7 IBU
0.80 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
0.80 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Primary 3.0 days) Misc
1 Pkgs Budvar Lager (Wyeast Labs #2000) [CulturedYeast-Lager


I will be doing a enhanced double deco:
Mash_diagram_double_decoction_enhanced.gif


And fermenting at 50º until 75% attenuation, raise to 65º for 4 days for D-rest, then down 5º a day until I reach 34º. Lager for one month or until flavor profile is desirable.

I promise to give a full report this time and to stay sober enough to do the recipe justice. :D
 
Last year I was drunk as hell at the end of a 13 hour brewday. I accidentally used Chinook, Columbus, and Amarillo for the bittering and flavor additions :drunk:

I called that beer Shark! Ninja! It was awesome, but again, not a Helles.
SharkNinja.png


And tap handle:
SharkNinjatap.png
 
The recipe and mash schedule looks good. I like to use a bock yeast for my Helles. It leaves a little fuller body than many of the other lager yeasts
 
Good luck... I know you've been working hard on a good Helles recipe. I've been drinking a lot of Augustiner and Weinstephaner lately, so I've been tweaking my helles recipe.. It's been coming out pretty good.
 
i love this thread, i've been brewing helles literally non-stop for 3 years and it's one tough SOB to get just right. keep at it!
 
Back
Top