March pump 809 priming success

Just wrapped up my second straight brew day without a single issue priming my march pumps. I have 2 pumps on my single tier system that I usually have to break my prime about 8 times throughtout the brewday including cleaning.

I might have been lucky but I really think i've found something that works for me that i thought i pass along.

After reading all the threads about priming i've always just done what i've read. Open transfer vessel valve fully open, crack output side of pump and open liquid supply and wait for liquid to flow through output side before running pump. My pump head orientation has the output facing north. This has been hit or miss for me.

I discovered by accident that if i connected my hoses to both the input and output ports of the pump leaving the output port wide open as well as the transfer vessel port wide open, all i have to do is slam open the liquid port let gravity do the rest and once i hear liquid moving thru the pump give it 2 more full seconds and turn the pump on.

Thats it, i've now done it about 16 times over the last 2 brewdays without a single issue or outburst of fustration do to pumps not priming.

Sent from my iPhone using HB Talk

I've had some issues with my March 809 pump. I have it mounted on a two tier brew stand and it is lower than both the pots. The pumps input and output sides are parallel to the floor. Sometime, especially with boiling hot wort or water, I don't get any flow. I get and initial surge and then a pulsing action but no flow. I thought i was getting air in the line around the PVC coupler but I swapped it out with a SS coupler. That seemed to work until last weekend when I had the same problem again. Unknown as to the culprit. All of a sudden it just started working again. What's up?

SOB_OCDAVE said:

I've had some issues with my March 809 pump. I have it mounted on a two tier brew stand and it is lower than both the pots. The pumps input and output sides are parallel to the floor. Sometime, especially with boiling hot wort or water, I don't get any flow. I get and initial surge and then a pulsing action but no flow. I thought i was getting air in the line around the PVC coupler but I swapped it out with a SS coupler. That seemed to work until last weekend when I had the same problem again. Unknown as to the culprit. All of a sudden it just started working again. What's up?

Click to expand...

Try rotating the pump head 90 deg with the output pointing straight up. When priming the pump open the output valve all the way on the pump and hold the output hose vertical if possible before connecting to any fittings. You know that the system is primed properly when the liquid level in the output hose is the same level as the source vessel.

That plus you need the larger impellers. Since I went to these impellers, I have yet to have any priming issues. Before I was suck starting that schit like a cheap Bangkok hooker.

@2lflat4: I have looked at other positions but the issue here is the brew stand is a Bayou Classic L-shaped stand. It has a burner that folds up when not in use. The pump sits about 3-4 inches off the floor and there is not enough room to turn it like you mentioned. It is pretty much the only way to mount it unless I raise the whole brew stand off the floor. That, BTW, is a future project. I want to put the stand on casters or some other platform. Thanks for the help.

Irrenarzt said:

That plus you need the larger impellers. Since I went to these impellers, I have yet to have any priming issues. Before I was suck starting that schit like a cheap Bangkok hooker.

Click to expand...

What larger impellers?

There is a thread with part numbers here. The thread with the guy from March. Look for it.

Holy crap!! It took me a couple of months to finally get one of the new impellers (back ordered for ever it seemed). But wow, what a difference. Primed right up, and really improves the speed. My RIMS has a new life!!

We have plenty of the 815 impellers here at the factory. (part# 0809-0107-0200) Most distributors will wait till they get enough of an order to get their discount rates before placing an order...that could be why they are telling you they are on back order to give them some time...

-Walter

Is the impeller different on the new high flow model or is that another upgrade?

Jsuds said:

Is the impeller different on the new high flow model or is that another upgrade?

Click to expand...

Are you reffering to the more beer HF model? That has the 815 impeller inside it that i mention above.

-Walter

Simplicity:

The 1/4" valve is a bleeder to prime the pump

OneHoppyGuy, Hope its ok with you, i took your picture and drew on it for the rest of the forum to see what’s going on with the pump when they are mounted in that configuration.

The orange line i drew across the pump represents the top part of the inlet line going into the pump. When you open your fill valve from the brew kettle, the beer will come flowing in and flood the pump head.....problem is the outlet is on the bottom....and you have an air pocket trapped at the top of the pump (Shown by the red circle)
When you start the pump up, the impeller starts to spin and starts to mix the air in with the liquid in the pump head and you get cavitation. Sometimes if the air pocket is smaller due tot he rush of incoming liquid, it can push most of the air out on start up and you don't have problems. Easiest thing you can do is take those 4 Phillips screws out, rotate the pump head 180* so the outlet is pointing up and re-plumb and it should work every time.

-Walter

No wonder the 'Out' is printed upside down!
Walter,
Thank you for the info. I've never thought to try it the reverse. Learn something new every day.
Reason I have been mounting them outlet down is for routing the plumbing.
Guess I need to rethink the plumbing.

Hey Walter, how much are the 815 impellers and they will fit in the 809 housing?

They have a list price of $24 and will fit any of the 809 housings. We do not sell direct so you would need to contact a local distributor to get one.

-Walter

Thanks Walt. I found it online and ordered the bigger impeller and a new o ring.

flananuts said:

Thanks Walt. I found it online and ordered the bigger impeller and a new o ring.

Click to expand...

Sounds good. You usually dont need to replace the o-ring unless you damage it taking it apart or it gets pinched. If you want to replace it for peace of mind then just keep the old one around for a spare.

-Walter

I've actually had a lot of problems with this pump and I've had to pull it apart a number of times. The washer on the spindle have deteriorated on me more than once and I've clogged it a few times as well. I now have a ss wye in front that keeps the big pieces from passing through.

If your wearing out that thrust washer prematurely, then it usually signals a suction side issue. Do you have allot of grains/hops clogging the drain of the kettle slowing/choking down the liquid getting into the pump maybe?

-Walter

It's possible that was the case in the past. My false bottom is now 1/2" pick up so the flow is better. I typically mash around 31 lbs of grain and pull from the run to the pump then into a copper counter flow heat exchanger back up to the tun. I found a harder washer at my local store and i have not had that issue in a while.

Ah ok

-Walter

I did. I just put in the 815 impeller and replace the washer and I'm very impressed with the flow rate improvement. I'll post a picof the pump positioning so you can tell me if I can improve it.

WalterAtMarchPump said:

OneHoppyGuy, Hope its ok with you, i took your picture and drew on it for the rest of the forum to see what’s going on with the pump when they are mounted in that configuration.

The orange line i drew across the pump represents the top part of the inlet line going into the pump. When you open your fill valve from the brew kettle, the beer will come flowing in and flood the pump head.....problem is the outlet is on the bottom....and you have an air pocket trapped at the top of the pump (Shown by the red circle)
When you start the pump up, the impeller starts to spin and starts to mix the air in with the liquid in the pump head and you get cavitation. Sometimes if the air pocket is smaller due tot he rush of incoming liquid, it can push most of the air out on start up and you don't have problems. Easiest thing you can do is take those 4 Phillips screws out, rotate the pump head 180* so the outlet is pointing up and re-plumb and it should work every time.

-Walter

Click to expand...

Walter, I'm new to the forum, and have the March 809. I am confused by the drawing/picture as I do not know where the input is coming from, nor where the output is going, and that in relationship to what you are telling us. Although I understand about the air pocket, are you saying to solve the issue, you "only" have to rotate the pump head 180*. But then you go on to say to "...re-plumb and it is should work" What do you mean by re-plumb?

On a related question, should the IN & OUT of my pump be horizontal or vertical? If vertical, should the IN be on top, and the OUT on the bottom, or doesn't it matter?

Thanks.

garysherck said:

Walter, I'm new to the forum, and have the March 809. I am confused by the drawing/picture as I do not know where the input is coming from, nor where the output is going, and that in relationship to what you are telling us. Although I understand about the air pocket, are you saying to solve the issue, you "only" have to rotate the pump head 180*. But then you go on to say to "...re-plumb and it is should work" What do you mean by re-plumb?

On a related question, should the IN & OUT of my pump be horizontal or vertical? If vertical, should the IN be on top, and the OUT on the bottom, or doesn't it matter?

Thanks.

Click to expand...

You can rotate the head at will for your application (read any orientation). Most of us mount them with the inlet facing down and the outlet facing up.

You don't need to know where the hoses are going. Just that the pump is located below the source container.

What i meant by "re-plumb" is that if you rotate the pump head then the plumbing changes due to the fact the lines would now be on the wrong ports of the pump if you kept everything the same. I.E. the feed line from the pot would be connected to the output of the pump and visa-versa.
The in/out of your pump as it comes right out of the box (assuming you have the model with the mounting base) will have the pump mounted horizontal. And if you look at the pump head on you will notice that the outlet is slightly higher then the inlet to help air leave the pump. Rotating the pump head is strictly for either helping in plumbing up the pump or when mounting it in different orientations.
Most times the ideal setup for most people, if they have the room for it, would be to have the pump head clocked so its vertical, with the outlet facing up or at the top of the pump with the inlet at the bottom. When liquid fills the feed line and then the pump head, the air will travel to the highest point it can. And will go out the top of the pump and into the outlet line.

-Walter

Btw the thrust washer wasn't trashed that I changed but damn near gone. I think my false bottom doesn't leave enough space and I have been mashing thicker and a finer crush. The other thing that happened a few times was that I clogged my filter in the wye. Question is should I really be that concerned about grain particles passing through the pump head?

WalterAtMarchPump said:

Most times the ideal setup for most people, if they have the room for it, would be to have the pump head clocked so its vertical, with the outlet facing up or at the top of the pump with the inlet at the bottom. When liquid fills the feed line and then the pump head, the air will travel to the highest point it can. And will go out the top of the pump and into the outlet line.

-Walter

Click to expand...

I am almost there. (I will try to upload 4 pictures of my Model 809 to better understand my situation)

I have the room to mount the pump Vertical; however, in reading your response, I want to be sure of my mounting. I know you have said that it is critical to have the Outlet at the highest level of setup. My question is this: Is the motor on the Top or the Bottom of the Outlet/Inlet openings?

Pics #1 & 2 are Horizontal, and do not apply to my setup.

#3 has the motor at the Top, which means the Outlet is at the highest level. *This is the setup I think you are recommending for a Vertical configuration.

#4 has the motor at the Bottom, which means the Outlet is NOT at the highest level.

Thanks for being patient and understanding.

How is it that 1 and 4 are not the same?

Horizontal orientation is referring to the motor shaft. Most folks mount the pump with the motor horizontal with the outlet up and the inlet down.

The pump head can also be placed in an opposite orientation, but is not recommended due to the accumulation of air bubbles in the pump head, as has been previously discussed.

The other 2 orientations of the pump head are horizontal with the inlet on the left and the outlet on the right, or the inlet on the right and the outlet on the left. This can also lead to the accumulation of air bubbles in the pump head which can result in cavitation of the pump head - also previously discussed.

So that leaves us with the other pump motor shaft orientation which is vertical. There are 2 options here with the pump head on top or the pump head on the bottom. The direction of the inlet and outlet, i.e. north, south, east, west, etc, does not matter.

Since the pump head is flooded or fills from the middle and the outlet offset from this toward the motor, I would think that with the pump motor in the vertical position having the pump head on the bottom would result in the exit of air bubbles from the pump head resulting in no cavitation.

The objective is to not have the accumulation of air bubbles in the pump head. If you know which way is up, you can probably figure it out.

Walter, correct me if I'm wrong.

You are right. #1 is a top view, but it is the same as #4, which is a front view. (I need to learn how to write notes on the pictures) When I brewed extract, my pump was flat on a 2 by 6 board so that is where I am coming from. Now, I am trying to go AG.

Thanks you explanation, which is very clear. I now understand "Horizontal orientation is referring to the motor shaft." From you explanation, I now see there are really 4 horizontal orientations, and 2 vertical orientations.

Although I could mount either way, I will mount the pump with motor shaft horizontal, with the outlet up and the inlet down. In the earlier picture, I saw what looked like an aluminum shroud, which I will use, to protect the motor windings from any water damage. Thanks for the clarification.

stlbeer said:

So that leaves us with the other pump motor shaft orientation which is vertical. There are 2 options here with the pump head on top or the pump head on the bottom. The direction of the inlet and outlet, i.e. north, south, east, west, etc, does not matter.

Since the pump head is flooded or fills from the middle and the outlet offset from this toward the motor, I would think that with the pump motor in the vertical position having the pump head on the bottom would result in the exit of air bubbles from the pump head resulting in no cavitation.

Click to expand...

When mounting the the unit in a vertical position, the only/best way to do so would be with th epump head on the top of the motor. Reason being is that the impeller magnet sits inside that stainless rear shell (if you have taken the pump apart you know what i'm talking about) If you mount the unit with pump head on the bottom and motor on top you have positioned that stainless shell so it holds air in it. (Picture a top hat so to speak) The pump will still move liquid...and it may at times cavitiate on you....but the bigger picture is that with it running dry on the back side it will not be able to get cleaned out completely of all your beer and it will start to crystalize the beer between the shaft and the impeller and will start to bind on you eventually resulting in a seized impeller and no flow.
I know most people dont like to mount the pump head above the motor for the simple fact that if it leaks is gets all over the motor! But thes realy the only position you can mount it in a vertical state that you can get all the sir out of the pump.
I am going to TRY and make a short video for you guys explaining mounting and positioning of the pump and post it up on Youtube so it will be easier to understand.

-Walter